Pledge of Allegiance (Game Over! Page 76)

[Ojanen]

Yeah, what is this Gamma qt business?

Her argument against Parama was weak and late to the table, basically that Parama is scum because he is pushing the idea that he loves to be town. So what, you may say, if it gets a little discussion going? Well, the next part is that Parama tells farside that she's bandwagonning. farside essentially says that's not true, without bothering to check it out. Parama points to votes that were on him beforehand, and farside said that she missed one of them and one doesn't count.
So, ultimately, I think farside was just trying to slip her vote in for Parama and stir up trouble without really looking into it. If she really thought that Parama was lying to her, why didn't she just go back and verify it herself?

Red, you're wrong on your first sentence, farside's argument was that Parama is scum because he was pushing a terribad argument about me being scum because I asked people to tell why they picked town.
I don't get why you don't think she really thought she was the first on Parama and forgot the page 1 votes. Why deliberately fake something so easily checkable and so obviously counter-arguable.

Also, damn. Every time I go back to the early game, it irritates the crap out of me again that Parama flat out refuses to talk to me about why (direct quote): "you're looking for the most sincere responses so you can figure out who's lying and who's not [about being town]" is scummy and why said he decided to overall ignore me based on this.

Irritates the CRAP out of me.

COWARD

COWARD

COWARD!

[Fishythefish]

What would you say if I told you Gamma majorly scumslipped in our neighbor qt?

I would say you should paraphrase it.

LA until the 10th or 11th.
Right now I think that out of the 3 major wagons Phate and xvart are town. The latter wouldn't have been so stupidly stubborn on the whole QT shenanigans issue and certain things the former have said felt genuine.

xvart ( 8 ) Ellibereth LLamaFluff ojanen Nicodemus fishythefish charter UncertainKitten VP Baltar
I have a town read on everyone on the xvart wagon EXCEPT for...

##Unvote

##Vote: Fishy

A poor reason for voting. Townreads on people voting the same way as me are simply not a reason why I'm scum.

Why I'm voting xvart:
He asks obvious questions and makes minor/stretchy points a lot. It really feels like he is jumping on anything he sees in order to look like he's scumhunting, rather than taking the time to actually try and work out people's alignments. The obvious example is the QT thing, but there are a couple of others
1) Iso 1, criticising Jack for asking UK about a PR.
2) Parama's guessing the exact number of scum.
On these three issues, it feels like xvart really isn't bothering to think about the situation. For me, the continued stubbornness on the QT thing feels like he doesn't want to admit his error. I think this posting lots without thinking about what you are writing about is much more likely scum than town.

[The VP-me link] was mostly a declaration of once Balter flips scum, you're the first to go.

Cool. In that case we shall discuss it if and when that happens.

@Phate: you forgot ## in front of your RC vote.

[Ellibereth]

It's not bad logic. That wagon had scum on it and I think everyone else there is town.

[Phate]

Good call.

##Vote: RedCoyote

[Fishythefish]

@Elli: you might think the wagon is bad, and so has scum on it. But if lots of the players on it are town, it's not reasonable to automatically conclude the last one is scum - instead, you should be less sure that there is scum on the wagon.

It's like saying "1 coin in 5 almost always flips heads. I just flipped 4 tails in a row, so heads is certain to come up now.". Knowing (or rather thinking) that a bad wagon is largely town driven isn't a good reason to be sure about the other people on it.

[DrippingGoofball]

Fishy, the vote analysis holds REGARDLESS of the wagon flip. You may get more information after the flip, but even BEFORE the flip, it's deadly accurate. Even I, who started wagon analysis, couldn't beat as scum even if I had absolute control of my buddies' votes.

This being said, the response I expected from you is more along the lines of "

I'm town, so the scum is elsewhere on the wagon, how about so-and-so?

." Instead, you try to discredit the analysis unconvincingly.

Thank you for confessing scum. Would you like to bus someone as we lynch you?

[Fishythefish]

I don't understand your post at all, DGB. I think the argument "8/9 of that wagon look town, so the last is scum" is totally illogical. It's obviously also based on 8 tenuous assumptions, but I'm less bothered about that.

Are you saying that

every

wagon of 9 people has at least one scum on it?

[DrippingGoofball]

Has nothing to do with a player being the "last." You've seen it at work in Kingdom Hearts, or was it PYP1? It caught Cruciare quite squarely in endgame. I'm surprised to see you try to discredit it instead of protesting your townieness.

[Fishythefish]

I'm confused.

Sometimes, it's valid to say "more than likely, at least one scum would have bussed/lynched the townie/whatever. We know most of the alignments of the wagon are town; there is probably scum in the other ones". I tend to be very skeptical about such arguments - I don't think wagon composition is that predictable - but sometimes they work.

But applying this to an early game wagon is ridiculous on two counts. First, obviously, you don't know the alignments of anyone on the wagon. But the point I was making is that there is just no reason to think there is any particular number of scum on a wagon when we are just out of the RVS.

