Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[curiouskarmadog]

Here is some content for you boberz, clear stances

Nick's wagon is bad. (no amished, I didnt fucking say he was town, just saying i dont think he is as scummy as others)

Esp's wagon is understandable, but also bad. (no amished, i didnt fucking say he was town, just saying I dont think he is as scummy as others)

Sera wagon is good and needs more support not fucking Foses.

Amished is also a good wagon, but not as good as the above.

something about dybeck is also rubbing me wrong (starting today), but that wagon is not as good as the above.

Boberz..you are quick to point fingers, so I would like to see some solid stances from you in your next post.

[curiouskarmadog]

Espy...I need to reread Espy, I'm starting to wonder if he's town.

if you think he might be at town and you have him close to -1 (your vote made -2)...why not unvote till you are sure.

this is a bullshit wagon...

Sera needs a wagon now.

[boberz]

I have also been tickled by ckd recently who I dont think has contributed much recently. The best example was the last post where he moaned at people for FOSing without reasoning but then voting without an obvious reason. He hardly tried to stimulate discussion.

really is that what I did?..or did I comment that "fos"es should be votes?...

Well fair enough you did do what you said, but unqualified votes are bad aswell as unqualified votes.

---

You say I am quick to point fingers, I was actually very slow deliberately avoiding what amished was getting at for quite a while. Because I knew as soon as I raised suspicion on somebody I would be shouted hypocrite at, unfortuantly it does not detract from your or anybody elses scumminess.

Sera wagon would be good I suppose, so

vote Sera

dybeck has been rubbing me up the wrong way for a long time but I read him and found nothing ssubstantial.

A wagon on you would also be good.

I would not support an Amished wagon.

I still dont know about nick and esp.

[curiouskarmadog]

Sera wagon is good and needs more support not fucking Foses.

Amished is also a good wagon, but not as good as the above.

actually I am reversing this order....I forgot Sera's placement on the bv lynch...plenty of times he could have come off of it to push a richard lynch (day 1) with little hassle to save BV...

unvote, vote Amished...

Amished is a much better wagon.

though, I still want an answer to the question, Sera, if you think Espy could be town, why not unvote him till you figure it out...you had him at -2.

[curiouskarmadog]

ewwww...cross post...

why are you against a amished wagon?

[boberz]

I have just at no point considered him scummy. It is hard to prove a negative if that makes sense so I cannot point to a specific incident but he looks ok to me.

[farside22]

CKD: I just don't see how amish is scum. I'm not getting the scum vibe and I dont' see a case on him.
Why is Esp wagon bad?

[Patrick]

Votecount

Albert B. Rampage (2) -- Espeonage, dybeck
Espeonage (6) -- Faraday, NickF227, Jahudo, farside22, Seraphim, Amished
NickF227 (2) -- Javert, Albert B. Rampage
Seraphim (1) -- boberz
Amished (1) -- curiouskarmadog

Not voting: Ojanen
13 alive, 7 to lynch.

Deadline: 26th of May

[dybeck]

I'm fairly neutral on Espeonage. He hasn't said anything that's particularly tripped my scumdar, but he hasn't said anything much of substance at all - which in itself should probably have tripped my scumdar.

Not itching to hammer while we're a way from deadline and I'm still convinced that a Faraday or Albert wagon is better.

[Ojanen]

Do not

, do not,

DO NOT

hammer Espy now.

Just LOOK at his wagon:

Espeonage (6) --

Faraday, NickF227, Jahudo

,

farside22

, Seraphim,

Amished

The three first votes constitute

exactly

the 3 the long time counter-wagoners on Richard to bv.

