Riddle Me This! NY111 - mafia dead - Town wins!

[RichardGHP]

oh, well, I just Iso'd FFFF, and it appears that he was both inactive and not helpful to the town. I can assure you this is not a result of scumminess, and I will try to rectify this situation through actively scumhunting and being overall helpful to the town.

Using "town" and "mafia" instead of "green" and "red" would be a good start to improving your slot and your play in general.

Can you refrain from referencing an ongoing game?
Especially one we're both alive in. I think that's against the rules...

I didn't reference any specific game.

1)He is letting meta ruin his opinion of me in his reference of another game we're in together.

I hardly call that meta. Provided you quit with the colours I'm willing to give you another shot to prove that you can play the game without newbcarding.

I feel like ksun482 would have voted for Richard if Richard wasn't his mafia buddy.

WIFOM invalidates this argument.

3) I don't really like him

So this is a policy thing? It's a bit late for that. Oh, and you were the one who just brought up the ongoing game thing too (which is an inherently stupid rule but whatever).

4) I feel like he is a relatively weak player

Does that mean I am scum? No. If you really feel that I'm weak enough to significantly hurt the town's play, leave me to the vig. I'd rather you lynched actual scum instead of a bad townie. Also, your Point 4 is borderline hypocritical, but whatever. I'm willing to give you a clean slate from that other game; I hope you can at least consider doing the same. Your only semi-decent point is 2, but even it is completely WIFOM. You really don't have a case at all.

Mod: Votecount please; and how specific are you on discussing ongoing games? Does anything so far warrant a warning or modkill? I don't want to find out the hard way.

[Yosarian2]

Hey look, Yosarian went two whole posts without mentioning me. Maybe there's a dayguiser...

Hey, if you want me to attack you less, then be less scummy. It's simple.

[RichardGHP]

Hey look, Yosarian went two whole posts without mentioning me. Maybe there's a dayguiser...

Hey, if you want me to attack you less, then be less scummy. It's simple.

Hahaha. Funny. What strikes me as odd is that there are players twice as scum-like as me out there, yet you've only been focussing on me. I love how you're so sure of yourself.

[Yosarian2]

Hey look, Yosarian went two whole posts without mentioning me. Maybe there's a dayguiser...

Hey, if you want me to attack you less, then be less scummy. It's simple.

Hahaha. Funny. What strikes me as odd is that there are players twice as scum-like as me out there, yet you've only been focussing on me.

There's one player who's more scummy then you are right now, in my eyes. That's why I'm voting for him.

Anyway, you completly refused to respond to any of my arguments yesterday, and still haven't. I don't know why you'd expect pressure on you to go away when you never responded to it in any useful way.

I love how you're so sure of yourself.

Hmm? No, I'm not especially sure of myself; hell, I know how often everyone is wrong in this game, including me. Give me a logical reason to think that my attack on PaltryExcuse is wrong, or that my earlier suspicions on you are wrong, or that I'm wrong in thinking that mipe is most likely town, and I'll be glad to reconsider any or all of those things.

[DeathNote]

Vote Count

PaltryExcuse- Anon, Yosarian2, TheFonz (L-6)
Furcolow- dahill1 (L-8)
Yosarian2- Quagmire, Shanba (L-7)
Quagmire- inHimshallibe (L-8)
Anon- iamausername (L-8)
VasudeVa- PaltryExcuse, mipe (L-7)
RichardGHP- Furcolow (L-8)
mipe- RichardGHP (L-8)

Not Voting:

Thestatusquo, DizzyIzzyB13, Scotmany12, zoraster

With 17 alive, its 9 to lynch.

I see no issue Richard's comment. If someone feels there is an issue with talking about an on going game, please PM me with the post and I will decide from there.

~A Ton.~

[Furcolow]

oh, well, I just Iso'd FFFF, and it appears that he was both inactive and not helpful to the town. I can assure you this is not a result of scumminess, and I will try to rectify this situation through actively scumhunting and being overall helpful to the town.

Using "town" and "mafia" instead of "green" and "red" would be a good start to improving your slot and your play in general.

