Open 201 v2.0 ~ F&I Mafia ~ Game Over

[Chronopie]

Also: I'd like to hear about this hypothetical link between me and max.

[Gheb]

It could still very well be that Start is scum and that the Doc is just playing it safe and not counter claiming this early, but I for one am not willing to take the risk of lynching our only protection from nightkills.

Doubt it. Both mafia fractions still have both their members alive, whereas town has already lost 3 vanillas. That's not the kind of situation I'd expect scum to make such a gambit. They probably wouldn't gain much from that pursuit when they still have to play it safe - keep in mind that they also have to get rid of the opposing mafia fraction. Potentially sacrificing a member at this point of the game just to get rid of the doc when there's still another scum team? That would be the dumbest think you can do in that situation imo. I think he's telling the truth.

[Max]

I just closed my tab with all my response on.

Long story short:
@ Tar
- I suppose I've tunneled somewhat.
@ Farside22
- Start would have been an easier bandwagon. I had to create the jacob bandwagon.
- My case may not have been strongest, but it certainly wasn't the weakest.

@ TQO
- Yes, correct. I haven't really developed my case... but nor have you, I will do soon but seriously, pot kettle black...
- Still wish to follow gut?

[farside22]

Nope, still not liking Farside.

I don't like the avoidance of NK speculation
I don't like what was, i felt, a slip in only going after 1 scum pairing
I don't like the belief of the claim without looking at the motivation behind the wagon.

Unvote, Vote: Farside

I explain why. Unless you chose to ignore my point then please explain why you disagree.
Not a slip I am looking for scums and seeing what fits. I had yb with start first but start has claimed so that scum team makes no sense.
So your point is what now?
So I should keep my vote on a claimed doctor who is at L-1 for the scum to hammer? That makes sense how?

I've explained why this game is different from normal games and NK speculation is more useful than usual. I'd let our disagreement about NK speculation go in a normal (1 scum group, or scumgroups that can NK each other) game, but your stubborn refusal to even acknowledge the difference and explanation that I've given, and now accusing me of ignoring your points, when I'm pretty sure I specifically quoted you, merely confirms my opinion.

Where did I ever say you should keep a vote on him? I said that you appeared to believe the claim (removing your vote) yet ignore the possibility that a wagon on a doctor could be scum motivated and immediately move onto others. Nice attempt at twisting though.

First of all if you read the other game. The mafia N1 killed me in an attempt to frame Gayle (town) They even made sly statements trying to allude to it but they failed. So NK speculation isn't always accurate and saying it is, is delusional. The scum will frame whoever they think town/scum to make themselves look better.
Second you are not clear on your reason's for not liking my Max vote. You seemed to imply in my view that I should have kept my vote on a claimed doctor who was at L-1.
Is there a reason I should ignore my number 1 suspect? Do you believe someone on the start wagon is scum that voted and which one did you find the most unbelievable?
I will tell you if you missed it, my vote was mainly who was on the start wagon and who wasn't and thinking start was scum based on the wagon's.
So yes Yellow is on my scum list and I would vote for him just as fast as Max.
Finally as for the pairs I have been listing them since day 1.
Today I had start/yb or start with Chrono. Now I'm saying Max/chrono
Yb/? Means I don't know. So which pair did you disagree with?
Now that Start has claimed (which I don't see a counter claim and seriously I dont' mind if there was one since the mafia can WIFOM if they should kill Start or hope the other team does it. If were lucky both scum groups will target the claimed doc so no one dies.

@Chrono: I see you and Max scum for saying you don't see anything scummy in his post after I pointed out his lack of context and views.

