Riddle Me This! NY111 - mafia dead - Town wins!

[Anon]

More importantly now, what is your zoraster read?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

At first glance, Id say Richard's is prob a fakeclaim. Specially for the use of TOWN in the role claim and the odd "need a vc to check if I should claim" post.

In context of stupid newb town, rigidly sticking to "rules" like "don't claim 'till you're at L-1" is not odd. Also, I don't think the "Town" thing is relevent, since I'm guessing he just copied and pasted his role from his role PM and good mods make it clear to power roles the faction they're aligned with in their role PMs in order to avoid confusion.

My point was that its odd when someone makes that type of posts: "Ill go check if Im at range claim or not" since you could as well decide if you should claim or not without posting that.

Also why are you assuming things and answering for Richard?

Finally, who is your top suspect now?

Because he's demonstrably incapable of doing it himself and I'd prefer we not lynch people I'm pretty convinced are town.

Top suspect is undetermined, pending a re-read. This game is a mess, and I feel the need to reconnect with it properly.

[DeathNote]

Vote Count

Furcolow- mipe (L-8)
Yosarian2- Quagmire (L-8)
Quagmire- inHimshallibe (L-8)
Anon- iamausername, RichardGHP (L-6)
inHimshallibe- Furcolow (L-8)
RichardGHP- scottmany12, Yosarian2, zoraster (L-5)
VasudeVa- The Fonz (L-8)
Shanba- VasudeVa (L-8)
zoraster- Anon (L-8)

With 17 alive, its 9 to lynch.

Deadline is tomorrow at 10:00 P.M. unless a majority wishes an extension due to replacements.

~What is broken every time it's spoken?~

[VasudeVa]

@Fonz: What lynch? *snicker*

Mostly because of some discrepancies with my playstyle in other games as opposed to here. I mostly point out in my other games that I discuss more than the other players which should give me town cred. But here, I'm inactive as fuck primarily because of procrastination. With the sudden threat of a wagon, I felt like it's time to not procrastinate anymore.

Well, when I was looking for my vote which makes me obvtown, I saw the badbadbad Shanba vote. Hard to ignore when I had to analyze the all the votes that happened on that page.

@Shanba: Cool. Oh, may I point out that I like to ignore scumposting? I still hold to my belief that votes > explanations(since I'm a pretty gullible person IRL) and no matter how hard I look at it, I see a scummy vote. Someone who is not scum please defend him, so I'll go ahead and read your post. Scumbuddies do try too, so we know who to lynch tomorrow.

[Anon]

Mod, wish deadline extension.

[DeathNote]

On second thought, I will extend deadline 48 hours to 10:00 P.M. Wednesday night, central time. Hopefully I can find replacements but I have not had much luck thus far.

[Mr. Chaos]

Vote Count

Furcolow- mipe (L-8)
Yosarian2- Quagmire (L-8)
Quagmire- inHimshallibe (L-8)
Anon- iamausername, VasudeVa, RichardGHP (L-5)
inHimshallibe- Furcolow (L-8)
RichardGHP- scottmany12, Yosarian2, zoraster (L-5)
VasudeVa- The Fonz (L-8)
Shanba- VasudeVa (L-8)
zoraster- Anon (L-8)

With 17 alive, its 9 to lynch.

Deadline is tomarrow at 10:00 P.M. unless a majority wishes an extension due to replacements.

~What is broken every time it's spoken?~

Bro, you got Vas voting for Shanba and anon. Might want to fix that, unless he's some kind of double voting townie [/joke]

Anyways, I've had some time to think about it, and I've got an idea of how I want to do this.

Vote: Zoraster

If anything, this should get his attention to post more and wagon-jump less.

[The Fonz]

@Shanba: Cool. Oh, may I point out that I like to ignore scumposting? I still hold to my belief that votes > explanations(since I'm a pretty gullible person IRL) and no matter how hard I look at it, I see a scummy vote. Someone who is not scum please defend him, so I'll go ahead and read your post. Scumbuddies do try too, so we know who to lynch tomorrow.

The irony of this post is that Shanba came to the conclusion that Richard was more likely scum based on a similar kind of analysis to the one VV is doing here. He looked at the voting patterns, and concluded that all the scummiest players seemed to want ksun rather than Richard dead. To be honest, the case on Richard was pretty strong- I was strongly tempted to join that wagon, but figured that there was no good reason to want to keep ksun alive.
_________________
The thing about Shanba from my perspective is that there are so many layers of wifom to it. On the surface, his argument for why Richard looked more likely scum than ksun is very good. Below that, you've got the fact that distancing early then defending late is a very common scumbuddy pattern. Below that, you've got the fact that's a particularly unsubtle and blatant scumtactic more commonly employed by scum much less skilled than Shanba. Below that, the possibility that Shanba knew this, but felt that his argument on Richard was solid enough that it would stand up to scrutiny. Underneath this is the question of whether Shanba's efforts were likely enough to swing the lynch that it would be worth the effort and extra scrutiny it would bring once the alignments were known (if Richard is indeed town).
______________
TL/DR version: I'm far from sure that VV is right about Shanba, but this is a conversation worth having.

