Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[Patrick]

Votecount

RichardGHP (1) -- Amished
Faraday (1) -- dybeck
NickF227 (1) -- Seraphim

Not voting: everyone else
15 alive, 8 to lynch.

Deadline: 16th of May

[RichardGHP]

vote faraday

[Faraday]

Going to start the day where I finished the last.

vote: Faraday

.

Ya it was a pretty bad explanation yesterday too, iirc.

[Seraphim]

Someone explain the Faraday wagon because I'm not seeing it.

[dybeck]

Even after Faraday understood that directing Pom would result in giving scum a double kill, he still tried to convince the town to go with this plan.

And deftly avoided the bv wagon Day 1, defending him several times, whilst consistently staying on the wagon most likely to provide a non-bv lynch, without really providing any good reasoning why Richard should be lynched.

I like to have my vote somewhere at all times. Until I see someone do something scummier, that feels good enough for an early vote.

[NickF227]

Vote: ABR

Really, people? I think last day's spectacle is enough reasoning

[Albert B. Rampage]

I never really suspected Porochaz even though he distrusted me a lot.

I'm relatively satisfied with the Pom lynch for two main reasons:

1) you can't claim to not have read the thread and hammer at the same time so far ahead before deadline. You just can't; nobody can.

2) The hider claim was really fishy, and we needed the information of her death for Day 3. We had to know what her alignment was to base future lynches on.

Also, we managed to not out the cop or the doctor which is great. Losing a hider wasn't a great loss, especially considering that Pom quasi-confirmed farside. Now there's always a chance that Pom or farside was JK'd or RB'd and that farside is scum, but 85% farside is town.

I'm glad that Pom and Porochaz are gone in a sense, just because they suspected me and I am town.

Now who do I think is scum.

Of the people who actively tried to derail the Pom bandwagon, I think there was at least one scum. Farside is probably town because of Pom, and Porochaz is dead, so there's Nick and CKD left.

IGMEOY

goes out to both but no FOS.

There's a wealth of information from Day 3 I want to go through but my main suspect is now Sando.

I would have expected scum to move away from the wagon with the claim, possibly coming back when it became clear that the wagon was going ahead.

Ok, nope, having reread, I'm still failing to see a real danger to town from leaving Pom alive. I think ABR's 'scenario' is pretty highly unlikely, and I haven't really seen anyone else pose a downside. Sera's reasoning is equally faulty, in that the danger he proposes (using strong ability hurts town) presumably only happens if Pom is town, therefore using her ability correctly is pro-town, and leaving a scum alive doesn't hurt town in that regards.

I don't think scum would seriously have the balls to push a lynch like this on a claimed role D2 to be honest. I think they're wrong, but I'm starting to think pro-town for the early people pushing for the lynch on the role.

I think it was a slip from Pom, and made me believe the claim even less. I think it's scum-thinking in terms of who they would hide behind.

Unvote, Vote: Pom

The claim seems to be basically utter BS. Nothing about it convinces me, quite the opposite in fact. I don't see the harm in leaving her alive, but no real scum-hunting seems likely while she is alive, so I guess that it's pretty pointless to leave her alive.

These back-to-back posts don't inspire my trust at all. Sando goes from saying "I don't see the harm in leaving Pom alive" to "I don't believe the claim and I'm voting Pom" and tops it off with a "Scum would try to get in on the Pom wagon once it's clear that she's getting lynched" when he places the 8th vote on her. All these things are scummy.

I myself tend to contradict my theory with my play as scum, for example saying that "scum would move away from the wagon" while I'm doing exactly that or "scum would bus" when I'm bussing. So I definitely consider this a big scumtell.

Vote Sando

[Albert B. Rampage]

I must also throw in a mandatory

FOS Richard

[boberz]

I can actually see what ABR was doing yesterday. But after pom was town I think he should buck up today. He is going to have to prove he is town to us today he should no longer be allowed to cruise through.

[dybeck]

I never really suspected Porochaz even though he distrusted me a lot.

