Mini 948 - Victorian Vampire - Game Over

[Slaine Hayes]

@ ooba:So wait, you're not sold on Josh, but you want to go ahead and kill him? Explain that reasoning.

@Yosarian: If I thought someone was scummy, I'd be voting for them. If I think someone is town, you'll be the first to know.

[CryMeARiver]

Ok, I am now back from my V/LA and will have read through the thread soon enough. Sorry, I thought I'd have free Internet access at a Sheraton hotel, but apparently not.

[Darox]

Spyrex is scum, Ooba is town, Josh is VI.

Case solved.

Unvote, Vote Spyrex

[Darox]

@Yosarian: If I thought someone was scummy, I'd be voting for them. If I think someone is town, you'll be the first to know.

I doubt yosarian is only looking for absolutes here.

Who do you suspect most? Who do you suspect at all?

[Slaine Hayes]

I'm not really sure either way. I'm still getting a read.

Darox, what are your reasons for thinking SpyreX is scum and Ooba is town?

[Yosarian2]

@Yosarian: If I thought someone was scummy, I'd be voting for them. If I think someone is town, you'll be the first to know.

If you're town, then you need to start figuring out who your suspects are, trying to put pressure on them, and trying to scumhunt in general. Re-read the game, re-read people in isolation, make educated guesses.

If you're scum, then feel free to continue not doing anything, and I'll just keep voting you.

[Darox]

@Yosarian: If I thought someone was scummy, I'd be voting for them. If I think someone is town, you'll be the first to know.

If you're town, then you need to start figuring out who your suspects are, trying to put pressure on them, and trying to scumhunt in general. Re-read the game, re-read people in isolation, make educated guesses.

If you're scum, then feel free to continue not doing anything, and I'll just keep voting you.

This goes for everyone.

A lot of people in this game seem to be saying "I don't have an opinion, so I'm going to sit around and wait for one to fall from the sky"

[MagnaofIllusion]

Again I would like to apologize for my lack of activity. Not to say that I don’t have a good reason – I’m a CPA in the most hectic period of my profession’s year. Generally I’m more consistently active in games than I am here. Rest assured this last week has been an aberration. You will not see low activity from me again.

Moving on to game related topics – this is going to be a large catch-up post. Often people point to these posts by me as walls of text and decry them. But I’m not going to change my posting style, which I feel is effective long-term in hunting scum.

@ Sprex at 175 –

Firstly I had already ‘noticed’ as you put it Josh’s comments. That comment had clearly already been well covered by your back and forth. Notice that my question to Josh regarding his specific use of language meant to be inflammatory at 172. Do you think there’s any ground not covered by your interrogation? Josh, in my mind, clearly backtracked.

Secondly I don’t know what you’re going on about regarding your lack of clarity if you are addressing me. Josh is the one who made those statements.

Lastly please don’t assume your analysis of Josh is enough, especially this early in the game, for me to sheep along. I don’t need someone “to claim Mafia” to scumhunt. Sorry that my methods differ from yours.

I think the first jump onto me was leaping for a distraction. Especially considering Manga deserved no mention. He even quoted the post Manga did it.

Can you clarify what you are trying to say here? Because I see it as the following –

Josh jumped unto you as a distraction and quoted me (who is Magna not Manga BTW) while doing so. In ISO’ing Josh’s posts I only see that he only quoted me (as far as I can tell) at ISO 28. If you could clarify I’d greatly appreciate it.

how did you reach this conclusion?

Conclusion? It was a testing statement. I wanted to see Cruelty’s reaction, and the one given I found reasonable for someone making an offhand statement.

The logical path to follow based on his assessment of “being able to sling his vote around” is that he isn’t a power role and not scum. Both types of players who want, generally, to not raise any more suspicion than necessary in scumhunting (or leading in the case of Mafia). A VT has no important night powers to lose and thus can be more free with Vote / Analysis / Accusations. Of course given everything EB has said about the game and its subtext this isn’t anything but a WIFOM exercise. Which is why it was a reaction exercise and not a statement I believe 100% to be fact.

Hey CryMeARiver. Summary: vote Josh.

I still have a question from 172 waiting for your response please.

