Left 4 Dead Mafia - Day 6?

[Furry]

Deadline is tomorrow not today

unvote
vote almightybob

Last ditch not-jmj wagon, and a decent one either way

Why arent you voting jmj? You havent answered this yet

Why, do you want me to vote for him?

I'm not currently voting for him because:
1) I'm waiting to see if DocPotter counterclaims bv for the Bile or not before I move my vote anywhere
2) I'm waiting for you to satisfactorily answer the following question (this will be the third time of me asking you):

Also, the part I mostly wanted an answer to was

Please point to some aspect of his play that you feel is pro-Town. Because as far as I can see, all he's done is stall all game and then regurgitate arguments made by other people.

Yeah ok, ive said why he is town a few times. The case on him is amazingly weak, his actions scream town, there are only a few people more likely to be town in the entire game then him. Just look at the case! Just look at the lack of ANYONE but me trying hard to get another wagon going! Just look at the fact that EVERYONE is just going "hur hur, yeah its deadline lets lynch him"!

This is NOT a wagon on scum.

You also are pulling some ol'bullshit here by saying you are waiting for a counter to move your vote off a claimed PR.

@Anyone who thinks jmj might not be scum - Please vote almightybob

Also I see Amish wagon forming, would back that over jmj I think bob wagon has a higher chance of going through.

[jmj3000]

Alright, I have read over everything that has been posted today, but my brain is too tired to process it all. I'm going to do my homework and take a nap, and when I wake up, if I'm still alive, I will reread and try to process it all.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Mmm, if it comes down to a straight choice, I'll take an almightybob wagon over a jmj wagon, but I'm holding off moving my vote 'till I've done a re-read on Bob.

[Socrates]

God dammit. Getting people to vote in this game is worse than pulling teeth. We wouldn't be in this situation if it wasn't for people like Jmj who refuse to vote unless they are "100% sure" (do you see now why that is a terrible, terrible playstyle, Jmj?) plus all the fricken lurkers in this game. Charlie, Doc, Bv, deathnote, and any other lurkers I am forgetting deserve a swift kick to the nads regardless of their alignment.

Right now I am going to blindly wagon the person with the most votes who's name is not on this list:

Bv
jmj
Charlie
deathnote
Tar
Glork
Socrates

Tomorrow I shall do away with the list and just vote for the person with the most votes, even if that person is myself.

I believe Bob has the most votes right now so:

unvote, vote:Bob

[almightybob]

I don't rate the chances of this town running up a lynch from a standing start in 24 hours. That's 2, when it's 10 to lynch. jmj is a far more feasible wagon.
Plus, I honestly can't remember anyone posting a case on Amished or saying why they think he's a good lynch. Did I just not see it? If someone did post one, please link me.


@Furry:

*headdesk*
That post is full of such goddamn fail. Not one part of it says why I'm scum.

Just look at the fact that EVERYONE is just going "hur hur, yeah its deadline lets lynch him"!

[/quote]@Anyone who thinks jmj might not be scum - Please vote almightybob [/quote]
Hypocrisy! Woo!

Just look at the lack of ANYONE but me trying hard to get another wagon going!

So what you're saying is... the minority is having trouble swaying the majority? Remind me please, who are the minority and who are the majority, scum or Town?

Yeah ok, ive said why he is town a few times.

Please point those times out, because I just ISOed you and I couldn't spot them. All I could find was "jmj is Town, I'm super serial".

The case on him is amazingly weak

He's lurked, he's regurgitated other people's arguments and not produced any original thought or suspicions of his own, he's repeatedly stalled and refused to provide cases when pressured. He's also refused to vote "until I'm 100% confident".

You yourself

said refusal to vote was anti-Town play.

his actions scream town

You just keep saying this over and over, provide some goddamn examples.

[Furry]

I don't rate the chances of this town running up a lynch from a standing start in 24 hours. That's 2, when it's 10 to lynch. jmj is a far more feasible wagon.
Plus, I honestly can't remember anyone posting a case on Amished or saying why they think he's a good lynch. Did I just not see it? If someone did post one, please link me.

His move from thatguy to jmj is what stands out most on him. Its not really a lynch worthy thing though.

