Riddle Me This! NY111 - mafia dead - Town wins!

[Quagmire]

Quagmire, what is easier about lynching ksun than RGHP? Give one reason that separates the two, so those on ksun might vote the other way.

He's at L-2.

That is not a reasonable answer.

And yes, I really think you're scum. I've not seen anything from you but vague accusations and theory. And your stance on Korts is unbelievably wretched.

I'd be willing to bet money that Korts is scum, and you must not be familiar with how I play.

[Yosarian2]

Scum priorities:
1. Don't get lynched
2. Prevent scumbuddies from getting lynched/get townies lynched instead
3. Find power roles

Town priorities:
1. Find scum
2. Lynch scum
3. Don't get lynched.

Both scum and town want to not get lynched, yes. But the priorities are different. If someone's scum, then everything they do is geared towards not getting lynched and looking town; if someone's town, then they should be more concerned about finding scum, and only trying to not get lynched as a secondary priority.

In this case, looking at his post, it sounds like all he cares about is not getting lynched;

he's willing to bandwagon, or not bandwagon, or do whatever, just so long as people stop attacking him. He was clearly very frustrated in that post, but sometimes, that's when people become the most honest.

I don't agree with the bolded part, but regardless I don't think it's scummy as a townie to try and lynch someone else when there's a legitimate threat that you get lynched. After all, if Richard is a townie, the only person he knows is town is him, and everyone else statistically has the same chance of being scum.

Sure, but that's not what I'm saying.

Let me quote the post again:

Do you realise how hypocritical you all are?

If I bandwagon, you'd think I'm scum for jumping on an easy lynch.

If I post a case on someone, you go out of your way to find flaws in it, so you think that I'm scum.

I'm a little confused. Would you rather I just blatantly bandwagoned? Because any attemp at posting a case on someone will only get shot down by overwhelming opposition, I can almost guarantee you. Make up your minds about what kind of votes/cases you want to see, otherwise I'm just going to plough on regardless.

The impression I get from this post is that everything he's done, the cases he's made, the way he made them, and both the way he got on the Izzy wagon and then later the way he got off of it, were directed to try to figure out what he could do that most people would think looked pro-town. I think that all game, even before he was seriously under attack, he was more interested in protecting himself then in doing stuff that might actually find scum, and that's scummy.

[inHimshallibe]

Quagmire, what is easier about lynching ksun than RGHP? Give one reason that separates the two, so those on ksun might vote the other way.

He's at L-2.

That is not a reasonable answer.

And yes, I really think you're scum. I've not seen anything from you but vague accusations and theory. And your stance on Korts is unbelievably wretched.

I'd be willing to bet money that Korts is scum, and you must not be familiar with how I play.

I'm familiar with how you're

playing

, and I don't like it, not one bit.

[Yosarian2]

Quagmire, what is easier about lynching ksun than RGHP? Give one reason that separates the two, so those on ksun might vote the other way.

He's at L-2.

That is not a reasonable answer.

And yes, I really think you're scum. I've not seen anything from you but vague accusations and theory. And your stance on Korts is unbelievably wretched.

If I'm right, and RichardGHP is scum, then Quag is probably town. That one post of Richard's just screams "scum buddying up to town".

Honestly, my gut instinct would be that Quag is probably town regardless, but I can't really justify that beyond my previous experience with him.

[Korts]

I'd be willing to bet money that Korts is scum

Make that a pack of cigarettes when I go to Beloit, and I will bet you that your adamant attack on me is dishonest.

I will read the rest properly tomorrow.

[Yosarian2]

I'd be willing to bet money that Korts is scum

Make that a pack of cigarettes when I go to Beloit, and I will bet you that your adamant attack on me is dishonest.

I will read the rest properly tomorrow.

Deadline's in like 20 minutes, Korts.

[RichardGHP]

I'm glad Yos finally realised that it's RichardGHP and not RichardGHB.

I'd be willing to bet money that Korts is scum

I get that people like Korts can be annoying and pushy at times, but that doesn't automatically make them scum, and the other reasons you gave are pretty thin. Scum rarely if ever play like Korts from my experience.

Scum priorities:
1. Don't get lynched
2. Prevent scumbuddies from getting lynched/get townies lynched instead
3. Find power roles

Town priorities:
1. Find scum
2. Lynch scum
3. Don't get lynched.

Your logical fallacy: Points 2 and 3 of Town Priorities tie into each other. Town trying to lynch scum entails keeping themselves alive as well. Therefore, townies have reason to want to stay alive, since you can't scumhunt if you're dead. Once again, your logic fails. Also note that not getting lynched is on both lists, just because it's higher on one list than on the other gives almost no indication of alignment whatsoever.

