Open 201 v2.0 ~ F&I Mafia ~ Game Over

[yellowbunny]

Picking up prod.

As you all know, I have been on V/LA since March 27 due to unexpected IRL stuff, and if anything the situation is getting worse not improving. I'm giving the situation through the end of the weekend, and if things don't improve I'm going to replace out.

[Gheb]

Alright, as promised I'm going into detail on the Jacob wagon from the end of D1 as I think it's our best bet toDay if we want to find scum.

viewtopic.php?p=2188329#2188329

This is chauchau's post on why she thinks Jacob is scum. We know now that both Jacob and herself are confirmed town. This has me consider scum trying to nudge that push a litte more to get the mislynch down. Looking at the people on the wagon and how the joined it confirmes that idea for me:

Farside

viewtopic.php?p=2189005#2189005
viewtopic.php?p=2189358#2189358

Not very fond farside's 558 and 560 in that context because more than anybody else she pushed for my lynch. If she goes by the principle of lynching all liars as firmly as she claimed to do then I can't see why she'd join the Jacob wagon after catching me in a "lie". Looks like she was fine with either lynch at that point but was remarkably quick to switch wagons after chau's case.

kmd

viewtopic.php?p=2190474#2190474

KMD joins. Confirmed town and I think one of the first (if not THE first) players to voice suspicions against Jacob. Interesting connection: Players who were vocal about lynching Jacob were only killed if they actually had a legitimate case. People who just blatantly hopped the wagon are still alive (Max is the only one who actually had a genuine case I think). I doubt that so many townies can be THAT wrong at the same time. Fairly convinced that scum pushed the Jacob wagon hard based on that.

Yellow

viewtopic.php?p=2193524#2193524

Yellow joins. Very weak and compounds to my suspicions I already had against her and Goro. Hopping the wagon with such a fluffy post after OMGUSing me THAT hard is noteworthy. Surprised that nobody realized how fluffy and vague her reasoning was:

"His responses are getting worse ... he seems resigned to get lynched."
"He attacks his attackers which is anti-town."
"That single post throw a Major red flags to me."

Are you serious? How can yellow get away with something like that? That's like the cheapest way I've EVER seen anybody hopping such a wagon. Best part about it is that yellow has just requested replacement which means that her player slot once again can't comment on this. For fairness' sake I'm going to wait on it before I vote though just in case we get something productive out of it.

viewtopic.php?p=2194464#2194464

Start joins. Scummiest of the bunch imo. Start has literally coasted his way through all legitimate discussion (something that also applies to his preceedor) has already sheeped / OMGUSed the Gheb wagon earlier and now hops Jacob to make sure the mislynch's perfect. Not only was this the most opportunistic vote on the wagon but it was also one that had a very particular timing that shouldn't be disregarded. Keep in mind that Start has been remarkably passive, always hid behind other people's opinion when pushing for something and was always the last to place a vote when it mattered (in this case Jacob).
He was basically lurking his ass off and then votes off the next best townie for the mislynch.

Vote Start

[farside22]

@Gheb: Would pushing your lynch result in the same outcome as lynching Jacob?
The only reason I've backed off is two players that flipped town didn't see what you did as lying. It could be exaggeration. I don't know.
I do like your vote right now. What did you think about the points I made thus far on my top 4 scum suspects.

[CSL]

Votecount coming.

[CSL]

The Sucky Weather votecount

Max (L-5)
farside22 (L-5)
Sando (L-5)

The Quintastic One (L-3) Chronopie, Max

Gheb (L-5)

startransmission (L-1) The Quintastic One, Sando, farside22, Gheb !

DTMaster (L-5)
yellowbunny (L-4) DTMaster
Chronopie (L-5)

Not voting: Everyone else

With 9 alive, 5 will lynch

Deadline is Wednesday, April 21st, @ 8:00pm EST

~ "!" = indicates the wagon that will resolve at deadline

~ startransmission is at L-1!
~ The Quintastic One is at L-3
~ On an unrelated note, how is my modding?

[startransmission]

L-1 huh?

I think after I finish up my current games I'll take a little break from mafia. RL is jampacked for me right now, and I apologize that I haven't contributed to this game my normal activity and level of play.