VV, if not you, then who on the ksun wagon is the most likely busser? Actually, that's a pretty good question for everyone.

@Anon: My read on Zoraster? Apart from vaguely recalling that he was on the mipe wagon, I can remember literally nothing this player slot has done all game. Lurking + one mildly scummy action = decent enough lynch.

Interesting that VasudeVa basically admits knowingly lurking in contrast to his town meta, then starting to contribute when a case was made against him. Actually, my gut says this is SKish rather than scummy.

[Yosarian2]

I'm here, after a wonderful weekend.

Anyway, looking at Richard's claim, I'm willing to at the very least wait a day and see if he can confirm his tracker claim tommorow. If he's telling the truth, it's very likely he'll have some confirming information. (Of course, scum trackers are also possible, ect.) Still, willing to wait a day on this, and if we're lucky we might get some information.

Unvote:Richard

Vote:Paltry Excuse

[Shanba]

I'm here, after a wonderful weekend. :)

Anyway, looking at Richard's claim, I'm willing to at the very least wait a day and see if he can confirm his tracker claim tommorow. If he's telling the truth, it's very likely he'll have some confirming information. (Of course, scum trackers are also possible, ect.) Still, willing to wait a day on this, and if we're lucky we might get some information.

Unvote:Richard

Vote:Paltry Excuse

I'd like to do the same thing on Richard, but I'm not very enthused by the alternatives; I've already voiced my misgivings about lynching paltry, and I have some misgivings about lynching VaVa too. I guess the zoraster wagon looks pretty inoccuous, but I don't want inoccuous, I want scummy. :/ I'm debating getting back on the wagon, but I'm not there yet.

I don't see any point in responding to VaVa if he's stated that he's not going to read my posts anyway.

[The Fonz]

Shanba, can you elaborate your misgivings on the VaVa wagon? Specifically, do you think, as he contends, his vote on the ksun wagon was particularly unbuslike?

[Shanba]

Fonz: The reason is that I'm having a hard time distinguishing the legit scummy from the simpy bad play on VaVa. Most of the day 1 badtheory stuff was garbage and I spent a lot of effort arguing against it at the time. Particularly things like his wagonning and the bad reasoning for his votes - that smells of inexperience rather than of scumminess. I acknowledge that he claimed that wagonning is the optimal scum tactic day 1 and that does make him significantly scummier in my eyes.

The problem I also have is that I've only really started looking at him at around the time that he's started attacking me. I know I have a tendency to bias in these cases, so I'm doubtful of my ability to read him correctly right now.

I agree with you that his vote on ksun is not particularly unbuslike. I also agree that some of that group you keep highlighting are the most likely to have been bussing. But I still have lingering doubts about whether there was bussing going on at all; my assumption is "probably yes" if richard turns up scum and "not so likely - much more likely to have scum in the residual mipe wagon" if Richard is town. So I see the case on him as at least partially a connection between him and Richard, and it cuts stronger Richard-> VaVa than VaVa->Richard. So I'd prefer to be lynching Richard.

[The Fonz]

The thing is, Shanba, none of those players you identified as uberwagonny, and probably scum, in justifying your move to the Richard wagon, could be described as 'good players.' So there's an issue in telling the scummy from the incompetent with all of them, and you you definitely were claiming to think that that group of players was scummy.

Note to self: Have completely forgotten about IAAUN and scot. Neither was particularly town.

[Shanba]

The thing is, Shanba, none of those players you identified as uberwagonny, and probably scum, in justifying your move to the Richard wagon, could be described as 'good players.' So there's an issue in telling the scummy from the incompetent with all of them, and you you definitely were claiming to think that that group of players was scummy.

Note to self: Have completely forgotten about IAAUN and scot. Neither was particularly town.

Yeah, that's the thing about VaVa; he seems particularly new to mafia, hence the day 1 spewing. Someone like Anon, for example, has at least been around for a period of time and has some idea of the mores and customs of this site. Even Richard seems like a more experienced player, to me.

I am wary of the possibility that VaVa was playing up his rawness, but I'm fairly certain that it wasn't all faked; for example, just a few posts up he made another disclaimer type statement ("I'm a pretty gullible person IRL") - from my experience of new players or players lacking in confidence, that's exactly the kind of thing that they're likely to say. And the mistakes that he's being castigated for are also the mistaked of the new - a predisposition for following the crowd.

Richard has been far more independent in his viewpoints when he's not been wagonning; he's need far less hand-holding, which tells me he is more comfortable with the game, and makes his wagonning more egregious. Do you see? Similarly Anon and IHSIB.

IAAUN and scot have disappeared, and so has quagmire. IAAUN and quag were striking me as town, though, so I'm not too worried (though I'd like them back). Scot was reading neutral/vaguely scummish so I'd like to see more off him.

