Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[Seraphim]

I seriously doubt no one will surprise hammer her on the first day of Day 2. Bleah. Alright, fine.

Vote: Pom

[Seraphim]

Also, Javert, we simul-posted. I answered your questions, I hope.

[Patrick]

Votecount

Pomegranate (5) -- Albert B. Rampage, RichardGHP, Porochaz, Jahudo, Seraphim
Porochaz (1) -- Javert

Not voting: Everyone else
18 alive, 10 to lynch.

Deadline: 1st of May

[Javert]

Well, that was a fortuitous simul-post. Thank you for getting back to me on those questions, you did indeed answer them. I have just a couple follows ups:

1.)

1) In my experience, scum are less likely to commit their votes at the beginning of a wagon. As the wagon progresses, scum are more likely to jump onto a wagon. This reasoning might be completely wrong but this is how I feel.

I disagree here. Consider the following situation:

Scum are an early vote on a particular player, and that player then has a wagon on them. Do you think the scum are likely to unvote? Or are they more likely to move somewhere else?

I think scum are going to stay on the wagon, for three reasons:

->

a.)

They might be able to get a lynch out of it (assuming this is a good thing for that scum);
->

b.)

Even if it results in a mislynch, they have the wonderful defense of "

I

wasn't opportunistic, but look at X, Y, and Z"; and,
->

c.)

Even if the vote does not result in a lynch, it is a great way to avoid having to vote for somebody you do not want to vote for (i.e., a partner).

With this reasoning applied, this is why I am concerned with Porochaz's vote being on RichardGHP for practically all of Day One. And looking back on the vote counts, this reasoning applies almost equally well to Faraday (who actually had a more wagony vote), though I didn't notice that until just now. It feels to me that both of those votes were "ride it out" votes.

FoS: Faraday

.

2.)

2) There are a lot of players I would like to lynch right now, Richard among them.

I would ask that you read over the game again and decide if you think RichardGHP is

really

a partner of bv310. I have not liked RichardGHP's play this entire game, but I really am thinking he is not scum at this point.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I like Faraday, I think he's town.

[Seraphim]

Javert: I would like to lynch Richard, not because I think he is scum currently, but because I feel his play is detrimental to the town. I also think he's town and a VI but that doesn't mean I don't want him lynched. I certainly hope he's not around for LYOL.

And we have a difference in opinion, and that's fine. I don't think it's a particularly good scumtell because town are so likely to do it too and, as you have pointed out, scum are just as likely to do the inverse. It's more like the icing on the cake.

Also, the point is mostly moot since bv flipped scum which is really cool.

[Javert]

Javert: I would like to lynch Richard, not because I think he is scum currently, but because I feel his play is detrimental to the town. I also think he's town and a VI but that doesn't mean I don't want him lynched. I certainly hope he's not around for LYOL.

Sigh.

FoS: Seraphim

.

It is

possible

we just have widely different theories when we approach games, but I simply cannot see how this position can be endorsed. I cannot vote for somebody I think is probably Town unless (i) I am doing so for the sole purpose of avoiding a No Lynch when I think No Lynching is improper, or (ii) doing so objectively increases the town's percentage of winning.

Simply because somebody is "not helpful" in the game, that does not mean their presence is not helpful. Playing mafia is ultimately a game of numbers --

every

townsperson counts. Every town necessarily has its members who are annoying or look scummy, but towns who win are those who manage to avoid lynching those exact players. Scum only have to get so many mislynches before they win, and Towns should not do anything to put them closer to that number if they can help it.

Now if you think RichardGHP is scum and want to lynch him, that is another matter entirely, but advocating lynching somebody you think is Town without a solid reason behind it (such as the two I mentioned above) is just wrong. The better path is to let nature take it's course with RichardGHP -- it is already unlikely he will survive until late in the game, and if he does, we may actually have found a way to clear him by that point if he is Town.