[CSL]

The I love warm weather votecount

Max (L-4) farside22
farside22 (L-4) Sando

Sando (L-5)

The Quintastic One (L-4) Max

Gheb (L-5)
startransmission (L-5)
DTMaster (L-5)

yellowbunny (L-4) DTMaster

Chronopie (L-5)

Not voting: Everyone else

With 9 alive, 5 will lynch

Deadline is Wednesday, April 21st, @ 8:00pm EST

~ "!" = indicates the wagon that will resolve at deadline

~ Max, farside22, The Quintastic One, and yellowbunny are all at L-4

[Sando]

I didn't imply that you should have left your vote on the claimed doc. I said that you removing the vote implied you believed the claim. I don't see how I can make that more clear?

[DTMaster]

Sorry guys catch up post. Also I AM NOT TAR. BUT I CAN'T TELL YOU WHY I LOOK LIKE HIM DUE TO ON GOING GAME STUFF. Posting soon.

[CSL]

yellowbunny has requested replacement. Searching for one now...

[DTMaster]

@Star
oh. Well counter claims are lacking therefore Star should be treated as confirmed townie!

@Max
I hate when that happens. TL:DR response

a. So how does that affect your read on Farside given that you've been neglecting KMD's play.
b. If you are talking about relative wagon play, any lurker type townies via Star or Jacob, or etc would be an easy wagon. Jacob's play wasn't spectacular so using that as a justification isn't really a good argument.

@Sando
693: 1. Um NK speculating avoidance is scummy how? NKs are directed by scum. We need to be very critical about that.

2. Farside had 2 pairings, where the second one was incomplete. Wut? How is this a slip?

3. Wut. So farside is scummy because: she believed the claim, and didn't look at the VC to look at who was voting Star? You do realize that you were one of the people who was voting Star as well as Farside.

Farside already demonstrated suspicion over Max when I addressed Zang before the replacement so that vote jump is consistent to who Farside finds scummy.

I should ask you: why aren't you VC analyzing Star's wagon when you accuse Farside for not doing the same thing.

Hey lets look at the wagon itself to see who voted Star for what reasons. Hmmmmmmm.

startransmission (L-1) The Quintastic One, Sando, farside22, Gheb !

TQO - The bulk of the case was continuing KMD's legacy and to vote based on gut. TQO supports this with some NK analysis but the main reason is that TQO feels Star is scum. There is also some change from defending Star to calling Star out. I need to reread in context to double check the transition.

Sando - You lead off with the fact Star voted at deadline for deadline. Good argument. Then... well you talk about NKs and attack Farside. Not the strongest read and leaves me hanging :S. The Max and Gheb wagon needs rethinking, but I don't see continuation of those cases from you. If we go back to your overall case on Star I kinda see: overzealous defence as an argument via his policy statement. I also see you calling Star as lazy and not caring about the game. Not the most convincing argument as your opening day 2 statement on Star, but meh.

Farside22 - Uses VC analysis to point out scum was on Jacob (very likely since this wagon went through quickly). Max V/LAed and Farside voted Star. This is good reasoning. Other arguments include: Star = leads off with neutral reads and band wagoning voting. Ok, solid posting.

Gheb - Like KMD hes still a carrier of the active lurking/passive agressive Star/ coasting/ bandwagoning... and I can go on. All game Gheb has been attacking Star/Spring.

If we look at the VC of Star, the ones that put the most content in Star is Farside/Gheb. Sando, you have less arguments per say to Star, and I could only find one good argument out of 3. TQO has been making strong statements about Star all game, but has the weakest of all the arguments if we take day 2 alone. Yours isn't that far behind.

@Gheb
I agree. Star should be treated as confirmed. If the doc hesitates to CC, I recommend it since its 4 scum and 5 townies. Scum almost makes up half the town right now.

@YB
Omg... why does it end up in replacements. First with the Zang -> Max case I started. Now the YB case. GAH@!#@!$. I need a double day kill like now.

@CSL
I like the modding. It's better then last game lol.

Unvote
Vote Sando

[Sando]

Are you saying that NK speculation is scummy? You're saying that something we 100% know is both directed by scum and directed at town should not be at least looked at?