At this point I'm happy with my vote on Josh for his contradiction and I'm dubious of Magna's softclaim quote.

If you were really dubious you would have said something back with your first response. Any reason why you waited until after the hue and cry from Sprex, Darox and easjo before expressing it?

I was suprised that you were a vig and that you killed Josh.

Why were you surprised he wasn’t a Vig?

I've never seen that gambit before but not a fan, seems unethical. -1 cool point m'man.

Aside from the fact that cool points mean nothing what about the play seems unethical to you? It was a pressure tactic.

Such truths include "The mod will not outright lie to you" and "Votes and game-mechanical actions are real". It wouldn't have been unethical at all to simply claim vig and tell me you were going to kill me unless X. But you didnt do that. Instead you used the "game code" that we all trust as players, to try to get a reaction from someone that you would have been unable to get while actually following the rules.

Mafia is a game of deception on both sides of the coin. Scum and innocents use any tactics within the rules to gain whatever desired effects are. In reviewing the rules I see no GM indicated prohibition about using in-game mechanics in a deceptive manner.

@ CryMe – I’ve not been the most active but I’d like some input from you please.

Unvote, Vote: Josh

. Your reaction to Ooba's gambit stirs my interest enough to move my vote to you. I don't like your original backtrack, your casual use of words like crazy or insane in describing a perfectly reasonable interpretation of events or your overt reaction to Ooba's gambit.

[JoshTheStampede]

Mafia is a game of deception on both sides of the coin. Scum and innocents use any tactics within the rules to gain whatever desired effects are. In reviewing the rules I see no GM indicated prohibition about using in-game mechanics in a deceptive manner.

Ok, I guess that's how it works here. I play on other sites where trying to use powers you don't actually have is considered actual cheating and earns you a modkill or a warning. I'm not the only person in the thread who said it was unethical, so it's not just me. It never even occured to me that that was something you could do in a game of Mafia. To me it's like placing a vote that hammers someone just to see their twilight reaction, and then saying "Oh, wait, I was kidding that wasn't a real vote"

If it's a legal tactic here then ok, I'll have to remember that in the future. I still don't like it and everything I said about it stands. When someone says "kill: josh" in bold letters in some other game, I will assume he's lying until a mod tells me otherwise. I don't like that the rules force me to do that, but whatever.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok, I guess that's how it works here. I play on other sites where trying to use powers you don't actually have is considered actual cheating and earns you a modkill or a warning. I'm not the only person in the thread who said it was unethical, so it's not just me. It never even occured to me that that was something you could do in a game of Mafia. To me it's like placing a vote that hammers someone just to see their twilight reaction, and then saying "Oh, wait, I was kidding that wasn't a real vote"

I guess our Mafia educations are greatly different ... I come from the standpoint that you can only trust what the GM tells you (and even then sometimes not even that). And the twilight hammer vote analogy is flawed in that a valid Hammer vote is locked in .. there is no way to remove it. From my time here I think GMs have generally taken a substance over form opinion when faced with votes that might be considered technically flawed.

What site did you migrate here from?

[Darox]

Ok, I guess that's how it works here. I play on other sites where trying to use powers you don't actually have is considered actual cheating and earns you a modkill or a warning. I'm not the only person in the thread who said it was unethical, so it's not just me. It never even occured to me that that was something you could do in a game of Mafia. To me it's like placing a vote that hammers someone just to see their twilight reaction, and then saying "Oh, wait, I was kidding that wasn't a real vote"

If it's a legal tactic here then ok, I'll have to remember that in the future. I still don't like it and everything I said about it stands. When someone says "kill: josh" in bold letters in some other game, I will assume he's lying until a mod tells me otherwise. I don't like that the rules force me to do that, but whatever.

A better example would be someone placing a hammer vote but purposely formatting it so that it does not count. (Not unvoting, not properly bolded, etc)

Never assume a lynch or daykill is true until the mod acts on or purposely ignores it, even if you're the one doing the actions.

[Slaine Hayes]

Yeh I've gotten behind in this game. Will post more substantial material ASAP

[Yosarian2]

. When someone says "kill: josh" in bold letters in some other game, I will assume he's lying until a mod tells me otherwise.