Putting your own welfare ahead of scumhunting would normally be a scumtell, but the fact is, too many townies do it to be able to tell the difference. See, the thing is, self-preservation, because it's by and large performed by town, indicates town trying to keep themselves alive, which can not, under any circumstances, be a bad thing. You just said yourself, the main goal of town should be to find and lynch scum. When the majority of players who are more concerned with themselves rather than lynching scum are town, lynching those who don't want to die then becomes sub-optimal, which is not in the best interests of the town.

[RichardGHP]

Also there's like 2 hours until deadline...

[Yosarian2]

I'm glad Yos finally realised that it's RichardGHP and not RichardGHB.

I'd be willing to bet money that Korts is scum

I get that people like Korts can be annoying and pushy at times, but that doesn't automatically make them scum, and the other reasons you gave are pretty thin. Scum rarely if ever play like Korts from my experience.

Scum priorities:
1. Don't get lynched
2. Prevent scumbuddies from getting lynched/get townies lynched instead
3. Find power roles

Town priorities:
1. Find scum
2. Lynch scum
3. Don't get lynched.

Your logical fallacy: Points 2 and 3 of Town Priorities tie into each other. Town trying to lynch scum entails keeping themselves alive as well. Therefore, townies have reason to want to stay alive, since you can't scumhunt if you're dead.

Townies also can't find scum if they don't do anything but try to stay alive. If they play like that, the town loses.

2 and 3 are very different. Yes, townies want to not get lynched, that was part of my point; but a townie playing properly is going to hunt scum aggressively even if it means he might get pressure for it.

The thing that you're missing here is that all a scum has to do to win is to survive. That's it. One single scum survives until the end of the game and dosn't get lynched (or targeted by a town power role), the scum wins. For a town, living is much less important; a pro-town person dosn't want to be lynched, but he shouldn't let fear of getting negative attention get in the way of scumhunting properly, because finding a scum and getting a scum lynched improves your chances of winning much more then simple survival does.

What I'm talking about here is a general difference in how town and scum play. That's how you figure out someone's alignment, is because there are ways where ideal town play and ideal scum play are different, and therefore town and scum just play differently, and this is one of them.

Once again, your logic fails. Also note that not getting lynched is on both lists, just because it's higher on one list than on the other gives almost no indication of alignment whatsoever.

Oh, you're wrong about that. It can be but the difference between "I'm going to do everything I can to stay alive, no matter what" and "My main goal is to find scum, and I also want to stay alive" is pretty big, if people are playing properly to their win conditions.

Putting your own welfare ahead of scumhunting would normally be a scumtell

Yes.

, but the fact is, too many townies do it to be able to tell the difference.

(shrug) Some townies make that mistake. However, scum do it much more.

No scumtell is perfect; a good scumtell is one that, if you see someone do it, the odds of them being scum go up significantly, beause scum do that action more then town. This is a good scumtell.

See, the thing is, self-preservation, because it's by and large performed by town, indicates town trying to keep themselves alive, which can not, under any circumstances, be a bad thing.

Self preservation is not a bad thing. Defending yourself is not a bad thing.

Having self preservation be a higher priority then finding scum is a scumtell, it's something scum do more then town.

I'm not sure how many more ways I can explain this.

You just said yourself, the main goal of town should be to find and lynch scum. When the majority of players who are more concerned with themselves rather than lynching scum are town, lynching those who don't want to die then becomes sub-optimal, which is not in the best interests of the town.

Wait, what?

If the majority of players in a game are more worried with self preservation and with keeping their own head down then with finding scum, town is probably screwed. I don't believe that's at all true this game.l

Is this your defense, Richard? Is your defense that you're a pro-town person playing badly who's more concerned with self preservation then with finding scum?

[Yosarian2]

Also there's like 2 hours until deadline...

Good. We might have enough time to lynch you then, if anyone else checks this game.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Why are you wishing for anti-town things to happen, Yos?

[RichardGHP]

Deadline is in a few minutes according to my own blind calculation... needless to say I am not the lynch for today.

[Yosarian2]

Why are you wishing for anti-town things to happen, Yos?

:eyebrow: How is lynching Richard anti-town? Do you really think he's likely town here, Izzy?

[Yosarian2]

Deadline is in a few minutes according to my own blind calculation... needless to say I am not the lynch for today.

Hopefully you'll get vigged tonight, then.

[RichardGHP]

Deadline is in a few minutes according to my own blind calculation... needless to say I am not the lynch for today.

Hopefully you'll get vigged tonight, then.

Why are you so hellbent on me dying? Am I really the most anti-town player in the game, anti-town enough that I need to be disposed of immediately? Didn't think so. Nice try, scum.

Yos tomorrow guys?

[inHimshallibe]

Deadline is in a few minutes according to my own blind calculation... needless to say I am not the lynch for today.

Hopefully you'll get vigged tonight, then.

Why are you so hellbent on me dying? Am I really the most anti-town player in the game, anti-town enough that I need to be disposed of immediately? Didn't think so. Nice try, scum.

Yos tomorrow guys?