Right now I'm looking at Sando and Max. I'll elaborate shortly.

[DTMaster]

Sorry I've been handling too many games for my own good right now. I've been juggling that and school, and etc...

@YB

So...I'm not even sure what you are trying to get at here. I *think* you are saying that because I thought Jacob was scum that thought his lynch was inevitable, that somehow indicates something about my alignment? If that's correct, then I do not have any idea what logic you have for that argument. If that is not what you are trying to say, please clarify.

I'll put it in other words: You stated that Gheb was scummier then Jacob but Jacob's lynch was inevitable. This isn't very pro town because what it looks like when I read this as: scum settling for an easier lynch as stated by Sando.

It also is quite bad on both yours and Gheb's part because it does look like subtle distancing between scum partners, while settling for a lynch else where. I'm recalling the old game where Farside advocated for a counter wagon against Xolelf and a different target, while Xolelf advocated for a 3rd person different from the common wagon.

The words: "Jacob's post are more incriminating" doesn't sound very pro-town. It reads more like scum watching someone go up in flames that is not part of their faction, and you slipped via your reasoning on why you wanted to vote Jacob.

@Sando
a. Scum also can work NKs to make town draw wrong conclusions, or draw no conclusions. It's a treacherous road and should take up a minor part of someone's analysis.

b. Your 666 (evil): should include, scum is able to scum hunt due to the existence of an opposing group. They would be able to blend in easier due to this.

@Farside
1. Current scum list include: YB (with possible linkage to Gheb in hindsight now), Max (via Zang still), Star

2. The lacy spot wasn't on any of those two wagons though. :<

@TQO
I thought I answered them earlier? I know I gave KMD my scum list earlier last day as well. With Farside's current post: I didn't post yet from the time I attacked YB to now. :S

@Star
Generally this is a claim or die. I'd rather focus on lynching YB. She is my primary lynch candidate, but she is V/LAed. I'll wait for your analysis/claim/etc.

[Sando]

@Sando
a. Scum also can work NKs to make town draw wrong conclusions, or draw no conclusions. It's a treacherous road and should take up a minor part of someone's analysis.

b. Your 666 (evil): should include, scum is able to scum hunt due to the existence of an opposing group. They would be able to blend in easier due to this.

Well...
a) Yeah it is a treacherous road, but so is all scumhunting. There's no magic bullet for hunting scum. And in a game where scum can only NK town and basically want to hit pro-town players, it seems more valuable than usual.

b) I thought I did, I said that scum want to lynch other scum, I didn't elaborate, but I thought it was obvious that this was because they couldn't NK them and needed to kill at least 1 somehow. So scum actually want to hit scum, so I don't think wagon analysis is as useful in this game. Also, scum don't really have to fear being seen as townie and therefor getting NKd by other scum, like they do in other 2 scumgroup games. I can't actually see a reason for scum to not scumhunt properly except on their singular partner.

Guess we're waiting on Star now then.

[farside22]

On an unrelated note, how is my modding?

Modding is going well. Lot less bumps now.

[startransmission]

@Star
Generally this is a claim or die. I'd rather focus on lynching YB. She is my primary lynch candidate, but she is V/LAed. I'll wait for your analysis/claim/etc.

I claim doctor. More later.

[farside22]

@Star
Generally this is a claim or die. I'd rather focus on lynching YB. She is my primary lynch candidate, but she is V/LAed. I'll wait for your analysis/claim/etc.

I claim doctor. More later.

ORLY?

Who did you protect and why?

[CSL]

Sando, please open your massprod. I know you posted here, but at least open it so it's out of my outbox. Thanks.

Also, no one has answered my question in my last votecount.

[farside22]

On an unrelated note, how is my modding?

Modding is going well. Lot less bumps now.

no one?

[startransmission]

ORLY?

Who did you protect and why?

I protected you. You were active and I got a town read off of you. You seemed like a likely target. Sadly I was wrong.

Gah, I know that I need to contribute more on the offense. It's on my mind, believe me.

[farside22]

ORLY?

Who did you protect and why?

I protected you. You were active and I got a town read off of you. You seemed like a likely target. Sadly I was wrong.