Honestly, on this site, when you see that, it's a joke/attempt to get reactions 90% of the time. Probably because "daykiller that kills by bolding a kill in thread" is a very rare role around here (although it has been seen occasionally).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Spyrex is scum, Ooba is town, Josh is VI.

Case solved.

Unvote, Vote Spyrex

As much as I appreciate enthusiasm could you point to a few points that make it clear where you are coming from with these three points?

Especially in regarding to Spyrex and Ooba.

[cruelty]

If you were really dubious you would have said something back with your first response. Any reason why you waited until after the hue and cry from Sprex, Darox and easjo before expressing it?

I did say something, two posts later.

Aside from the fact that cool points mean nothing what about the play seems unethical to you? It was a pressure tactic.

I don't know how relevant this question is, but I'll answer and then be done with the subject. I think there's a fairly distinct line to be drawn between lying as part of the game (fakeclaims etc) to lying with the express purpose of making a player think they're

out

of the game.

There's a difference between lying (and outwitting) somebody, and abusing mechanics (that we generally trust in) to gain an unfair advantage.

[SpyreX]

Firstly I had already ‘noticed’ as you put it Josh’s comments. That comment had clearly already been well covered by your back and forth. Notice that my question to Josh regarding his specific use of language meant to be inflammatory at 172. Do you think there’s any ground not covered by your interrogation? Josh, in my mind, clearly backtracked.

Secondly I don’t know what you’re going on about regarding your lack of clarity if you are addressing me. Josh is the one who made those statements.

Lastly please don’t assume your analysis of Josh is enough, especially this early in the game, for me to sheep along. I don’t need someone “to claim Mafia” to scumhunt. Sorry that my methods differ from yours.

He did backtrack. I'm saying on TOP of that he's not even genuine - his vote for me for "rolefishing" AND the whole "don't give information that's bad" when your little stunt should have raised a flag and...nothing.

Which, of course, fuels the fire. (this should answer both your questions).

---

Slane needs to play the game. Immediately if not sooner.

[easjo682]

Conclusion? It was a testing statement. I wanted to see Cruelty’s reaction, and the one given I found reasonable for someone making an offhand statement.

The logical path to follow based on his assessment of “being able to sling his vote around” is that he isn’t a power role and not scum. Both types of players who want, generally, to not raise any more suspicion than necessary in scumhunting (or leading in the case of Mafia). A VT has no important night powers to lose and thus can be more free with Vote / Analysis / Accusations. Of course given everything EB has said about the game and its subtext this isn’t anything but a WIFOM exercise. Which is why it was a reaction exercise and not a statement I believe 100% to be fact.

thank you for clarifying

Never assume a lynch or daykill is true until the mod acts on or purposely ignores it, even if you're the one doing the actions.

I've actually been in a game where this cropped up, people tried to correct the GM saying that a player should be dead by now.

[ooba]

Zang just to paraphrase you,
i) You voted for me initially because you thought I was lousy day vig for wanting to kill someone 6 pages into the game and someone who in my own words, "wasn't sure about". It was more of a pressure vote than a scum-indicator vote.
ii) You unvoted when Darox mentioned suicide vig because "Hey, whats the use in pressurizing a guy who's going to die"?
iii) I'm just unclear on the last part - you voted me again after you found out I was not a vig because you really don't see the purpose in the gambit and think its distracting.

Have I got that right?

@ ooba:So wait, you're not sold on Josh, but you want to go ahead and kill him? Explain that reasoning.

Please read till the end of the page at least before posting

A lot of people in this game seem to be saying "I don't have an opinion, so I'm going to sit around and wait for one to fall from the sky"

QFT. Slaine's been mentioned but it also applies to the following two people:

TheSkeward:

You've exclusively tunneled on Josh for the majority of your posts. How does the last few pages reflect on your opinion of Josh being scum? Other players who you think are scummy?

easjo682:

You have to give us something to go on. Like I've pointed out before I see nothing except setup speculation and zero scumhunting from your side. even if you don't think "anybody is scum", I'd like your opinions on various players.

