Lay of Leithian Mafia: Game Over!

[xvart]

I just find the entire transpiring events... intriguing... to say the least. Especially in light of the haphazard (at least to appearances) method of "unbreakable alliance" selection. For example, Sociopath and Budja...

Its a function of the power-votes Jack got when I was arguing with him in rapid succession: Budja, Ice, Sociopath were waay too fast for me to think that the combination of those three + the target (Jack) are all going to be town.

And now two of those people are on your "unbreakable alliance" without hardly a second eye bat. This is at the least mildly disconcerting to me.

Who, in this great tangled mess, is the "scum buddying with town?"

Is it PZ the perpetrator of the initial idea buddying with me?
Is it I who took that first huge step and laid out my feelings?
Is it both of us, scum powers unite, pulling all the stops and working this out together as a method to buddy with that whole group?

This is what I'm still trying to work out. I certainly don't know you and Zito's background of playing together and whether or not this is typical fair, but right now I'm leaning towards you being scum attempting to create a faction loyal followers under the guise of "pro town behavior". What's your best course of action going to be? Kill one of your scum partners to increase the stock in your alliance? Only hunt the other scum faction, if there is one?

Spyrex and Zito - are you certain that there is no scum on your "alliance?" Conversely, does it matter if there are scum on your alliance?

xvart.

Vote Count 3 - 10: Lynch

Steam-Powered Shovel - 3 - Jack, SpyreX, MehPlusRawr,
xvart - 2 - Iecerint, Kmd4390
Iecerint -

4

- SocioPath, Cyberbob, Starbuck, Papa Zito
Jack - 1 - Steam-Powered Shovel
Kmd4390 - 1 - curiouskarmadog
Budja - 1 - xvart
curiousjarmadog - 2 - Budja, farside22,

Not Voting (4): Anon, SensFan, Cobalt, ooba

With 18 players alive it'll take 10 to lynch and 9 to no-Lynch.

[SpyreX]

Except you keep painting it like some huge conspiracy when it isn't in the slightest.

I'm saying one of group X is scum.
I'm also saying I find A within group X to be town.
Zito says he finds B within group X to be town.

Thus, group X is now realistically X - A - B.

IF X - A - B != scum then A and B have to be re-evaluated.

I love "the quotes" a "lot" it "helps me take it seriously"

And if Zito AND I were both scum together AND concocted this plan AND it worked AND we bussed down the line AND somehow were both immune to investigations AND won the game...

Well, go us.

(Hi-C Tip: Even without formalization I wouldn't be voting for anyone I've said in said list tia)

[farside22]

Ice:
Why vote for someone not confirmed and out of the 5 nonconfirmed why vote for FFFF?

Unvote; Vote: Cyberbob. I think Budja's point about the discrepancy between Cyberbob's behavior relative to Els and Kmd was shaky-ish, but CB's failure to address it looks bad. Also, what he DID address looks bad. I can't speak for the aspects of his bulleted list that I can't be bothered to read through right now; correct me if there's isolated brilliance in there somewhere, please.

Why did it look bad. What post is this in reference to.

post 230 okay so now who is scum then? This post says a lot and so little at the same time.

post 233 What do you mean that you think CB vote was timely here? If you thought this why are you still voting him?

post 243 offically puts a big fat ?
I'm looking at 2 other post where you feel good about CB, don't unvote and then have antoher reason to think he's scum that you are just bring up? What?


Did you ever find someone scum hunting that felt scummy. Since it seems like based on the kills 2 scum groups I'm going out on a limb and saying iecerint/ CB not scum together but one or both may be scum.

Unvote; Vote: PapaZito

Nullifying my favorite events in the game so far, and being responsible for the policy lynch on SF that rubbed me the wrong way earlier (never quite noticed that; it'd made me get negative feelings about SPS). Also, 0% impressed with his reported reads. Alsoalso, low activity, and an unusual fixation on MPR.