I'm relatively satisfied with the Pom lynch for two main reasons:

1) you can't claim to not have read the thread and hammer at the same time so far ahead before deadline. You just can't; nobody can.

2) The hider claim was really fishy, and we needed the information of her death for Day 3. We had to know what her alignment was to base future lynches on.

Also, we managed to not out the cop or the doctor which is great. Losing a hider wasn't a great loss, especially considering that Pom quasi-confirmed farside. Now there's always a chance that Pom or farside was JK'd or RB'd and that farside is scum, but 85% farside is town.

I'm glad that Pom and Porochaz are gone in a sense, just because they suspected me and I am town.

Now who do I think is scum.

Of the people who actively tried to derail the Pom bandwagon, I think there was at least one scum. Farside is probably town because of Pom, and Porochaz is dead, so there's Nick and CKD left.

IGMEOY

goes out to both but no FOS.

There's a wealth of information from Day 3 I want to go through but my main suspect is now Sando.

I would have expected scum to move away from the wagon with the claim, possibly coming back when it became clear that the wagon was going ahead.

Ok, nope, having reread, I'm still failing to see a real danger to town from leaving Pom alive. I think ABR's 'scenario' is pretty highly unlikely, and I haven't really seen anyone else pose a downside. Sera's reasoning is equally faulty, in that the danger he proposes (using strong ability hurts town) presumably only happens if Pom is town, therefore using her ability correctly is pro-town, and leaving a scum alive doesn't hurt town in that regards.

I don't think scum would seriously have the balls to push a lynch like this on a claimed role D2 to be honest. I think they're wrong, but I'm starting to think pro-town for the early people pushing for the lynch on the role.

I think it was a slip from Pom, and made me believe the claim even less. I think it's scum-thinking in terms of who they would hide behind.

Unvote, Vote: Pom

The claim seems to be basically utter BS. Nothing about it convinces me, quite the opposite in fact. I don't see the harm in leaving her alive, but no real scum-hunting seems likely while she is alive, so I guess that it's pretty pointless to leave her alive.

These back-to-back posts don't inspire my trust at all. Sando goes from saying "I don't see the harm in leaving Pom alive" to "I don't believe the claim and I'm voting Pom" and tops it off with a "Scum would try to get in on the Pom wagon once it's clear that she's getting lynched" when he places the 8th vote on her. All these things are scummy.

I myself tend to contradict my theory with my play as scum, for example saying that "scum would move away from the wagon" while I'm doing exactly that or "scum would bus" when I'm bussing. So I definitely consider this a big scumtell.

Vote Sando

Really? You campaigned tirelessly for the death of a power-role "because it would give us information", actively supressing discussion on any other topic, and this is the best you got from it?

[dybeck]

Also, while I'm here, I'm going to hazard a guess at the setup. I wonder whether when town power roles choose to use a night action, scum have the option of using the same night action against town.

We might have a better idea of whether this makes sense as town PRs die and we get more idea of what power roles are in the game - but until we do, I'd advise power roles to consider the repercussions of their night choices.

If this IS true as far as the setup's concerned, I'm not altogether sorry about losing a vig...

Also, now we have an inkling about a couple of the power roles in the game, I think it's worth opening discussion about what we think the setup might be here.

If my suggestion is close to the mark, then scum already know this information, so we're not actually doing any harm to talk about it.

It's "Karma" mafia, after all - the mod's given it that name for a reason, and if scum are getting extra information based upon town's night actions, we should think about a strategy to counter it.

The one thing that is clear is that they're doing a good job of hitting PRs overnight, and we might want to examine whether this is just luck or whether town PRs are inadvertently helping them out.

[Faraday]

I don't mind dybeck's explanation, really. It at least lets me know where he's at,.

It's "Karma" mafia, after all - the mod's given it that name for a reason, and if scum are getting extra information based upon town's night actions, we should think about a strategy to counter it.

The one thing that is clear is that they're doing a good job of hitting PRs overnight, and we might want to examine whether this is just luck or whether town PRs are inadvertently helping them out.