[JoshTheStampede]

I guess our Mafia educations are greatly different ... I come from the standpoint that you can only trust what the GM tells you (and even then sometimes not even that). And the twilight hammer vote analogy is flawed in that a valid Hammer vote is locked in .. there is no way to remove it. From my time here I think GMs have generally taken a substance over form opinion when faced with votes that might be considered technically flawed.

What site did you migrate here from?

Fair enough.

I didn't really migrate. I still play mafia on SomethingAwful and I have played on some other sites in the past. I learned to play via the live version (Are You A Werewolf, etc), and have also played on IRC, epicmafia, etc.

[JoshTheStampede]

EBWOP: Messed up the formatting there. The quote was from Magna, not me, obviously.

Fixed -EB

[ElectricBadger]

Vote Count:

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

(3) Ooba: Zang, JoshTheStampede, SpyreX
(4) JoshTheStampede: easjo682, TheSkeward, cruelty, MagnaofIllusion
(2) Slaine Hayes: CryMeARiver, Yosarian2
(1) Zang: Ooba
(1) SpyreX: Darox

(1) Not Voting: Slaine Hayes

Day One ends by April 20th at toll of midnight PST.

It was not until the mourners themselves began to sicken that the true horror of the attack became clear.

[Zang]

Why were you surprised he wasn’t a Vig?

I don't know what you are asking me here because in the post you quoted I was saying that I was suprised he was a vig.

 So are you asking why I was surpised that ooba was a vig or why I was suprised when I learned he wasn't a vig? 

I doubt yosarian is only looking for absolutes here.

 Spyrex is scum, Ooba is town, Josh is VI. 

Case solved. 

Unvote, Vote Spyrex

That's pretty conradictary. Why is SpyreX scum? And why is ooba town?

ii) You unvoted when Darox mentioned suicide vig because "Hey, whats the use in pressurizing a guy who's going to die"?

Pressuring someone doesn't work if they are going to die anyway.

iii) I'm just unclear on the last part - you voted me again after you found out I was not a vig because you really don't see the purpose in the gambit and think its distracting.

I have to agree with Josh, it's unethnical. This is the first time I have seen that gambit this way and I can see numerous flaws in it.

The point of it Is to get reactions out of scum right well now that the gambit is so widely used, scum should know not to react so differently than town. And also the person that reacts to the kill is only scum if the "killed" person is scum.

Do I have that right?

[Darox]

I doubt yosarian is only looking for absolutes here.

 Spyrex is scum, Ooba is town, Josh is VI. 

Case solved. 

Unvote, Vote Spyrex

That's pretty conradictary.

How?

Because if you actually think about it, it's not.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't know what you are asking me here because in the post you quoted I was saying that I was suprised he was a vig.

So are you asking why I was surpised that ooba was a vig or why I was suprised when I learned he wasn't a vig?

In my rush to make sure I got content in I clearly butchered that question. Let me clarify the question. Here are your series of Posts regarding the Ooba gambit.

Oh shit,

Vote:Ooba

will post something relevant later

I didn't connect that to him being a suicide vig. In that case

Unvote

I did know that you were a vig but I didn't know you were a suicide vig. And me saying "Oh shit" was meant to be like "oh shit, wow. I didn't expect ooba to be a vig," I didn't write that much because I had little time.

Your post at 201 shows surprise to me that Ooba has made a Dayvig. Why?

Since I’ve had to revisit I have another question also. Did you not read Ooba’s post, since you unvote at 204 because you didn't realize he was a suicide vig? Ooba clearly states he’s dead – “This also means I’m dead. Hope it was worth it.”

How?

Because if you actually think about it, it's not.

Meanwhile you’ve dodged my question as to why those conclusions were drawn and completely ignored the second part of Zang’s statement, which asks the same thing. Please provide your reasons Why they are scum, town and VT specifically.

[Zang]

I doubt yosarian is only looking for absolutes here.

 Spyrex is scum, Ooba is town, Josh is VI. 

Case solved. 

Unvote, Vote Spyrex

That's pretty conradictary.

How?


Because if you actually think about it, it's not.

I guess it's not as contradictory as I originally thought but you still have not answered why SpyreX is scum and Ooba is town.