Finally, what do we really learn if we lynch RichardGHP on the reasoning that "he is probably Town, but he is not useful?" If he is Town, then it doesn't really help us catch other scum, because then everybody on the wagon can simply say "Well, we were right, at least he is dead now."

That said, I feel compelled to point out that calling for a Vigging on an unhelpful player is another matter entirely, precisely because (i) it is possible we don't have a Vig, and (ii) it is possible we

do

have a Vig who will allow us to "gain" a town-directed kill if they manage to kill twice during the course of the game, and (iii) we might be fortunate enough to have a Serial Killer or opposing scum-group who would like to rid us of such a player without us having to waste a lynch in the hopes of later looking town themselves.

Lynching is town's most powerful tool, and it ought not be squandered on players you think are town.

[/steps off of soapbox]

[Espeonage]

I agree with the lynch of Pom at the moment.
I have been away and am under suspicion so if you have questions ask them.
Pretty sure that boberz is town after reading through that part of day 1.

Anyways,

Vote: Pom

[Seraphim]

Javert, I think you are misunderstanding me or I am not stating what I want to state in a manner that is easy to understand. Probably the former.

I think Richard is town but if I had a chance to kill him, I would. I'm not supporting his lynch. I don't think I would vote for him even if he was wagoned now. What I'm trying to say is that...gaaaah...how do I put this?

It involves how I play the game. I find town players and try to find scum though I don't always succeed in that regard. Richard is a VI, a player I personally will always have nagging doubt about. While I have a town read on him, it's a weak read. His actions are not pro-town but he's not scum. This is a terrible paradox for me.

Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

[Seraphim]

Esp: why do you agree with the lynch of Pom? Why is boberz town? Also, you never did your analysis of the major wagons of the last day. You have been away quite a bit and have not contributed a lot to the game.

[Pomegranate]

Welp, at least we managed to hit mafia D1.

Vote Pom

Not really liking the quickhammer; it gives me bussing vibes.

I wouldn't really call it a quickhammer; I mentioned that it was a consideration of mine previously that day (or the day before) I think. And deadline was approaching. So, no.

Let her check in under pressure.

I'm sitting here refusing to feel pressured, even though a third of the players alive are voting for me first thing I see D2. Thanks for trying though.

I have to say that I notice people saying that maybe I did it for townie point at the end of the day, when a bv lynch was inevitable. I'm happy that a scumbag is dead. But I'm sure that scum is on my wagon. A quick, easy wagon to ride from the very start of the day. And PZ is dead. What could be better? So I think that there is at least one scumbag on wagon, if not two, because it's very convenient. Right now I'm thinking Espeonage, because he was a suspect of mine from yesterday, and he just made a really terrible post, which doesn't help him:

I agree with the lynch of Pom at the moment.
I have been away and am under suspicion so if you have questions ask them.
Pretty sure that boberz is town after reading through that part of day 1.

Anyways, Vote: Pom

And I think boberz-scum being his buddy is plausible. He gives a town read without explanation (when it's not really good to give town reads anyway,) on someone who is being suspected atm. And he give one sentence about his vote. And it's just really scummy.

Vote: Espeonage

.

tl;dr: Espeonage is scum. Lynch him.

[Albert B. Rampage]

^^^ See Seraphim, now that's a busjob.

[Javert]

I'm not supporting his lynch. I don't think I would vote for him even if he was wagoned now.

I have a hard time believing this, given that you just said:

Javert:

I would like to lynch Richard

, not because I think he is scum currently, but because I feel his play is detrimental to the town. I also think he's town and a VI

but that doesn't mean I don't want him lynched.

I certainly hope he's not around for LYOL.

Both of these bolded sections make it clear to me that you do, in fact, want RichardGHP lynched.

You should have "nagging doubts" about everybody; that is not a reason to lynch them. As I said earlier, it might be possible that RichardGHP could be confirmed to be town at some point, or that he might die of natural causes at some point. Hell, he might even be replaced eventually.

So: No, I guess I do not understand what you are trying to say.