RichardGHP

(5) --

Porochaz

, Faraday,

Sando

, Jahudo,

bv310

bv310

(5) --

Papa Zito, Anon

, Seraphim, Espeonage,

farside22

RichardGHP

(7) --

Porochaz

, Faraday,

Sando

, Jahudo,

bv310

, NickF227,

Pomegranate

bv310

(5) --

Papa Zito, Anon

, Seraphim, Espeonage,

farside22

RichardGHP

(7) --

Porochaz

, Faraday,

Sando

, Jahudo,

bv310

, NickF227,

Pomegranate

bv310

(6) --

Papa Zito, Anon

, Seraphim, Espeonage,

farside22

, curiouskarmadog

RichardGHP

(7) --

Porochaz

, Faraday,

Sando

, Jahudo,

bv310

, NickF227,

Pomegranate

bv310

(8) --

Papa Zito, Anon

, Seraphim, Espeonage,

farside22

, curiouskarmadog,

RichardGHP

, Albert B. Rampage

RichardGHP

(8) --

Porochaz,

Faraday,

Sando

, Jahudo,

bv310

, NickF227,

Pomegranate

, Javert

bv310

(7) --

Papa Zito, Anon

, Seraphim, Espeonage,

farside22

, curiouskarmadog,

RichardGHP

RichardGHP

(9) --

Porochaz

, Faraday,

Sando

, Jahudo,

bv310

, NickF227,

Pomegranate

, Javert, boberz

bv310

(7) --

Papa Zito, Anon

, Seraphim, Espeonage,

farside22

, curiouskarmadog,

RichardGHP

RichardGHP

(7) --

Porochaz

, Faraday,

bv310

, NickF227,

Pomegranate

, Javert, boberz

bv310

(7) --

Papa Zito, Anon

, Seraphim, Espeonage,

farside22

, curiouskarmadog, RichardGHP

RichardGHP

(6) --

Porochaz

, Faraday,

bv310

, NickF227,

Pomegranate

, boberz

bv310

(8) --

Papa Zito, Anon

, Seraphim, Espeonage,

farside22

, curiouskarmadog,

RichardGHP

, Albert B. Rampage

RichardGHP

(6) --

Porochaz

, Faraday,

bv310

, NickF227,

Pomegranate

, boberz

bv310

(7) --

Papa Zito

, Seraphim, Espeonage,

farside22

, curiouskarmadog, RichardGHP, Albert B. Rampage

RichardGHP

(7) --

Porochaz

, Faraday,

bv310,

NickF227,

bv310

(6) --

Papa Zito

, Seraphim, Espeonage,

farside22

, curiouskarmadog,

RichardGHP

RichardGHP

(7) --

Porochaz

, Faraday,

bv310

, NickF227,

Pomegranate

, boberz, Albert B. Rampage

bv310

(5) --

Papa Zito

, Seraphim, Espeonage,

farside22

, curiouskarmadog

RichardGHP

(6) --

Porochaz

, Faraday,

bv310

, NickF227,

Pomegranate

, boberz

bv310

(4) --

Papa Zito,

Seraphim, Espeonage, curiouskarmadog

RichardGHP

(7) --

Porochaz

, Faraday,

bv310

, NickF227,

Pomegranate

, boberz,

Sando

bv310

(5) --

Papa Zito

,

Seraphim, Espeonage, curiouskarmadog,

Anon

RichardGHP

(4) --

Porochaz

, Faraday,

bv310

,

Pomegranate

bv310

(10) --

Papa Zito

, Seraphim, Espeonage, curiouskarmadog,

Anon

,

RichardGHP

, NickF227, boberz,

farside22

,

Sando

RichardGHP

(3) -- Faraday,

bv310

,

, boberz

bv310

(10) --

Papa Zito, Seraphim

, Espeonage, curiouskarmadog,

Anon

,

RichardGHP

, NickF227,

farside22

,

Sando

, Amished,

Pomegranate

PLUS

, I'm not scum, I don't think Albert's either. Esp wagon also contains both other people who went for Pom end of D1.

Pomegranate

(4) -- Albert B. Rampage,

Jahudo, Amished

,

Ojanen

(One of the reasons I really don't like Amished in particular is contained in the above, btw.)


BAAAAAD wagon.