Will bother CB more later.

Why was PZ responsible for it?

Same deal with MPR/SPS. Namely, I think all (well, several) of the SPS posts MPR listed are scummy, but I don't think I ever agree with the reasons he lists.

Why do you think this. You never said anything earlier in regards to SPS or MPR.

Secret towntell on Jack, unless he wants to correct me.

You asked SB for meta on Jack so what is this about?

My favorite lynches are CB and SPS.

Why SPS?

post 583 jumping on a popular bw at this point without a reason.

I really don't like the support from iecerint on j-scope wagon. Mostly in regards to where he claims that jscops confusion indicating he is probably scum targeting farside.

I liked SPS as scum until yesterday; his response to that situation mirrored mine, at least. It's harder to interpret that well until we know FFFF's alignment, though. I could support an SPS lynch if no one likes xvart.

considering you never once stated a case on him in the first place I just am out of words at this point

How reliable is your secret scumtell on SPS? Do you foresee being able to share it at some point during the course of the game?

Considering your attitude on Jack and your secret towntell I would tell you to go blow it out your butt but your not asking me.

There is some post I didn't have issue with like his Jack is town and later reading what he said about it, but they are few and far between. One he would vote for SPS at one point without a reason stated. I really have no clue what his CB case is. And so far he hasn't really said much else about really anyone in the game.
I feel like he is scum looking for scum. It's more feeling then anything.



Jack:

I like Jack. Oh not for is early play it was just posting crap. But his i hate breadcrumbs comment and what he came up with by doing it made me like him even more after post 323
It's stuff like this that likes my earlier read of CKD. This makes me what to reread SPS and is a very valid point against him.
Awww Jack breaks my heart jumping on a bw post 364 Et too bruta
Awww more crap post 486 I really want to know why you didn't follow thru more with CKD or SPS?
really? post 690 aren't we beyond lurker hunting?
At least day 2 gives me hope. More in regards to that it's information then scum hunting but information non the less.
Any reason your pro Iec?

I'm pretty sure I have a good first impression with Jack as town but damn his play after has gone to shit.

[Iecerint]

I don't understand your first question. I voted for FFFF because I thought he was caughtscum. Do you disagree? If so, why did you vote to destroy him?

IIRC, I'm referencing the exchange between CB and Budja on the same page as the post you're quoting from. Read the post in context if it doesn't make sense to you.

I'm talking about Cobalt's unexplained (by him) vote for CB a few pages prior. Budja pulled an "Oh, it looks like Cobalt voted CB because of XXX" moment, which annoyed me because Cobalt couldn't explain it himself, but Cobalt didn't object to the explanation, and the listed reason for voting was OK IIRC, so that's the point I was alluding to.

Your take on my exchange with CB doesn't make sense to me. Suppose I have 10 reasons that someone is scum. I list them. He explains away 5. That doesn't mean I think whoever is town; it just means I have 5 fewer reasons to think he's scum (if I accept his explanations). Even at a more basic level, your implicit notion that acknowledging explanations is discarding the suspicion does not follow.

PZ was responsible for the RVS policy lynch on SF because he described it that way. Read his very first iso post. This is another question of yours I don't really understand. It's like you're randomly quoting me and blithely adding "why."

I have literally posted and reposted my reasons for voting SPS, most recently on the previous page (page 44). I think I may in fact be the only player (other than MPR) to spell-out why SPS was scummy.

No idea what the "claims that jscops confusion indicating" sentence is supposed to mean.

I'm not discounting SX's secret scumtell. I'm asking him for more information about it. For example, I can't tell you the specifics of the secret towntell on Jack, but I can tell you that I'm reasonably satisfied with it without breaking site rules. If he had claimed like 90% certainly on a secret scumtell, I might have seen that as worth supporting.

What's the difference between "scum looking for scum" and "town looking for scum"? I don't even know much of what to look for. DGB won for town the only two-scumteam game I've played by intense VC analysis, but we don't really have those to play with atm.