I think it's obvious that since PR's have a weak strong mode obviously there's some negative effect. Since town doesn't know what it is, it seems obvious it's doing something to either 1) help scum and 2) hinder town.
The thing is, while trying to work it out is good I don't know where to start.

It was you that suggested scum get powers if town use them? I think it's possible, but the hider being in the set-up makes me feel that's less likely.

[dybeck]

I don't mind dybeck's explanation, really. It at least lets me know where he's at,.

It's "Karma" mafia, after all - the mod's given it that name for a reason, and if scum are getting extra information based upon town's night actions, we should think about a strategy to counter it.

The one thing that is clear is that they're doing a good job of hitting PRs overnight, and we might want to examine whether this is just luck or whether town PRs are inadvertently helping them out.

I think it's obvious that since PR's have a weak strong mode obviously there's some negative effect. Since town doesn't know what it is, it seems obvious it's doing something to either 1) help scum and 2) hinder town.
The thing is, while trying to work it out is good I don't know where to start.

It was you that suggested scum get powers if town use them? I think it's possible, but the hider being in the set-up makes me feel that's less likely.

We know we had a vig... It's conceivable that scum would have had the ability to get some protection from nightkills as a 'karma' effect of the hider using her night action.

[Amished]

... This is why I hate large games, I forget about all the scummy people that I want to dayvig from the day(s) before.

Unvote
Vote: Sando

I want dybeck to still eat a curb for his discussion that will probably help to out current power roles. Seriously, STFU.

Sando is for the reason ABR brought up (the "theory" and going against it), since that really rings true for my scum game as well.

[dybeck]

[quote="Amished]I want dybeck to still eat a curb for his discussion that will probably help to out current power roles. Seriously, STFU.[/quote]

You're basing this upon what, exactly?

If mafia are getting night results from our investigators, etc, as I suspect, then some caution in the way they're used will conceal power roles, not out them.

Scum have a lot more info than we do. They don't seem to be doing a bad job of lynching/NKing our power roles so far - let's try and stem that tide.

PRs are responsible for not outing themselves - everyone just needs to be a bit sensible in what they say.

[curiouskarmadog]

Sando, ABR, and to some extent I think Sera are scum

but

vote ABR

(because now he is starting a Sando wagon?)

He jumped off of scum's wagon Day 1 swinging to votes around to Richard, luckily we were still able to lynch scum, against his distractions.

Yesterday he pushed from a FUCKING HIDER lynch after it was obvious that the hider should be around at least to confirm some people...He is not helpful and he has not done ONE FUCKING PROTOWN THING...

---
Sando is also scum, he said he agreed with my reasoning for wanting to keep the hider around, but still lynched him anyway.

Sera....Sera is a smart player so I dont believe for a fucking second you didnt see ANY benefit of keeping Pom around.

out of those 3 ABR needs to go. I dont believe for a second his fluff at the end of yesterday...he is so obviously scum it hurts..

DIE SCUM...

[farside22]

Of the people who actively tried to derail the Pom bandwagon, I think there was at least one scum. Farside is probably town because of Pom, and Porochaz is dead, so there's Nick and CKD left. IGMEOY goes out to both but no FOS.

This is bullshit. Scum would rather blend in then make waves. Or they lurk their ass off.

vote: OJ

Case still stands from yesterday

[dybeck]

Of the people who actively tried to derail the Pom bandwagon, I think there was at least one scum. Farside is probably town because of Pom, and Porochaz is dead, so there's Nick and CKD left. IGMEOY goes out to both but no FOS.

This is bullshit. Scum would rather blend in then make waves. Or they lurk their ass off.

You have to admit, though, that if it

was

a scum strategy to create a mislynch, to distract everyone from scumhunting, and to end the day without any decent amount of information, then it worked pretty well.

[farside22]

Of the people who actively tried to derail the Pom bandwagon, I think there was at least one scum. Farside is probably town because of Pom, and Porochaz is dead, so there's Nick and CKD left. IGMEOY goes out to both but no FOS.