Can you refrain from referencing an ongoing game?
Especially one we're both alive in. I think that's against the rules...

I didn't reference any specific game.

Yes, you did Richard. Want me to link it?

[Furcolow]

Also, according to the vote counts, you are 100% scum in my eyes.

[Anon]

Being insanely busy and my internetzz working when it wants, makes me post this antiprod post with sadness.

Ill be back online tomorrow.

[RichardGHP]

oh, well, I just Iso'd FFFF, and it appears that he was both inactive and not helpful to the town. I can assure you this is not a result of scumminess, and I will try to rectify this situation through actively scumhunting and being overall helpful to the town.

Using "town" and "mafia" instead of "green" and "red" would be a good start to improving your slot and your play in general.

Can you refrain from referencing an ongoing game?
Especially one we're both alive in. I think that's against the rules...

I didn't reference any specific game.

Yes, you did Richard. Want me to link it?

No, I didn't. I referenced an action that

you do in all your games, not just the ones with me in them. Metagaming is not the same as referencing an ongoing game. The game in question is ongoing, yes, but I'm not referencing it specifically by name. If I started going into actual POSTS from that game, common users between this game and that one etc, THAT would be what I call referencing an ongoing game.

Also, according to the vote counts, you are 100% scum in my eyes.

Cool story bro. Mind explaining why? The fact that ksun wasn't voting me doesn't cut it. If you want to think that I am scum based ENTIRELY on votecounts, you had better have damn good reasoning.

[scotmany12]

Hey look, Yosarian went two whole posts without mentioning me. Maybe there's a dayguiser...

Hey, if you want me to attack you less, then be less scummy. It's simple.

Hahaha. Funny. What strikes me as odd is that there are players twice as scum-like as me out there, yet you've only been focussing on me.

There's one player who's more scummy then you are right now, in my eyes. That's why I'm voting for him.

Anyway, you completly refused to respond to any of my arguments yesterday, and still haven't. I don't know why you'd expect pressure on you to go away when you never responded to it in any useful way.

He never responded to my arguments either.

Anways, I'm drunk. Obviously not in the right mind to comment right now. I apologize. Three top suspects currently are Richard, inHim, and paltry.

[Furcolow]

PaltryExcuse- Anon, Yosarian2, TheFonz (L-6)
??FeFiFoFum- dahill1??? (L-8)
Yosarian2- Quagmire, Shanba (L-7)
Quagmire- inHimshallibe (L-8)
Anon- iamausername (L-8)
VasudeVa- PaltryExcuse, mipe (L-7)
RichardGHP-->Furcolow<--- (L-8)
mipe- RichardGHP (L-8)

Not Voting:

Thestatusquo, DizzyIzzyB13, Scotmany12, ????FeFiFoFum???, zoraster

Mod

^

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Congratulations, Furcolow, you've done more to further the scum cause in your brief period than FeFiFoFum did during his entire miserable existence. Bravo.

[The Fonz]

Right, why Paltry's argument is bad:

Essentially, you're arguing change of behaviour when under attack. That's not necessarily scummy. Nearly everyone becomes more defensive/less effective at scumhunting when attacked. Furthermore, players tend to spend more time on games they're actually enjoying. I know I can become less active in games if I'm being attacked with craplogic, or things become personal. mipe's behaviour took a noticeable turn for the better from the post when he claimed his other game had ended onwards: it may well be the case that he had overcommitted himself, and chose to prioritise the game reaching its conclusion over the one that was just starting.

Furthermore, that argument can be applied to so many people in this game. Yos used it against Richard: Y2 claimed that GHP was sitting back, and hoping mipe or ksun got lynched out of inertia. It can be applied to the players on the mipe wagon: when that wagon was contested, they didn't fight for it, they sat there lurking on the wagon, possibly hoping it would carry through without any effort on their part. It's also true of ksun, who sat back and let himself get lynched even when he had a roleclaim he must have known could have saved him. (I don't buy the Richard-buddy hypothesis: I think if we hadn't lynched ksun, he'd have had to be replaced).

Secondly: The mipe wagon absolutely stank of scum, and we said this at the time. It was bad enough we can pretty much know there was at least one more scum on it, besides ksun: we don't need to lynch mipe to find that out.