[Budja]

@CKD, I'm not spending my posts worrying over suspicions. overly-paranoid => scum. I'd like to think I've made more of an effort scumhunting too.

I'm still getting wanna-be SpyreX from Socio. (Although I do need to reread Iec)

farside is like 99.999999999999999999999999999999% town

^yep.
Surprised you find me town Zito.
I don't hate meta .

Iec grasps Budja-town more strongly than I like.

Its a function of the power-votes Jack got when I was arguing with him in rapid succession: Budja, Ice, Sociopath were waay too fast for me to think that the combination of those three + the target (Jack) are all going to be town.

Could I get a translation?

@xvart, I had expressed suspicion in one form or another on the top wagons (pretty minor in CB's case IIRC)

but

"I would be interested in running up another wagon and see if Budja jumps on it, too" is a misrep. I hadn't been wagon-hopping at all.

Caught up. More later (or tomorrow depending on time (Semi-LA on Mon-Thurs FYI)).

[Anon]

ohhaiguise

Finally I have some stability in my internetzz and yeah I know I owe all of you a fat post with catchup, answers and questions and stuff like that but I decided Id take the more direct way of pure scumhuntng with one of the patented if I were a x-shot vig, Id kill... with x=4.

So yeah
3. Kmd4390
6. Steam-Powered Shovel
7. MehPlusRawr
11. xvart
19. Budja

Now with bonus of people I DONT want in endgame
15. curiouskarmadog
18. SensFan
20. Cobalt

which is at the same time an "start making you noticeable, replace or die" advice.

......

Second, why the hell arent we

destroying elscouta and reviving jscope

?

And finally, Im prob too late for alliance stuff and even more, its a antimeta society, lol, but I approve even if that means Im dead sooner than I wish. Spyrex is obvtown, for meta, and yes I can be the one you trust when its time to read him. I was paranoid about Zito at the beginning but overall tone this day has improved and adding two players out of nowhere to the UA TM as scum is just too bold.

We definitely need more flips. I wanted some wagon analysys shenaningans but this non reveal thing is just too consuming. Id prefer my Elscouta flip first but I have wanted this xvart guy dead since day 1 and he is not improving since then, gogogo xvart wagon.

Vote: xvart.

[curiouskarmadog]

off to bed, will post tomorrow.

Actually

unvote, vote CKD

.
I don't like the weird paranoia, lurky thing you've got going on. (Horrible gut-feeling too, so weak and passive, unassuming feels off? Anyone else get this?)
Better wagon.

interesting....well not really, lurking am I? Budja care to compare our content, post count, or actual protown actions in this game? Or are you just hoping people will join a hypocrite without a case?

first SPS vote.....now mine...throwing shit against a wall until you find something that sticks?

@CKD, I'm not spending my posts worrying over suspicions. overly-paranoid => scum. I'd like to think I've made more of an effort scumhunting too.

this is going to cut it bud...you cant just shove off my questions...where have you scum hunted?


@Far, you are off about me (shrug)...I guess I can see how someone might take my posts that way....but you are just wrong....what really worries me is the vote after my mention of KMD...now, I am not misrepping, your vote could be because of my answers to your questions. You might (as presumed town) deem them scummy. But I dont understand why (as presumed town) you didnt even hiccup at my KMD points.

not deflecting here, keep your vote on me all you want...but would like a stance on my point about KMD.

[Míriel Therindë]

Vote Count 3 - 11: Lynch

Steam-Powered Shovel - 3 - Jack, SpyreX, MehPlusRawr
xvart - 3 - Iecerint, Kmd4390, Anon
Iecerint -

4

- SocioPath, Cyberbob, Starbuck, Papa Zito
Jack - 1 - Steam-Powered Shovel
Kmd4390 - 1 - curiouskarmadog
Budja - 1 - xvart
curiousjarmadog - 2 - Budja, farside22

Not Voting (3): SensFan, Cobalt, ooba

With 18 players alive it'll take 10 to lynch and 9 to no-Lynch.