[DTMaster]

I'm saying we should be critical. Again this is the 3rd time saying we should be careful about NKs and use it as small part of your analysis. I just said we should be critical in the above post. Last time, I also said it should be a small part of your analysis.

NK speculation isn't scummy, but focusing solely on it is distracting to scum hunting.

I'm asking why you think Farside's lack of NK analysis is scummy. Farside already outlined a meta in the last game where scum framed townies through NKs. Coming directly from that to here, it makes sense that this kind of event is still fresh in someone's mind and they would be very wary of NKs. So I don't see your point on why this is poor on Farside's part.

You answered my question with a question good sir. Now that is scummy.

Plus the rest of my post?

[Sando]

@Sando
693: 1. Um NK speculating avoidance is scummy how? NKs are directed by scum. We need to be very critical about that.

2. Farside had 2 pairings, where the second one was incomplete. Wut? How is this a slip?

3. Wut. So farside is scummy because: she believed the claim, and didn't look at the VC to look at who was voting Star? You do realize that you were one of the people who was voting Star as well as Farside.

Farside already demonstrated suspicion over Max when I addressed Zang before the replacement so that vote jump is consistent to who Farside finds scummy.

I should ask you: why aren't you VC analyzing Star's wagon when you accuse Farside for not doing the same thing.

Hey lets look at the wagon itself to see who voted Star for what reasons. Hmmmmmmm.

startransmission (L-1) The Quintastic One, Sando, farside22, Gheb !

Sando - You lead off with the fact Star voted at deadline for deadline. Good argument. Then... well you talk about NKs and attack Farside. Not the strongest read and leaves me hanging :S. The Max and Gheb wagon needs rethinking, but I don't see continuation of those cases from you. If we go back to your overall case on Star I kinda see: overzealous defence as an argument via his policy statement. I also see you calling Star as lazy and not caring about the game. Not the most convincing argument as your opening day 2 statement on Star, but meh.

If we look at the VC of Star, the ones that put the most content in Star is Farside/Gheb. Sando, you have less arguments per say to Star, and I could only find one good argument out of 3. TQO has been making strong statements about Star all game, but has the weakest of all the arguments if we take day 2 alone. Yours isn't that far behind.

I'm kind of unsure where your analysis of me starts and ends, but I think I've quoted it all. I just wanted to confirm whether you were doing the same thing as Farside or something else before replying. Turns out it's something else.

1: NK speculation is good in 'normal' games I feel. I think, and have articulated multiple times why, that it is even better here. Specifically avoiding it and basically falling back on rhetoric of 'it's scummy' is itself scummy to me. Avoiding doing something that I think is pro-town is scummy, what's hard to understand about that?

2: Farside said in his slip:

yellow/start or start/lacey scum pairs

Really? He's identified 2 scum pairs there? Both including start? Mmmk, also notice the word 'or'?

3: Yep, I'm aware I was on the wagon, I realise I need to be examined as much as anyone else.

And I am looking at someone on the wagon...

Also, I've consistently attacked Start, I went after Spring pretty early.

I'm not sure where I said Start was lazy? I said they set up an excuse of V/LA, that had nothing to do with being lazy though.

[Sando]

@Sando
693: 1. Um NK speculating avoidance is scummy how? NKs are directed by scum. We need to be very critical about that.

2. Farside had 2 pairings, where the second one was incomplete. Wut? How is this a slip?

3. Wut. So farside is scummy because: she believed the claim, and didn't look at the VC to look at who was voting Star? You do realize that you were one of the people who was voting Star as well as Farside.

Farside already demonstrated suspicion over Max when I addressed Zang before the replacement so that vote jump is consistent to who Farside finds scummy.

I should ask you: why aren't you VC analyzing Star's wagon when you accuse Farside for not doing the same thing.

Hey lets look at the wagon itself to see who voted Star for what reasons. Hmmmmmmm.

startransmission (L-1) The Quintastic One, Sando, farside22, Gheb !