[mipe]

Yes, you did Richard. Want me to link it?

Please, as I can't find it. Could you give me a quote from Richard where he says the game name? BTW, I think this whole conversation is scummy.

Unvote, Vote: Furcolow

[Furcolow]

i'm furthering the scum cause by showing the mod something which helps town...

you make no sense

[Furcolow]

Yos is worrying me. It feels like he's playing as if he were Sherlock Holmes or something. He has his pet theory (that richard is scum) and he's basing his interpretation of the facts around that rather than around the circumstances of the ksun wagon.

What do I mean? Well, look at the way he dismisses me as a possible scum because he thinks Richard is scum. I would expect a player looking for associative tells to go something like "here paltry excuse does an action that makes him look like ksun's partner, and here Shanba does an action that make him look like ksun's partner etc." But for Yos right now he is staring through the lens of Richardscum so that even though he thinks my actions look scummy, he doesn't think I'm scum.

Sure, he could say "well I think Richard is still scummy despite being the leading counterwagon and thus I don't think Shanba's actions are that scummy" but that's not what he's doing.

Also I don't really get the fact that he's voting Paltry over Richard (here's his stated reasons for that; his paltryexcuse case is further back in his iso).

Again, I have to say that you're just wrong here; the reasons I gave on day 1 for suspecting RichardG were and are 100% valid. Only reason I'm not voting him now is because I think the connection between PaltryExcuse and the dead scum are a stronger tell, but Richard is my #2 suspect, and if I had to guess I'd say they're probably both scum together.

I dunno. Everything he's saying is coherent, it just feels like the picture he is drawing up is stretched, dependent on too many things being just so.

There's something else that bugs me, too. He brings up a single example to show why we shouldn't assume that Ricky is town just because he was the counterwagon to scum. Okey doke, that's all fine and dandy, but a single counterexample doesn't stop something being a useful tell. And what's more, given Yos' playstyle, this should be doubly obvious/important to him. He's basically dismissing the tell on the basis of one piece of anecdotal evidence.

I see Fonz' WIFOM but in my experience with trying to read Yos, a Yos I find it hard to agree with is often a scumYos.

When I'm looking at the players, the vote counts and etc, I think FFFF is a good fallback wagon who is slightly more likely than average to be scum, but I think we have enough info from day 1 that we ought to be able to do better. Paltryexcuse is scummy, but I think Yos' case on him is somewhat overblown.

Basically, the way PaltryExcuse attacks me over swapping wagons feels town. It's like, I jump off mipe and onto ksun and he thinks "hrm, from one lurker to another? That's odd. I wonder what his reasons are," then asks me for my reasons, finds them insufficient and says it makes me likely scum. I mean, he does the same thing to Korts earlier on, so it's clearly something that he's looking for.

If he's scum trying to derail the ksun wagon, surely he would not be giving an explanation for attacking me where his possibility of attacking me is dependent on giving him a particular answer? The anatomy of the attack, the way he gives me an opportunity to defend myself, just seems town.

I think Yos is likely to be scum.

Vote: Yosarian2

Anon and Vas were two of the players I fingered yesterday in my wagon analysis. Given how that turned out, I'm a wee bit leery of assuming they're bussing scum. (A side note - all the players who jumped on every wagon that day also jumped on the ksun wagon rather than the Ricky wagon. One scenario in which the scum would rush to bus one of their members that would make sense is if they thought Ricky was a more valuable member of their scumteam than ksun, which is entirely possible given ksun's play yesterday. But ksun was a mafia power role, so yeah.)

This post feels very much like mafia trying to spam The Fonz's good post off the page. He also disagree with him within this post, and I feel that his goal here is to take away from The Fonz and Yosarian developing a sort of "town circle". He is also, through doing this, sort of saving Richard. I am apt to believe that Richard, inhimshallibe and shanba are mafia.

[inHimshallibe]

I will reply after work, I swearz it.

[iamausername]

Really need to get in this game more.

Anon was bussing.