@Anyone who thinks jmj might not be scum - Please vote almightybob

Hypocrisy! Woo!

You may want to stop implying he is scum then.

Just look at the lack of ANYONE but me trying hard to get another wagon going!

So what you're saying is... the minority is having trouble swaying the majority? Remind me please, who are the minority and who are the majority, scum or Town?

So you think that since about page 10 im the one of the only people noisly trying to get a second wagon going and the primary wagon is on scum? There has been next to no resistance to the jmj wagon. This is an extreme rarity for scum wagons day one.

Yeah ok, ive said why he is town a few times.

Please point those times out, because I just ISOed you and I couldn't spot them. All I could find was "jmj is Town, I'm super serial".

And here I thought I kind of flipped out and pushed that hard yesterday... oh yeah I did. With you.

The case on him is amazingly weak

He's lurked, he's regurgitated other people's arguments and not produced any original thought or suspicions of his own, he's repeatedly stalled and refused to provide cases when pressured. He's also refused to vote "until I'm 100% confident".

You yourself

said refusal to vote was anti-Town play.

This "case" applies to a whole lot of players. Why are we lynching jmj and not thatguy, dramonic or pom if they have done most of these things as well? Also anti-town isnt always scummy, just annoying.

his actions scream town

You just keep saying this over and over, provide some goddamn examples.

I have been trying to do that. This just reeks of mislynch so much its stunning that so few other people seem to understand it. I (somewhat) hate to pull an experience card, but just about every strong player who has played quite a few games doesnt want jmj lynched.

[Steam-Powered Shovel]

I don't rate the chances of this town running up a lynch from a standing start in 24 hours. That's 2, when it's 10 to lynch. jmj is a far more feasible wagon.

You're right. The bobwagon has 4 votes, so that's still interesting.

Glrok, please vote for bob. He's the play.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

As far as I can tell, this is Furry's "jmj is town" case in full. Please point out if I've missed any posts of him making arguments relevent to this issue.

Actually if you read them both in iso, jmj has done more to explain his thoughts and suspicions then bv has, even if he refused to vote untill just now. While jmj isnt the epitome of town, he is way behind bv (and at least a handful others) on the list of who I want lynched.

True, but my point of he is actually taking stances stands. Bv has called one player scum on a weak tell from the early game, said the vote was for pressure, and since that point has made no attempts to either flesh out a case, or take a stance on any other player.

Quite a bit of gut really, but if you want me to go through and try and back it up I will. Just something about the way he is playing make me pretty confident he is just town in this situation.

-Slapdash explaination for whoever was asking is that he got wagoned for not doing anything, witholding suspects, etc etc. Him getting wagoned for that (over bv, pom, dram and thatguy, who all read similar) is what makes him town. The one of the large group that gets picked on for a tell they all commited usually is town.

I can even argue the "doomed VT" claim if I feel like it

What's that?

Its an awesome theory I use that actually works very well.

In scenarios like this one, a vanilla claim isnt going to get a wagon moving off you given the presence of an impending deadline. Most people are from the (stupid) school of "lynch all VT claims", most people at deadline will vote in a way that a lynch is positively ensured, even if it means they are moving against their best judgement. These two factor combined result in the "doomed vanilla town" claim.

Its a claim that will, almost beyond doubt, result in the players lynch given that they claim VT (so half the votes arent moving) and its at deadline (so the other half arent moving). It is actually playing against the scum WC to do this when they could make a move to out a role, or at least out quite a bit of benificial flavor for scum in these types of games.

I have seen this before, I have seen wagons get drug off VTs when people actually realize what is going on, most of the time though we get people like you saying "oh well lets just lynch him" while refusing to really think about what a VT claim means in this situation.

If you want to expand this to another tier we have a quoted PM. If he is scum and it was a fakeclaim, scum just burned one. In some games scum will get fewer then members of the team, so they would have just burned one.

jmj is town, I am completely serious here. Unvote him now. He isnt the epitome of town but that doesnt change his alignment.

[almightybob]

-.-

When I say "provide examples", I mean things like

Look at <post X>. He shows his Towniness here because of <reason>. <reason> is a Townie thing to do because <second reason>.