Prodding

SensFan

.

If you don't remember, the choices to Destroy FeFiFoFum and Revive J-Scope have alredy been locked in and the processes will resolve

with the lynch

.

[Papa Zito]

Wow Plum. You're really bending over backwards to accommodate people here.

are you certain that there is no scum on your "alliance?"

No.

Conversely, does it matter if there are scum on your alliance?

No.

@SpyreX - Shades of Yos in MtG amirite?

Surprised you find me town Zito.
I don't hate meta .

Magic!


@Anon: I need some catchup with those fries.

[SpyreX]

Keep in mind that xvart says I'm the scum for doing this. Specifically, for setting it up for pro-town cred.

That could be important later.

Anon give some more of that good stuff that gives the good feelings please (I like your post will you be my secret valentine <3)

[Kmd4390]

Just popping in to say I won't be responding to CKD. That is all.

[Papa Zito]

Just popping in to say I won't be responding to CKD. That is all.

ORLY

[xvart]

Keep in mind that xvart says I'm the scum for doing this. Specifically, for setting it up for pro-town cred.

That could be important later.

Actually, I said I'm

leaning

scummy at the moment; but perhaps that could simply be because I understand neither the purpose nor the scope of your alliance, especially when you seem not to care if scum has infiltrated your voting block.

xvart.

[SocioPath]

I'm still getting wanna-be SpyreX from Socio.

This offends me.
SpyreX WISHES he could be half the man I am. >:O
Also, I'm not a wizard of any sort.

[SpyreX]

At the moment I don't "care" in the sense I'm not wringing my hands about it and its not a carte blanche excuse to play like scum later because ohh snap alliance.

I've got reads. I'm rollin' with them.

KMD you are being very aggravating but not for dealing with TODAY.

I'd like the game to, ya know, be the active. It helps me.

[farside22]

Ice: Everything I posted was just reading you in iso. I looked at page 40 and saw no post by you. Please quote your case as I never saw it.
Finally I was referring to your very first vote where you pick between I believe 5 people who had not confirmed and from there randomly picked FFF. I was trying to figure out what person votes someone that didn't confirm would accomplish?
Since I know PZ to vote like that in another game that is ongoing I would call that pushing a lynch, more like pushing a players buttons to see how they react.

[farside22]

Far, you are off about me (shrug)...I guess I can see how someone might take my posts that way....but you are just wrong....what really worries me is the vote after my mention of KMD...now, I am not misrepping, your vote could be because of my answers to your questions. You might (as presumed town) deem them scummy. But I dont understand why (as presumed town) you didnt even hiccup at my KMD points.

I'm in read of everyone in iso. Right now my initial gut was kmd. My read not having read kmd in iso is you are on the top of my list.
I so love how you just breeze through what I stated about how you pushed jscope lynch and not thinking about a lack of flip when you made that comment.
I also love that instead of standing on your own two feet your trying the ole bait and switch to someone else. Is there only 1 scum let CKD?
Do I have more then one vote I should be aware of?

[Cyberbob]

Papa Zito's anti-meta society thing is a little obnoxious but I think some people are reading a bit too much into it.

Iece is still posting moderately horribly, though he does get some points for being pretty much literally the only person in the game to have actually acknowledged that my questions re: SPS even exist.

Farside's Post 1102 is p good, though her response to Jack's posting is a little confusing. Almost every specific point about him that she raised was a negative one yet she still "likes" him.

Socio is being kind of useless, Kmd even moreso.

Can't get a read on CKD or Anon, the former just because I can't for some reason and the latter because his activity has been really sketchy all game.

[Starbuck]

Going to be catching up a bit later, too many walls for me to get through while I'm at work.