Allow me to elaborate:

His request for ksun to be force replaced in Post #118 stuck out as a little strange to me at the time, but I didn't think that much of it without the knowledge of ksun's alignment. But with that knowledge I think it becomes fairly damning, especially when you compare it to Post #398. ksun is obviously screwing around instead of taking the game seriously, and Anon requests a forced replacement, and when that doesn't happen, he just lets the issue drop. mipe is obviously screwing around instead of taking the game seriously and Anon says he needs to die because

Mipe is one of these players that will never replace out and has a stupid playstyle that requieres extreme decisions.

So why does ksun not get the same treatment?

Then there's this exchange:

Eh I think it's a reasonable lynch. Even if he is a raw newbie as it seems, his behavior isn't what I'd expect out of a newbtown.

how does a newbtown act, dahill?

Like Vas. His recent behavior has totally made me change my mind on him.

Maybe I worded my question poorly.

What exact behavior in ksun do you see as indicative of alignment?

which comes immediately after Anon decides to hop onto the ksun wagon. Like, within the hour. If he wants ksun lynched, why is he grilling dahill about his vote?

Also, the combination of these two absolutely stinks:

mipe - PaltryExcuse, VasudeVad, ksun482, sorasagoof, RichardGHP, FeFiFoFum (L-5)
RichardGHP- scotmany12, Mipe, Yosarian2, Quagmire, korts (L-6)
ksun482- Shanba, dahill1, The Fonz, inHimshallibe, iamausername (L-6)

Mipe has not done anything remarkable protown, yet his wagon is full of suspicious/neutral reads from my pov. Mipe can be town after all.

Richard has some interesting votes there. More importantly, Quagmire and korts voting together.

Its interesting to notice that despite ksun being pretty much a "die useless player die" lynch, there are a lot of decent reasoners on it. I think this talks a lot of the lack of decent scumhunting this game has had. Me included.

Vote: ksun.

- Im pretty sure there one busser in the ksun482 wagon, which is bad news because that means we prob have one comptetent scumbag to hunt in the mix. (Shanba, dahill1, The Fonz, inHimshallibe, iamausername).

So, his reason for voting ksun is that everyone voting mipe is suspect, wheras everyone voting ksun is good, but then after ksun flips scum, he turns around and says "definitely some bussing going on there". I really have trouble seeing that as a product of good intentions.

---

I'm gonna take a look at some other players next, especially Yos, because my gut says he's scum, and it's never steered me wrong on Yos before. But I probably won't have time to get that out today.

[The Fonz]

The above is a good case. I look forward with interest to the response. Meanwhile, an ISO of Paltry now makes me think, of all those on the mipewagon, he might be the most likely to actually have thought mipe scum. Need a rethink, but vote stays until i come up with a better candidate.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Mmmm... I quite like that Anon case. But then, I'm starting to like a Furcolow lynch, too. Decisions, decision...

[Furcolow]

why is it that I always manage to turn a stupid townie against me?

[Furcolow]

Town: iamausername - very protown case, low post user with lots of content to them. Votes to lynch ksun, puts FoS on richard, both of which i REALLY like considering the way this game has gone. No way would a scum put a vote and fos on their buddies like that, and I know ksun was and RichardGHP probably is scum.

So I think I'm going to endorse the only remotely viable counterwagon

Pretty sure RichardGHP was and still is an equally viable counterwagon. I don't think it's a good wagon, but it does exist. You should probably acknowledge that.

Unvote, Vote: ksun

Best of some mediocre choices, I guess.

Dizzyizzy - This vote count:

DizzyIzzyB13- town:Korts, mafia:ksun482, likely mafia: Shanba,
likely mafia:inHimshallibe, dahill1, I can tell you town: FeFiFoFum (L-5)

Plus I get the feel of a stupid vanilla townie as my read. Definitely someone to consider lynching if we're going into a late game scenario, but lets try not to let that happen as a town when we have to kill the "bad" town players such as DI and myself.

leaning town:
dahill1 - short posts, but i have a town read on him as seen here:

argghgh so many people i want to lynch

ksun how about you make a case for once and list your suspects instead of just going with the flow? you seem like you're just playing off of others' comments/arguments and not doing anything original.

help me lynch him?

ok

unvote vote ksun

mipe for the love of god help the town

leaning scum:

inhimshallibe - distracts the town, puts FoS on obvtown players, doesnt build cases

Never mind, Yos. You're probably town now that Quagmire has started to attack you.