Sando - You lead off with the fact Star voted at deadline for deadline. Good argument. Then... well you talk about NKs and attack Farside. Not the strongest read and leaves me hanging :S. The Max and Gheb wagon needs rethinking, but I don't see continuation of those cases from you. If we go back to your overall case on Star I kinda see: overzealous defence as an argument via his policy statement. I also see you calling Star as lazy and not caring about the game. Not the most convincing argument as your opening day 2 statement on Star, but meh.

If we look at the VC of Star, the ones that put the most content in Star is Farside/Gheb. Sando, you have less arguments per say to Star, and I could only find one good argument out of 3. TQO has been making strong statements about Star all game, but has the weakest of all the arguments if we take day 2 alone. Yours isn't that far behind.

I'm kind of unsure where your analysis of me starts and ends, but I think I've quoted it all. I just wanted to confirm whether you were doing the same thing as Farside or something else before replying. Turns out it's something else.

1: NK speculation is good in 'normal' games I feel. I think, and have articulated multiple times why, that it is even better here. Specifically avoiding it and basically falling back on rhetoric of 'it's scummy' is itself scummy to me. Avoiding doing something that I think is pro-town is scummy, what's hard to understand about that?

2: Farside said in his slip:

yellow/start or start/lacey scum pairs

Really? He's identified 2 scum pairs there? Both including start? Mmmk, also notice the word 'or'?

3: Yep, I'm aware I was on the wagon, I realise I need to be examined as much as anyone else.

And I am looking at someone on the wagon...

Also, I've consistently attacked Start, I went after Spring pretty early.

I'm not sure where I said Start was lazy? I said they set up an excuse of V/LA, that had nothing to do with being lazy though.

[Sando]

Sorry for double post

[The Quintastic One]

*sigh* more replacements ahoy. I'd love it if it were possible to just lynch the playerslot and avoid another game delaying grind & defense of Goro's player slot that's going to just further distract from the real scumhunting, but that's the point isn't it? We can't afford a mislynch today based off of speculation as to why someone would replace out this late in the game. But damnit if I'm not completely frustrated.

I'm currently trying to read through the Sando Vs. Farside & DTMaster arguments and seeing if this is just more townn vs. town tomfoolery or if one of them actually is scum.

Because the way I see it, if Sando, DTMaster & Farside were all town fighting amongst themselves, and if we are to believe Star is our Doc, and I know that I'm town, that would be all 5 possible town members. Which would mean Max, Chronopie, Gheb and the GoroHonda player slot HAS to be scum.

I haven't fully come to that conclusion yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least two out of Max, Chrono and Goro were scum.

[Max]

a. So how does that affect your read on Farside given that you've been neglecting KMD's play.
b. If you are talking about relative wagon play, any lurker type townies via Star or Jacob, or etc would be an easy wagon. Jacob's play wasn't spectacular so using that as a justification isn't really a good argument.

No, Jacob's play was spectacular, just in the bad direction. Other players either appeared to be trying or giving at least one argument that had some substance.

And I haven't liked farside's play. Just I can't help but feel we're playing to different ends.

In lovers' open I only felt she was scum because of my partner. Before hand I'd felt pretty certain that she was working alongside me.

[Chronopie]

I'm currently trying to read through the Sando Vs. Farside & DTMaster arguments and seeing if this is just more town vs. town tomfoolery or if one of them actually is scum.

Because the way I see it, if Sando, DTMaster & Farside were all town fighting amongst themselves, and if we are to believe Star is our Doc, and I know that I'm town, that would be all 5 possible town members. Which would mean Max, Chronopie, Gheb and the GoroHonda player slot HAS to be scum.

I haven't fully come to that conclusion yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least two out of Max, Chrono and Goro were scum.

I can tell you right now that I'm not the scum you seek. I'm guessing that at least one of the sando/DTM/Farside is scum.