:gasp:

[The Fonz]

Richard, Yos' case against you isn't unreasonable. And your responses are basically 'nuh-ah.' If you want to be useful, try to get past the OMGUS instinct.

Still here, still want ksun dead.

[mipe]

The deadline seems to be up :/

[DeathNote]

~The deadline passed at 10:00 P.M. today. Lynch scene forthcoming.~

[DeathNote]

Final Vote Count

dahill1- Thestatusquo (L-10)
mipe - PaltryExcuse, ksun482, sorasagoof, FeFiFoFum (L-7)
RichardGHP- scotmany12, Mipe, Yosarian2, Quagmire, korts, Shanba (L-5)

ksun482- dahill1, The Fonz, inHimshallibe, iamausername, Anon, RichardGHP, DizzyIzzyB13, VasudeVad, Zoraster (L-2)

With 20 alive, its 11 to lynch

The town gathered at the center and the sphinx awakened.

"This is our choice!" They cried in unison, forcing the trembling Ksun forward.

The sphinx looked carefully at the man then... lunged forward and devored him. Smacking its chops, the beast's face twitched then gave an approving nod.

"

The man you choose was indeed evil. Go. Sleep. Tomorrow is another busy day.

"

Ksun482 was devoured day 1. He was a

Mafia Even Night Doctor

.

Night lasts till this Saturday, April 10 at 10:00 P.M. All powers must be submitted by then.

[DeathNote]

March little soldier one by one...

Give me a chance to flee from your gun...

All we ever wanted was a little bit of fun...

Yet you keep marching little soldier one by one...

Dawn breaks and the town gathers at the sphinx. It looks about the crowd, counting whom is there and whom is not. After a brief moment, it is established that two people are gone.

Sorasgoof was found in his house, a hole blasted through his chest. He is brought before the Sphinx.

Korts is the other one, his body dumped into a river after being cut to pieces.

The Sphinx studies the two and announces...

"They were both innocent. Once again... you must go and find me the evil in this town. You have till dusk."

sorasgoof, the

Vanilla Townie

was shot night 1.

Korts, the

Odd Night Cop

was cut to pieces night 1

[Yosarian2]

Ok. I'll do a more detailed read-through later. At the moment, I'd really like to hear exactally why RichardGHP joined the ksun wagon in post 604. The timing looks odd to me; with the deadline coming up, Izzy and Va join the wagon, pushing it into the #1 wagon and the likely deadline lynch. At this point, now that it looks like ksun-scum is about to get lynched, Richard joins the wagon giving no reason at all, and he never explaned it for the entire rest of the day. This looks like a bussing move to me, based on the timing. It could also be a simple self-preservaton vote, which would be null, but I don't think so, considering he only joined the wagon AFTER it appeared ksun was about to be lynched, not when they were tied at 6.

Richard, could you explain why you voted ksun here?

[RichardGHP]

ksun was the leading wagon going into deadline. Voting anyone else would be pointless.

The way Yos is still focussing on me with almost no mention of anyone else is suspicious.

Mod: Deadline, please?

~Deadline will always be listed on the first page. April 31st at 10:00 P.M.~

[VasudeVa]

Yos is definitely scummy. His post here feels like it's grasping, and I disliked how he handled D1. Although, I still would like to know mipe's alignment, to further analyze the votals D1.

Korts and sora's deaths mean they were on to something that made mafia(s) feel threatened. With Korts, I see two things: Either FeFiFoFum or Richard scum(based on his prime targets) or Quag pushing for Korts to seem town. I'd like to see FeFi get replaced first before I pick one of the either, since he is my prime target with 2 scummy actions D1(wagoning with Ksun and lurkyness above all others).

With sora, it's the mipe wagon. Other than that, I got nothing. sora wasn't really a top contributor, so I don't exactly know what other motivation mafia had to kill him off.

That's all for now.

[RichardGHP]

Yeah, the soras kill caught me off-guard too. With the way he wasn't conrtibuting scum could probably push a mislynch and then get off scot-free when he flipped vanilla. The logic behind the kill puzzles me, unless sora played a very good game and left a faux PR breadcrumb.

I can't say I'm surprised by the Korts kill. With the townKorts flip, this obviously means we should look at Quagmire (one of the frontrunners for Korts' lynch). Other than that, nothing else immediately comes to mind.

Both the kills flipped town, so we spend today analysing reports if any; and looking at Korts' and sora's main suspects, and anyone who pushed for a lynch on either of the two.

Oh, and it's obvious that we have at least two killing factions (or one with a double kill due to consistent flavour[possible but unlikely]). The way I see it, if we DO have two killing factions, it's either two mafia, one mafia + one vig or one mafia + one SK.

Mod: Thank you for the deadline information; I have another question: Can you give word on whether two seperate killing factions would produce different flavour? If you don't feel like giving the answer that is fine.

I only ask because if we can figure out the possible setups now, it will be a great asset to us later on.

~Please note the change in the opening scene. I had it right on the front page but messed up on the death scene. Sorry~