[Seraphim]

Unvote

@CKD

I didn't unvote Espy immediately because my uncertainity was not enough at that particular moment in time to unvote him...also, I didn't realize he had so many votes.

[Javert]

Unvote: NickF227, Vote: Seraphim

.

Seraphim, you put Espeonage at L-2 literally two posts after Patrick posted a vote count. I have a hard time believing you "didn't realize he had so many votes."

[Albert B. Rampage]

Unvote, vote Seraphim

One of my main suspects from yesterday.

[Amished]

@ckd: I wanted your opinion; do you really have to be a dick about it? Is it because I was pressing you for a hard stance that you decided to vote for me?

@OJ: You mean how I wasn't in the game until 6 vote counts from the end of your analysis? Where I then attacked Seraphim for 3 of the 6; and moved to Pom where you also were for a votecount in there? Also, if you're town, you're criticizing other people for doing what you did before you did it (voting Pom)? How does that follow, logically? The last time I saw somebody pushing logic like that it wasn't from a townie. I'd really like the explanation behind that.

OJ's votecount is about the only thing that I've seen from Espy that makes me have a doubt that he's not scum. However, 1560 is pretty freaking hilarious.

Unvote
Vote: Seraphim

I was right! At least we still lynched scum D1.

/waits for OJ to say that I was early bussing a partner

[Seraphim]

I guess I deserve it if I get lynched for being lazy. I can't really muster up a defense given that there really isn't a case on me so I guess I'll just point this out:

I was on the bv wagon basically all day yesterday. I had plenty of time to try and derail it but I stayed on it and defended it against multiple attempts to derail it. Why, as bv's partner, would I do that?

[Ojanen]

@OJ: You mean how I wasn't in the game until 6 vote counts from the end of your analysis? Where I then attacked Seraphim for 3 of the 6; and moved to Pom where you also were for a votecount in there? Also, if you're town, you're criticizing other people for doing what you did before you did it (voting Pom)? How does that follow, logically? The last time I saw somebody pushing logic like that it wasn't from a townie. I'd really like the explanation behind that.

D1 Deadline in 2 days:

RichardGHP

(7) --

Porochaz

, Faraday,

bv310

, NickF227,

Pomegranate

, boberz,

Sando

bv310

(5) --

Papa Zito

, Seraphim, Espeonage, curiouskarmadog,

Anon

Espeonage (1) --

Ojanen

Seraphim (1) -- Javert
boberz (2) -- dybeck,

RichardGHP

Pomegranate

(4) --

farside22

, Albert B. Rampage, Jahudo, Amished
Not voting: Nobody


At this point a lot of people have been talking about Richard VI, not scum. Despite still having the most votes, it has clearly the least momentum. It's a dying wagon. For a moment it could swing Pom or bv (page 33). A collapse on bv then happens.
I would be surprised if everyone on Pom was town.
Yes, I did get on Pom. (After bv was already on L-1, might I add.)
It's a complete load of tosh that there's something hypocritical about me thinking her wagon has a bigger than average chance of having some scum on it.

/waits for OJ to say that I was early bussing a partner

Clarify what you're referring to (Sando?) and why you felt compelled to say this.

[Ojanen]

God I'm tired. Reference to Sera, I guess. Explain still, please.

[Amished]

@OJ: You mean how I wasn't in the game until 6 vote counts from the end of your analysis? Where I then attacked Seraphim for 3 of the 6; and moved to Pom where you also were for a votecount in there? Also, if you're town, you're criticizing other people for doing what you did before you did it (voting Pom)? How does that follow, logically? The last time I saw somebody pushing logic like that it wasn't from a townie. I'd really like the explanation behind that.