Gah, I know that I need to contribute more on the offense. It's on my mind, believe me.

unvote
vote: Max

*mutter something that no one should ever hear.

[Chronopie]

Maxes Iso is a little bare [/hypocrisy]

But he makes some good points, and atleast he was trying to find a good case on Jacob, rather than just lynch all liars.

I don't see it.

[The Quintastic One]

He's willing to lynch me simply because I'm voting for Start out of gut reads. He's got nothing else on me or anything else to compound on his case, he just doesn't like my gut vote. Then again, you share his same sentiments so I'm not surprised you'd come to his defense.

[farside22]

Maxes Iso is a little bare [/hypocrisy]

But he makes some good points, and atleast he was trying to find a good case on Jacob, rather than just lynch all liars.

I don't see it.

There were better cases made by others before him. Also I'm calling Max/Chrono scum team now.

I had YB now I need to think who YB is with.

[Sando]

Nope, still not liking Farside.

I don't like the avoidance of NK speculation
I don't like what was, i felt, a slip in only going after 1 scum pairing
I don't like the belief of the claim without looking at the motivation behind the wagon.

Unvote, Vote: Farside

[Gheb]

CSL, your modding is fine

Unvote

Sando looking more and more town to me based on him not sheeping the easier wagon at the end of D1. His thought process also lines up with mine right now. Play's between YB and farside toDay imo. Farside pegging YB as scum so certain makes me think of distancing or scum vs scum argument. Also would like her to elaborate on Max and his connection to chrono.

[farside22]

Nope, still not liking Farside.

I don't like the avoidance of NK speculation
I don't like what was, i felt, a slip in only going after 1 scum pairing
I don't like the belief of the claim without looking at the motivation behind the wagon.

Unvote, Vote: Farside

I explain why. Unless you chose to ignore my point then please explain why you disagree.
Not a slip I am looking for scums and seeing what fits. I had yb with start first but start has claimed so that scum team makes no sense.
So your point is what now?
So I should keep my vote on a claimed doctor who is at L-1 for the scum to hammer? That makes sense how?

[Max]

I'm back from my holiday ridiculously tired... so reading tomorrow then posting.

[Sando]

Nope, still not liking Farside.

I don't like the avoidance of NK speculation
I don't like what was, i felt, a slip in only going after 1 scum pairing
I don't like the belief of the claim without looking at the motivation behind the wagon.

Unvote, Vote: Farside

I explain why. Unless you chose to ignore my point then please explain why you disagree.
Not a slip I am looking for scums and seeing what fits. I had yb with start first but start has claimed so that scum team makes no sense.
So your point is what now?
So I should keep my vote on a claimed doctor who is at L-1 for the scum to hammer? That makes sense how?

I've explained why this game is different from normal games and NK speculation is more useful than usual. I'd let our disagreement about NK speculation go in a normal (1 scum group, or scumgroups that can NK each other) game, but your stubborn refusal to even acknowledge the difference and explanation that I've given, and now accusing me of ignoring your points, when I'm pretty sure I specifically quoted you, merely confirms my opinion.

Where did I ever say you should keep a vote on him? I said that you appeared to believe the claim (removing your vote) yet ignore the possibility that a wagon on a doctor could be scum motivated and immediately move onto others. Nice attempt at twisting though.

[The Quintastic One]

Due to the fact that there has been no counter claim, as much as I wish to continue following my gut, there comes a time when brute force evidence has to knock down the normally indispensible wall of gut suspicion.

It could still very well be that Start is scum and that the Doc is just playing it safe and not counter claiming this early, but I for one am not willing to take the risk of lynching our only protection from nightkills.

Unvote

[Chronopie]

Farside's general play just seems off to me. (read: scummy)

The discounting of NK spec. when in this game is has more potential use than most, and 'forgetting' that we have two scum teams, seems scummy.

On the other Hand, I disagree with sando on the point of believing the claim. L-1, doc claim, when doc is the only PR, seems believable to me. Although I still have the typical wifomy star=scum-fakeclaim-for-cc->NK doubts. And I did have a towny feeling from star.

--

Liking TQO more, Farside less.

Unvote
FoS: Farside