Quagmire, what is easier about lynching ksun than RGHP? Give one reason that separates the two, so those on ksun might vote the other way.

Anon - see above from iamausername. I also read scum when i iso'd yesterday

We have a better candidate than anon, though, because of this post:

Back from losing my internets, seems I didnt miss much. Still need a deep reread trying to understand why korts and soras were killed but...

This.

Interesting facts

mipe - PaltryExcuse, VasudeVad, ksun482, sorasagoof, RichardGHP, FeFiFoFum (L-5)
RichardGHP- scotmany12, Mipe, Yosarian2, Quagmire, korts (L-6)
ksun482- Shanba, dahill1, The Fonz, inHimshallibe, iamausername (L-6)

...I think this is an extremely important votecount, before I voted ksun and the wagon that lynched him grew inmediately.

shanba - I don't know why I thought he was mafia last night, probably due to a vote i missed in his iso today, but i'm still going to keep my eye on him.

Eh, TSQ's logic is not why i think dahill's action was scummy. For me, it's more like this:

dahill's explanation:

Who said I thought GHP was scummy for it? I'm asking him why he thinks that because it's anti-town.

For a start, he wasn't addressing GHP. He addressed the town.

Likely Scum List:
RichardGHP - FIRST OFF, RichardGHP and Anon have a funny "inside joke" voting on each other during the random vote stage of day 1. I wouldn't normally read a lot into a day 1 vote, but just the FEEL of this is as if they know something we don't. It just feels like a

"hai u guyz we voted for each other we aren't scumbuddies"

Vote: Richard.

Vote Anon

.

Oh My God, You Suck.

It's also interesting to note that Anon is in Richard's "people I think are town" in his Iso'd post 31.

We really need to get people who were on the Mipe-wagon. That wagon was the scummiest I've seen in awhile.

You ask, how was ksun lynched then? Simple. Mafia gave up on him.

I'll show you.

Mod: Please prod or replace the following players:

ksun482

.

mipe needs to die ASAP.

Request ksun to be force replaced.

OH LOOK ANOTHER TIE BETWEEN ANON AND RICHARD WHAT EVER SHALL WE DO

[Furcolow]

FoS: inHimshallibe

His play reminds me of the play that he had in the Space Monkey Mafia, in which he flipped mafia.

he was wanting a quick wagon in that game to continue. He also plays anti-discussion, and chastises people from pro-town sentiment. He will be the first person to throw a mafia member under the bus, too, as he votes for mafia members AT LEAST TWICE in that game.

scotmany12- springlullaby (L-10)
Springlullaby- DizzyIzzyB13 (L-10)
dahill1- Thestatusquo (L-10)
Richard Massive- theopor_COD (L-10)
Korts - Quagmire (L-10)
RichardGHP- scotmany12, Mipe (L-9)
ksun482- Shanba, dahill1 (L-9)
sorasagoof- iamausername (L-10)
Paltry Excuse- Anon (L-10)

mipe - PaltryExcuse, VasudeVad, Korts, ksun482, sorasagoof, RichardGHP, inHimshallibe, FeFiFoFum (L-3)

Those are good snapshots. I wonder what our numbers are.

unvote
vote: RichardGHP

You like ksun better than GHP?

Ok.

unvote
vote: ksun

HE ALSO BEHAVES EXACTLY LIKE THAT IN THIS GAME.

FOS: inHimShallibe, Anon

MAJOR FOS: RichardGHP

[PaltryExcuse]

Well, the reason I said "pretty much regardless of context" is this; no matter what reason given for it, trying to discourage the wagon on ksun is just something a scumbuddy is more likely to do then a town. Even if I agreed with you, it would STILL be a scum tell for you.