[The Fonz]

Well, I did find Anon scummier than VaVa. But there's that pesky matter of him having made a claim that's suicidal for scum. I don't get 'raw newbie' from VaVa, as with Richard I get 'other site meta.' His playing of the newbie card on his own behalf feels cynical (as does his repeated use of the phrase 'town cred'- as if achieving town cred was the aim of his play). I get much more 'just a poor player' from Richard than from VaVa. Broadly, though, it's similar to the ksun/mipe dichotomy- they've been broadly similar, but Richard's copped a lot more heat for it.

[scotmany12]

Finals. Not a lot of time.

Willing to allow Richard the chance to prove his role, though even if he does there is always a possibility of a scum tacker.

Unvote, Vote: VasudeVa

Had problems with his actions during day one. Hated his constant play of the newbie card, and his scummy actions (such as pushing for a claim, which I still believe he would know is extremely anti-town if he has read the like ten games he has said he has). And while I believe that lurking by itself is not inherently scummy, when it is coupled with other scummy actions its pretty damning.

[zoraster]

Wagon jump less? I have been on the following wagons: scot, ksun, Richard, anon, Richard. In that order. My predecessor's only action the entire game was to vote Richard Massive (now played by The Fonz) I was never on the mipe wagon, as has been suggested.

Anyway, while not a paragon of activity, I haven't "wagon jumped." I've joined the lynch I think is the wisest choice.

But moving on.

unvote

vote: VasudeVa

I did a reread of his iso, and I think there is seriously something off with his posts. Mostly, I think it's his repeated insistence that he's town and that he's earned "town cred." It seems to me that I should be able to tell whether or not her has credibility with me, not the other way around. An example

It's this that I find scummy. Not that I don't see town from time to time insist that they're town, but rather that he's trying hard to insist that

I

think he's town... or at least should think he's town. It's not a collaborative type of thing to do; it's one that suggests he's got something to hide from the town.

[dahill1]

My thoughts pretty much echo Shanba's right now in terms of the Vas/Zoraster wagons.

I could totally go back to voting InHim in fact I think I will. Also I'd lynch Scot purely on the huge gut scum feeling I've been getting from him all game. If the Zoraster wagon needs votes to complete a lynch I'd probably put a vote there, but I'd prefer InHim or Scot.

unvote vote InHim

[Shanba]

I guess it's not entirely clear from my posts right now, but I do think VaVa is scummier than zoraster. My problem right now is that I want to be voting Richard (or possibly Anon, but now is not the right time for skhunting) and I'm not sure whether the tradeoff of more likely scum versus possible power role is worth it.

[dahill1]

I guess it's not entirely clear from my posts right now, but I do think VaVa is scummier than zoraster. My problem right now is that I want to be voting Richard (or possibly Anon, but now is not the right time for skhunting) and I'm not sure whether the tradeoff of more likely scum versus possible power role is worth it.

Oh. Well then I agree with the second part.

[Mr. Chaos]

Wagon jump less? I have been on the following wagons: scot, ksun, Richard, anon, Richard. In that order. My predecessor's only action the entire game was to vote Richard Massive (now played by The Fonz) I was never on the mipe wagon, as has been suggested.

Anyway, while not a paragon of activity, I haven't "wagon jumped." I've joined the lynch I think is the wisest choice.

But moving on.

unvote

vote: VasudeVa

I did a reread of his iso, and I think there is seriously something off with his posts. Mostly, I think it's his repeated insistence that he's town and that he's earned "town cred." It seems to me that I should be able to tell whether or not her has credibility with me, not the other way around. An example

It's this that I find scummy. Not that I don't see town from time to time insist that they're town, but rather that he's trying hard to insist that

I

think he's town... or at least should think he's town. It's not a collaborative type of thing to do; it's one that suggests he's got something to hide from the town.

Awesome, your back. Mission accomplished.

Anyways, I looked at the link you provided, and it does seem a little bit off. I still don't really want to lynch Vas, but I have no problem if we have to.

Anyways, thanks for posting again, Zor, this was some pretty good info.

unvote

[The Fonz]

I do find the Scot attack on VaVa interesting, as he seems to be entirely ignoring the reasons why Va is legitimately scummy in favour of the things which can be explained easily enough by his newness.

[inHimshallibe]

Dammit.

[inHimshallibe]

fine. whatever. I think we need a new day to spice things up a bit. Anon is as good a target as any who aren't Richard. And I don't have a ton of faith in the mod's ability to find a replacement for Anon in short order.

unvote. vote: anon

Oh, I don't like this post.

[inHimshallibe]

Deadline is in two days. Do you think you can successfully lead a lynch on VasudeVa with that type of "meh" attitude in that time?

unvote. Vote: RichardGHP

This guy is bad.

unvote
vote: zoraster

OK, so I'm seeing extremely late movement on D1 to the ksun wagon, an L-1 hop to Anon which seemed kind of "tack-on" to me, a comment on the time of Day instead of The Fonz's actual case against VaVa, and an unreasoned wagon hop onto RichardGHP. Bleh.