D1 Deadline in 2 days:

RichardGHP

(7) --

Porochaz

, Faraday,

bv310

, NickF227,

Pomegranate

, boberz,

Sando

bv310

(5) --

Papa Zito

, Seraphim, Espeonage, curiouskarmadog,

Anon

Espeonage (1) --

Ojanen

Seraphim (1) -- Javert
boberz (2) -- dybeck,

RichardGHP

Pomegranate

(4) --

farside22

, Albert B. Rampage, Jahudo, Amished
Not voting: Nobody


At this point a lot of people have been talking about Richard VI, not scum. Despite still having the most votes, it has clearly the least momentum. It's a dying wagon. For a moment it could swing Pom or bv (page 33). A collapse on bv then happens.
I would be surprised if everyone on Pom was town.
Yes, I did get on Pom. (After bv was already on L-1, might I add.)
It's a complete load of tosh that there's something hypocritical about me thinking her wagon has a bigger than average chance of having some scum on it.

/waits for OJ to say that I was early bussing a partner

Clarify what you're referring to (Sando?) and why you felt compelled to say this.

Ok, I'll put out both possibilities: everyone on Pom was town (as scum behavior is inherently unpredictable; else they'd be caught doing something utterly predictable) or one (or more!) person(s) on Pom other than I is scum. Farside, ABR and Jahudo are all still alive as well as me; what about them?

I will repeat what I said in the other game that I mentioned before about people trying to push wagon analysis further than it can be pushed: You have no idea what the scum as a group has in mind. They could all be scum of an unrevealed faction; or they could all be townies. No amount of statistics will ever be a sole predictor of scum behavior. Perhaps the scum were still on Richard despite it being a dying wagon, perhaps they were already bussing BV to try to gain town cred; perhaps they were pushing their own scum cases to stay out of a sticky situation.

You've been scum before, you know that your plans can go right out the window if a day starts wrong or changes halfway through to something unpredicted. I will not stand by idly while stupid accusations without anything else being brought before me if you actually wanted to make a case. Gut does not constitute a case. One vote analysis that has me not voting for two competing wagons while I wasn't in the game for a significant part of the time is not a case.

Put up or shut up.

That last sentence goes to you too, ckd.

The last paragraph refers to you apparently going out of your way to try to show that something that can't really be analyzed (one point of data; since you're mostly harping on the fact that I voted for Pom) through a vote analysis; so I'd expect you to try to twist my recent vote for Seraphim (pretty much caught scum at this point) and my initial vote for Seraphim into scum distancing for some unknown, stupid reason.

[Espeonage]

Unvote

I need to do some thinking.

[curiouskarmadog]

unvote Amished.

something about that last post seems town....I still think he is a bit scummish, but that last post, doesnt seem like someone trying to avoid heat...something about you play always makes me think you are scum...not sure why.

Sera, you could have been yelling about Richard lynch to be remembered for yelling about Richard's lynch..who knows.....I need to go back and reread Day1 (I disagree with Amished about reviewing votes, but I think OJ might be relying on it too much). I removed my vote because I remembered you not saying too much about where your vote was (thus if you wanted to switch you could have to richard without suspicion....see last post). However, if you were making a big deal about like you are suggesting...it doesnt look as town in my eyes...

where are we at in regards to the Sear wagon (vote count).

@Amished, were we ever in a game that you used vote analysis to push lynches?

[curiouskarmadog]

unvote

[curiouskarmadog]

ESP, I WANT YOUR NEXT POST TO ADDRESS THIS!!!

ABR for his fake countewrclaim then calling himself scum gambit.
Nick for the reasons i voted him yesterday.

In this game I am fairly useless. But honestly why do you guys keep me around when you find me scummy and non pro-town? In most of my other games I'm not. I suppose I am only just coming out of my newbie shell. It just so happened that I started this game while still a noob. Got myself in a position where I'm not into the game and have other games that are alot more interesting than this one.

why have you yet to address the post?...

Esp i understand where you are coming from with thinking ABR is scum (though, my reasonings were not just based on yesterday's actions)..