Beyond that, though, I find it kind of odd you were opposed to a "policy lynch" (I assume you mean lurker lynch?) ksun wagon when you were voting mipe all day for largely policy reasons. I mean, I know some people don't like the idea of policy lynches and oppose them consistantly (I don't really agree, especally for lurkers, but I don't want to get sidetracked into a theory argument here), but you didn't oppose "policy lynches" consistnatly; you only did so when it was a scum who was getting wagoned.

So I'm being accused of a chainsaw defense or something? My opinion on ksun was that before pressure was even on him in my first analysis post of the game. Is it a bonus ksun was scum? Yes. However I wasn't going to jump on what I perceive to be a policy lynch when I see scum elsewhere.

In theory, I don`t know if I have enough experience / know how to determine if I like policy lynches or not. I played a mini recently as scum and town was preeetty much going to lose due to a few bad bad players and us lynching someone who potentially could have helped more than the others. However, in a game like that, lynching half the town results in death. I can see both sides but still I'd prefer to lynch someone I think is scum over a policy lynch. I think that is a universal opinion.

Eh. If you thought the ksun and mipe wagon were similarly justified, then why were you so opposed to the ksun wagon while supporting the mipe wagon?

Beyond that, Shanba was starting to talk about being uncomfortable with the mipe wagon a while before he changed votes; you even asked him about that earlier.

I thought the ksun and mipe wagons were similarily justified by others, not by me. Initially the pressure was on mipe because he seemed to be trying to play the game and wasn't getting much attention (despite an attempt to put some on him). He then edited his behaviour upon pressure to look more VI-ish. It looks fatalistic newb-scum to me.

Wasn't that why you attacked Shanba, was because he left the wagon?

In a way. Shanba's REASONS for leaving the wagon were similar to his for joining mipe's in my eyes. Not just because he left the wagon.

Anyway, I'd like to hear this. Why do you think mipe is scum? I find your inital vote for him pretty weak, considering you then kept your vote on him all day:

mipe:

He just seems to like voting... and now has jumped off of dahill1 for a rather odd reason. If town comes to a decision (after hearing their defense), they should lynch the person.

unvote

Unvote for now. I don't want a potential lynch when there still is 2 and half weeks to the day deadline.

This just seems like you're trying to win free town points.
Any information from mipe has to be gotten by asking him directly, and his finding Anon suspicious because he didn't give a reason for his initial vote seems ridiculous.

...

Vote: mipe

ANd then, later, you said this:

mipe

- Played bandwagon-y and scummy, and participated more before he was targetted and then lost all interest in playing afterwards. His attempt to scumhunt against Richard seems foolhardy, and a bit town. However, his early play still convinces me to keep my vote where it is.

So, to get this straight; it sounds like you voted mipe because "he seemed to like voting" and was"bandwagon-y" (I don't think that's any kind of scumtell), because you don't like his unvote for dahill (which I find kind of an odd, since you never really showed any signs of wanting dahill lynched yourself), because he wasn't answering question, and because he looked like he lost interest in the game. The second two points are the only ones that sound reasonable to me, and they sound like a policy lynch; you wanted to lynch mipe because he didn't seem to care much much the game anymore. That's why I thought your mipe vote was an attempt to policy lynch him, because policy-lynch type reasons are really the only reasons you gave that make sense to me.

So, did you have some other reasons for suspecting mipe, and for pushing his wagon all day over both the ksun wagon and the richard wagon? If so, what were they?

I have repeatedly said the reasons for pushing onto mipe. He seemed to be trying to contribute, but basically just bandwagoned and provided no analysis. I've caught newbscum on that before. He then changed his tune to self-destructive upon suspicion. The unvote post was just the one that caught my eye. For the umpteenth time, ksun still reads like a policy lynch. RichardGHP acted scummy, I'll admit, but I still find and found mipe more suspicious than Richard.

So my basic reason for pushing the mipe wagon is: I THINK HE'S SCUM. I've made my reasons as to why perfectly clear. I will admit that mipe joining me on the Vas vote has me doubting my reads a bit.

[inHimshallibe]

His play reminds me of the play that he had in the Space Monkey Mafia, in which he flipped mafia.

I'm... I'm not sure this is your best case.