The case against me is:
1) There is always scum on a wagon (or maybe there is always scum on a bad wagon).
2) Everyone else on xvart's wagon is town.
therefore
3) Fishy is scum.

I think 1) and 2) are both clearly broken.

[Fishythefish]

Oh, and it was PYP1.

[Ellibereth]

Scan through past Large Themes. The early substantial wagons all have scum on them. At least I can't find one without.

[Ellibereth]

Is there any particular town read there that you dispute.

[Fishythefish]

It's generally a relatively protown bunch. I don't have reads on all of them, but none are scummy, apart from Nico, perhaps. But the point is that there are 7 reads there! You are declaring 7 people to be town in order to make your argument work. To make that argument make any sense at all, your reads have to be absurdly solid.

It's a subtle point, but actually it's irrelevant that wagons in other games have scum on them. How many 8 player wagons with 7 confirmed town (which is how you are treating them) had scum on them? It's just the same argument as "most strings of 8 coins have 1 head in them. The first 7 were tails - the last one is certain to be heads.".

[Gammagooey]

Did RC just post a giant quote wall in which he complained about short posts creating too much noise? Yes. At least he sees gamma as scummy.

What would you say if I told you Gamma majorly scumslipped in our neighbor qt?

To this hypothetical scenario, I would say that we are in fact not neighbors.

Instead of just saying oh no lurkers are scummy, have some individual shenanigans.

@Mod:Prod Cobalt please.

He just got replaced in a different game, I'm expecting him to be replaced here too.

Pops' last post looks like a joke to me, but pops using a mafia game to base a random # gen on to decide alignment and then

changing the numbers

is badstuffs, as previously stated by others.

However

Jazz currently has one post with absolutely nothing in it.
It's been 5 days since the game started.
Scum-Jazz in Mafia Reverberation viewtopic.php?t=13274&start=0 didn't put out any real reads on players until about the two-week mark, with the only real analysis in the posts was until then stating that she didn't see why one wagon was as big as it was.
Scum-Jazz there eventually averaged about a post a day, with 35 posts from Jan 23->Feb 25.
Scum-Jazz there also

Required surgery from a skiing accident

, resulting in her not being there at all for about another week.

In short: Jazz is posting even less than her scum meta with a skiing accident thrown in.

If Jack actually manages to get a wagon on him instead of 2-3 other lonely votes I'd be more than happy with that, but Jazz's uber-lurking is ridiculous.

##unvote
##Vote:Jazzmyn

[LlamaFluff]

@gamma - Jazz isnt posting anywhere on site. Im much more willing to chalk this one up to irl busyness than tactical lurking. Why Jazz over other lurkers though? Just seeing Jazz-scum lurk once?

@Jack - Your move over QT thing.

Point on fishy isnt bad at all, but there are two other questionable reads to me on that wagon (nico, VPB). I would put a big bet on at least one of the three being anti-town, just not sure enough as to which to start following that path.

[VP Baltar]

Honestly, I'm really disinterested in this game atm. I think tomorrow I am going to try to muster the will to read the last like 5 pages or so since I've only been skimming. If I can't get myself into it, I may replace out because my laziness isn't helping the town and it's better replacement wise if I get out early.

[Gammagooey]

Llama-It's the only game I've played with Jazz so that has a big part of it, I already listed pops and Cobalt, Shotty said he'd post sometime today, and d3x doesn't seem to be lurking anymore, which other lurkers are you referring to exactly?

[Phate]

I figured some would be able to figure out my preference by meta. Since it didn't seem useful for me to WIFOM this (you thought I'd pick scum but I PICKED TOWN so now you are going to lynch me when... oh... crap....) I elected to go for the dice instead.

I used Mafia 89 Revenge. Generated a random number from 1 to 22. 1 to 3 were mafia, 4 was other, all other numbers were town. I got town.

Mafia 89: Revenge had FIVE mafia, one serial killer, and the rest town.

I should know.

I modded it.

[Parama]

this game needs more excitement, I don't even feel like playing anymore.

*whine complain BAAAAW BAAAAW*

[LlamaFluff]

Llama-It's the only game I've played with Jazz so that has a big part of it, I already listed pops and Cobalt, Shotty said he'd post sometime today, and d3x doesn't seem to be lurking anymore, which other lurkers are you referring to exactly?

Trying to see what distinguished jazz from them.

@parama - That actually was a slight town tell from VPB, or at least a non-third party tell.

[Parama]

no I'm actually saying it's not a parody
this game is dull

[DrippingGoofball]

@VP Baltar & Parama

What's the matter, you didn't get the alignment you asked for? Are your buddies flailing?

These are honest questions, I expect truthful and candid answers.

[Parama]

DGB, everybody got the alignment they asked for. It's called "the mods made the setup after everyone sent in alignments".
And the wall of wallposting really killed my interest as well.

[DrippingGoofball]

Honestly, I'm really disinterested in this game atm.

Would you be interested in a mercy lynch of you?

[Phate]

I will not be posting at all tomorrow in this game, and likely not in my other games. I work 9 AM to 8 PM tomorrow.