[Seraphim]

I'm sorry Javert, it's just how I perceive the game.

[Espeonage]

Esp: why do you agree with the lynch of Pom? Why is boberz town? Also, you never did your analysis of the major wagons of the last day. You have been away quite a bit and have not contributed a lot to the game.

Pom is lurking in plain sight which unlike inactive lurking is a major scumtell. The rest of the case has already been stated but that hammer yesterday was pretty bad.

Boberz tried pretty hard to make the point he was trying to. At first I was suspicious but then I kinda saw his point even if he didn't state it well. Although the post he made right at the end after bv's claim is probably the worst post he has made unless I am misreading it.

The only other wagon of major note is the one on Richard and sadly he is most probably an unhelpful town. I didn't really ever see the case on him as all that strong when considering lother reasons for certain actions.

[Pomegranate]

Pom is lurking in plain sight which unlike inactive lurking is a major scumtell.

I would love to know how you feel that you are doing anything more than me, Espeonage. Yes, that was a question directed at you. You're jumping on a wagon without much of anything yourself. Ahh, hypocrasy at its best.

[Albert B. Rampage]

[Espeonage]

Pom is lurking in plain sight which unlike inactive lurking is a major scumtell.

I would love to know how you feel that you are doing anything more than me, Espeonage. Yes, that was a question directed at you. You're jumping on a wagon without much of anything yourself. Ahh, hypocrasy at its best.

There is a difference between being away and active lurking.

[Pomegranate]

Pom is lurking in plain sight which unlike inactive lurking is a major scumtell.

I would love to know how you feel that you are doing anything more than me, Espeonage. Yes, that was a question directed at you. You're jumping on a wagon without much of anything yourself. Ahh, hypocrasy at its best.

There is a difference between being away and active lurking.

Since you were away I can excuse what you

did

post as active lurking? It doesn't work that way around here, scumbag.

[Espeonage]

Your vote on me wasn't even about my lack of activity so I fail to see why you are arguing my point by trying to turn it on me.

[RichardGHP]

Welp, at least we managed to hit mafia D1.

Vote Pom

Not really liking the quickhammer; it gives me bussing vibes.

I wouldn't really call it a quickhammer; I mentioned that it was a consideration of mine previously that day (or the day before) I think. And deadline was approaching. So, no.

The hammer itself was pretty bad, considering you didn't give much reasoning and left yourself in a position were you didn't look like you were open to discussion.

So, yes.

[farside22]

Farside, do you think Jahudo is scum?

Not sure I just didn't like what he said at the end of the day and trying to move the votes off of bv. Sando did the same. I don't think scum would be obvious but then again it's hard to say without WIFOMing myself to death.

[farside22]

Pom I had my orginal scum comment view on you here
and a more fleshed out reason here

forgot I had dybeck on my scum list but bobz goes back on there till I reread a few things and the interaction I had with him in regards to bv.

[Sando]

My apologies people, my birthday yesterday and don't have a lot of time today either. Will have more tomorrow.

The Pom wagon, ABR is basically saying that pretty much all of Poms votes have been bussing, and is happy to accept that all voting on Pom is either town or bussing. This seems pretty normal play for ABR, but pretty bad reasoning still.

Espeonage, the joining onto Pom is incredibly opportunistic, and there's definitely scum on the wagon, either bussing or looking for an easy town lynch. Esp's is the worst of the lot by far.

Vote: Esp

Not sure why Sera is worried about a surprise hammer when putting someone to L-5.

Javert's attack on Sera looks way to high-and-mighty, looks like trying to appear pro-town with it. It didn't need such an in-depth rebuttal to his statement, looks try-hard.

[dybeck]

I'm sitting here refusing to feel pressured, even though a third of the players alive are voting for me first thing I see D2. Thanks for trying though.

That's easily fixed.

Vote: Espeonage

.

tl;dr: Espeonage is scum. Lynch him.

Can you explain a little further?