This is bullshit. Scum would rather blend in then make waves. Or they lurk their ass off.

You have to admit, though, that if it

was

a scum strategy to create a mislynch, to distract everyone from scumhunting, and to end the day without any decent amount of information, then it worked pretty well.

Point?

[Amished]

I want dybeck to still eat a curb for his discussion that will probably help to out current power roles. Seriously, STFU.

You're basing this upon what, exactly?

If mafia are getting night results from our investigators, etc, as I suspect, then some caution in the way they're used will conceal power roles, not out them.

Scum have a lot more info than we do. They don't seem to be doing a bad job of lynching/NKing our power roles so far - let's try and stem that tide.

PRs are responsible for not outing themselves - everyone just needs to be a bit sensible in what they say.

You think scum don't know who the town is? Really? Are you that blind?

[Faraday]

Of the people who actively tried to derail the Pom bandwagon, I think there was at least one scum. Farside is probably town because of Pom, and Porochaz is dead, so there's Nick and CKD left. IGMEOY goes out to both but no FOS.

This is bullshit. Scum would rather blend in then make waves. Or they lurk their ass off.

I think it depends on the game. You'll usually see at least one scum trying to 'make waves' in most games IME.

I'm not sure how Dybeck's discussion will out PR's I guess it's possible in the way people react, but it seems so far that they've more idea how karma works than anyone else. Pom certainly didn't seem to or she's surely have mentioned it.

[Jahudo]

ABR was a distraction yesterday, I don't think people trying to keep Pom alive had a scum motivation to do so. That said, I think he's right about Sando.

SANDO CASE:

1) Sando's original reason for suspecting BV is full of holes.

I think scum are often the first to accuse of role-fishing, because it's such an easy accusation to make and town are so firmly against it that the mud invariably sticks.

That doesn't explain how town wouldn't point out a good tell if they were there first to notice it. Sando also doesn't suspect Espy for being the rolefisher, so Sando must not believe his own tell.


2) Sando suspects dybeck in a way that makes sense if BV is scum, yet Sando doesn't apply more pressure to BV.

Dybecks claim that the BV case is wishy-washy etc is classic attempt at derailing.

By the time he votes for dybeck, he still hasn't pressured BV with any questioning or votes. It looks like he's more sure of dybeck, which doesn't make much sense if BV is town. So I think this was an attempt at safe distancing from BV while re-directing focus somewhere else.


3) Sand goes from Richard and BV being equal suspicions, to Richard being his top suspicion. There's no specific reasoning of why BV went down or Richard went up.

Would lynch: Richard/BV/Sera/Anon/Dybeck, no particular order.

Richard - Probably top of the list, he's not only by far the scummiest person around, he's totally anti-town seperate to that, and lynching him will give us huge amounts of information.
BV/Sera - Pretty similar level, but for different reasons. I've stated previously why I'd lynch these guys.

His BV vote near deadline could have been bussing, since its hard to see how he suspected BV on the level that he claims

I've consistently rated BV as my 2nd or 3rd suspect that I'd be willing to lynch.

I could see him finding BV 5th most suspicious based on his day 1 posts, but not any higher.

Vote: Sando

[Albert B. Rampage]

My Day 1 is impeccable don't try to get it twisted CKD.

[dybeck]

Come on, let's just lynch whoever the fuck ever, I don't care about Day 1.

I'll vote whoever as long as it's not me.

Right now I don't care who gets lynched as long as it's not me. Some are lurking, some are posting a lot, but in the end it doesn't make a difference because scum can do either. So I'll just vote for whoever for now.

I don't have any strong reads on anybody yet.

Unvote, vote POMEGRANATE

Pomegranate is scum guys.

My Day 1 is impeccable don't try to get it twisted CKD.

Yep. Your Day 1 was a real masterclass. Surpassed only by your spectacular Day 2.

[Albert B. Rampage]

Referencing how I handled bv.