[Chronopie]

Vote: Farside

[farside22]

Sando I asked you the following:

Today I had start/yb or start with Chrono. Now I'm saying Max/chrono
Yb/? Means I don't know. So which pair did you disagree with?
Now that Start has claimed (which I don't see a counter claim and seriously I dont' mind if there was one since the mafia can WIFOM if they should kill Start or hope the other team does it. If were lucky both scum groups will target the claimed doc so no one dies.

In case you mised the or it means I found start scummy with either yellow or Chrono. I'm sure your missing this on purpose now.
Also I had Max/yb as a scum team earlier so which scum team do you disagree with? As I'm pointing to 2 different scum teams. So which one are you not understanding or seem to think I'm only trying to find one scum team?

[farside22]

Vote: Farside

And your reason's are what exactly?

1: NK speculation is good in 'normal' games I feel. I think, and have articulated multiple times why, that it is even better here. Specifically avoiding it and basically falling back on rhetoric of 'it's scummy' is itself scummy to me. Avoiding doing something that I think is pro-town is scummy, what's hard to understand about that?

Oh yes please let us WIFOM ourselves to death on NK speculation and who could be scum based on those NK's. Let's lynch the claimed doctor now since he is oh so scummy and forget he claimed doctor.
I have seen scum use NK's for WIFOM more often in this type of game where there are 2 scum groups then a normal game.

TQO: Sando's arguement and points are more about how I feel about NK's and calling it scummy and not seeing that I have been calling scum teams all game and calling it scummy. I would not say it was a valid case.
Can't say whether I feel his play is town. I would most deffinately have max, chrono as scum. Yellow bunny is on my scum list. I would definately have dtm on my town list.

[Sando]

Wow Farside, misrep me a bit more why don't you.

I didn't imply that you should have left your vote on the claimed doc.

Let's lynch the claimed doctor now since he is oh so scummy and forget he claimed doctor.

Either tell me where I ever said we should lynch the claimed doctor, or die. This is the third time you've made the claim that I'm trying to get you to lynch the doc, and the third time I've refuted it. Provide evidence, or you're obviously misrepping here.

Farside, you've played this before I take it, as scum? In this situation of 2 townies dead on D2, who would you want to lynch if you were scum, town or the other scum team, or don't care as long it's not your scum-team?

[Gheb]

@Chrono: I see you and Max scum for saying you don't see anything scummy in his post after I pointed out his lack of context and views.

I find this very weak.

So it's suspicious just because somebody else doesn't share this point of view with you? And based on this weak fundament you also conclude that they have to be a scumteam? Because they both simply agree to disagree with you? Is that your reason to lynch somebody at a time that allows so few mislynches?

[CSL]

Can you guys be more active? I know it's hard to since yellowbunny requested a replacement, but deadline is in a week.

[farside22]

@Chrono: I see you and Max scum for saying you don't see anything scummy in his post after I pointed out his lack of context and views.

I find this very weak.

So it's suspicious just because somebody else doesn't share this point of view with you? And based on this weak fundament you also conclude that they have to be a scumteam? Because they both simply agree to disagree with you? Is that your reason to lynch somebody at a time that allows so few mislynches?

1) chrono hasn't stated any suspicioun on his own without following others views so far this game
2) he doesn't share why he find nothing wrong with Max.
finally last time I asked a question like that to a player about another and I got a response like that they were scum together.
Finally I'm voting Max. Do you know this to be a mislynch?

[farside22]

@Sando:
What is the point of this comment?

I didn't imply that you should have left your vote on the claimed doc. I said that you removing the vote implied you believed the claim. I don't see how I can make that more clear?

You seem to keep thinking I should have left my vote there. Do I say I believe the claim? I unvoted because he was at L-1. I dont' see a counter claim so right now yes I believe the claim. At the time it was more of I don't want a hammer in case he's telling the truth reaction.
Thanks for misrepresting something I did and never stated.