[curiouskarmadog]

Far, you are off about me (shrug)...I guess I can see how someone might take my posts that way....but you are just wrong....what really worries me is the vote after my mention of KMD...now, I am not misrepping, your vote could be because of my answers to your questions. You might (as presumed town) deem them scummy. But I dont understand why (as presumed town) you didnt even hiccup at my KMD points.

I'm in read of everyone in iso. Right now my initial gut was kmd. My read not having read kmd in iso is you are on the top of my list.
I so love how you just breeze through what I stated about how you pushed jscope lynch and not thinking about a lack of flip when you made that comment.
I also love that instead of standing on your own two feet your trying the ole bait and switch to someone else. Is there only 1 scum let CKD?
Do I have more then one vote I should be aware of?

I didnt breeze over again..I did push the jscope lynch.....and there isnt a "lack of flip"..if anything, it is a delayed flip....so that really isnt an arguement....what is bothering me the most about your current attack dear, is that it is based on absolutely NO ALIGNMENT flips. IF FFFF flips town, how does that change your arguement? FFFF claimed to have info that suggested Jscope was scum...that demands a Jscope lynch and claim, but doesnt demand one from FFFF...if jscope flipped town (even delayed)...FFFF would have to answer for that and would probably be lynched....in this case, there was numerous counter claims...which flips the tables demanding nothing for Jscope, and puts the burden of proof on FFFF....I treated that situation the exact same...what I find funny, is you dont have a problem with that....do you know something we dont far?

you know how the game works farside....this is beginning to increase your scum factor that you seem to be "forgetting" how to play.

about KMD, I dont care about your inital gut read...I want to know your thoughts on my points.....and can I assume you think he is scum too?

@all, I just caught KMD is sheigans...and no one wants to put him to the fire?

Late in the game yesterday he said he had information that suggests we lynch FFFF, but earlier in the day had no problem joining and pushing the Jscope lynch based on FFFF's claim...Now I bring this to the light..he doesnt want to answer ANY QUESTIONS? BULLSHIT....he needs more pressure, why is it good play to let that lie until later???!?!?!

[curiouskarmadog]

MORE PRESSURE ON KMD

[curiouskarmadog]

also, Sensfan...again you have proven me right about your "playstyle"...I have yet been in a game with you where you did anything but lurk or get replaced.

Was hoping your "time away" maybe changed that.

[curiouskarmadog]

thinking about farside in the shower...(not like that)

you know how the game works farside....

this is beginning to

increase your scum factor that you seem to be "forgetting" how to play.

doubting she is mafia (unless there is good scum gambit going on)....so, she is either a misguided townie or a third party....pretty sure she is town. Farside, you really need to reconsider your vote, you are going down the wrong path.

[Iecerint]

SPS case from D1 by way of my repost on the previous page. Context of the D1 post is a comparison between SPS and xofelf:

Here's my D1 summary of the case on SPS. CB asked for elaboration from this from SPSwagoners several times, but no one has given it AFAIK:

Having just reread him in iso: he comes out of RVS by joining the unexplained policy lynch on SF. Then he benchsits through the first part of the game. Joins the wagon on Jack without providing reasoning. Pulls meta defense to address questions related to his behavior. Then he lampshades Jack's fake daykill on you. In short, his behavior has ranged from vacuous to anti-town (at best) all game

Scum confirm later than town on average to extend pre-game talk. FFFF being chosen out of those who hadn't confirmed was just random, though. The important thing was to check back and see whether there was evidence that any of those players were active-lurking past confirmation, but there wasn't evidence of that for anyone except ooba, who said he hadn't known the game had started.

PZ's policy wagon on SFlasted ages, IIRC -- way past "real" RVS. I think I should have an iso post a few posts after the PZ vote that clarifies my reads.

[Kmd4390]

MORE PRESSURE ON KMD

There are clearly better options. Xvart, Iec, Budja, and Zito for example.