I would like to here you thought on this post in regards to ABR

that being said...ABRscum, could have done a couple other things too..he could have claimed town on someone, could have claimed town on richard (which would have again been suspected given the part of the claim about pom too)...he could have said he was blocked (also suspect, but more believeable given the no ABR kill)...hey could have claimed he was afraid to use strong mode again and used weak mode for no result...

there is a lot of things he could have done as scum, versus what he did do...this is all WIFOM..just need to think about it and reread.

so you are saying that "yes, you are useless in this game, though you are not in others?" and the "reason, you are useless in this game is because when it started you were new?"....if that is what you are saying, then why hasnt your playstyle changed in this game as you have gotten more experienced, like you are saying you are in other games? What are you doing in other games that you dont think you are doing here?

[Ojanen]

Farside, ABR and Jahudo are all still alive as well as me; what about them?

Farside is conf.town if Pom wasn't roleblocked N1, her play is town anyway. ABR is townier than you. Jahudo I remember liking but have currently no exact recollection why. His vote records aren't pretty. The thing about him is, though, that he's been an overcompensating überbusser in past. Too ugly here.

I will not stand by idly while stupid accusations without anything else being brought before me if you actually wanted to make a case. Gut does not constitute a case. One vote analysis that has me not voting for two competing wagons while I wasn't in the game for a significant part of the time is not a case.

Stuff I wasn't smitten about you inlude presence on Pom D1 as a follower and turning your vote to bv, lot of reads/cases I didn't agree with (which included Seraphim at the time D1), the way you never mentioned Sando at all but then followed ABR's lead after he wrote his case on him as a second vote starting with

... This is why I hate large games, I forget about all the scummy people that I want to dayvig from the day(s) before.

,
a smaller enthusiasm and not having this slightly maniatic treatment of details charasteristic to you while knowing you're sick of scum roles currently.
However I'm not voting/making a case larger than gut because I'm busy being utterly useless currently and don't really know. It's your exaggeration that your slot not being in the game during a period would be part of any point I'm trying to make, for example.
To sugar coat the uselessness, I haven't got a clear opinion on Seraphim, cause I've liked him in the past.

Why were the vote counts a point for Esp in your opinion?
Do you find a second hidden faction likely based on flavour and number of kills?

[Amished]

I was scum with you-town in LOST (didn't use votecounts as that implicated who I replaced) and scum with you-town in Mafia 107 (where I didn't use votecounts as that implicated who I replaced as well). 107 is the same one that I was referring to when I was arguing with your SK-neighbor Konowa about wagon analysis near the end of the game (when both scum were on the wagon he was talking about, yet he cleared my scum buddy for being on it as well).

The only game that I've used wagon analysis as an *addendum* to what I've thought about otherwise was when I helped to clear DDD in my mind in this game. Otherwise I caught scum after I was dead just through wagon analysis in a game over a year ago. I've seen it used as a primary tool wrongly too many times to make a judgment call solely based on that.

Counterwagons to scum I generally look towards as a good indicator of non-scum in single-*group-scum* games. If I pay attention enough (which I haven't especially been here; not to the normal standard that I hold myself to, anyways) or if somebody brings it up. If Richard were still alive I don't see me having pushed against his anti-town antics as scum motivated because of the drawn out controversy of that lynch; but I couldn't tell you who (if anybody) was a counter wagon to Sando. IIRC, he was pretty much rung up over the course of the day; but I could be wrong as well.

[Espeonage]

Sorry I missed that post. I have a tendancy to continue with the same play style throughout games. Once I start a game I will for the most part play that game through with the same mind set. The longer I play with that playstyle the harder it is for me to change that. Usually the way that RVS pans out will shape the way I play the whole game.

Take one of my finished games where I was the only non-american in the game. I had a different timezone to everyone and the game started while I was asleep. The game was almost out of RVS by the time I made my first post and for the whole game I played as an outsider. Contrast that with a game where I was the white horse of the town and you start to see how eratic my play is between games but stoic once in a game.

I don't want to replace out and that is why I just Unvoted. I want to take some time to mull over what has gone on and actually think about my vote instead of paying closer attention to my other games. Give me a few hours or so and I will come back and vote.