You do not do that, you just say "His play seems Town" over and over until you can say "no guys I've been pushing against the lynch really hard!".
If you're the only one pushing against the lynch, it could well be because your reasons for doing so are shit and/or nonexistent.

You may want to stop implying he is scum then.

Why would I do that when I think it's likely that he is scum?

This "case" applies to a whole lot of players. Why are we lynching jmj and not thatguy, dramonic or pom if they have done most of these things as well?

Lol at tabloid quote marks.
Because it's one day till deadline, and picking one of them would be just as arbitrary as picking jmj has been. I'll be happy to look at them tomorrow, but today I want to lynch him.
Besides, I don't think that case applies quite so well to them as it does to jmj. I'm sure I remember Pom for one coming up with some decent stuff on her own.

I (somewhat) hate to pull an experience card

Then don't do it. It adds nothing to the case, plus it relies on a highly subjective decision on the labelling of "strong" players.

[almightybob]

As far as I can tell, this is Furry's "jmj is town" case in full. Please point out if I've missed any posts of him making arguments relevent to this issue.

First quote - never provides any examples, so we have no idea where these explained thoughts and suspicions were. However, from context I suspect she means this post. It's the first time jmj really says anything about who he suspects, and if you'll look closely you'll notice that it's just the regurgitated thoughts and suspicions of what everyone else had said up till that point. I believe Socrates described jmj's suspect list as "the definition of safe".

Second quote - not a post about why jmj is Town, rather a post about why bv is scum.

Third quote - exactly what I've described: saying jmj is Town with no justification apart from a vague reference to his play.

Fourth quote - I disagree with this assertion.

Fifth quote - just a meta discussion, nothing specific to jmj being Town in it.

So yeah.



@people on my wagon: Please give me a case to respond to. Nobody has said why I'm likely scum other than it's not a jmj wagon.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

As far as I can tell, this is Furry's "jmj is town" case in full. Please point out if I've missed any posts of him making arguments relevent to this issue.

First quote - never provides any examples, so we have no idea where these explained thoughts and suspicions were. However, from context I suspect she means this post. It's the first time jmj really says anything about who he suspects, and if you'll look closely you'll notice that it's just the regurgitated thoughts and suspicions of what everyone else had said up till that point. I believe Socrates described jmj's suspect list as "the definition of safe".

He did stuff before that one post you've linked to. It's also curiously nitpicky to dismiss his points just because he hasn't linked to examples of posts that were happening around that point in the game anyway.

Second quote - not a post about why jmj is Town, rather a post about why bv is scum.

The first line is about jmj, in the context of a comparison as to why he is less scummy than bv.

Third quote - exactly what I've described: saying jmj is Town with no justification apart from a vague reference to his play.

I can't argue with that. I'm not a fan of the "gut" assertion either, even if it's sometimes the only way to explain something.

Fourth quote - I disagree with this assertion.

This requires more detail than just dismissing the point.

Fifth quote - just a meta discussion, nothing specific to jmj being Town in it.

That is a horrifically poor counter argyument. It's not a meta discussion it's a theory discussion, brought up to illustrate why he believes jmj's behaviour fits a predictable pattern that would indicate he is town. How you can dismiss that as being relevent to the jmj discussion is mindboggling.

That's not to say he's right, mind. I don't think he is, particularly in the context of this game. But the manner of your response is just... wrong.

[The AI Director]

The mod's word is final! Meaning that deadline is tomorrow at 7pm EST.

^_^

[Ifrinn]

*
Its 3am and my heads throbbing.
Uptodate.
Should have posted thoughts come morning.

Most outstanding thing jmj3000 wagon was bad.
Most scummy is thatguy00 followed by a few others.
As said. Reasions tomorrow morning hopefully with understandible cases.
*

[Glork]

Amished lynch >>>>>>> Bob lynch

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I wish there was a stronger candidate for lynch at this point. There are at least three people who're reading about the same level of scumminess without there being a clear leader and none of them really have much momentum behind them.

Ick.

vote: almightybob

, I guess. He's the closest to a lynch at the moment, and he's as good a candidate as any at this point. Glork overstates his Amished case and there's always thatguy who's doing a brilliant job of adding nothing to the game. I'd be happy to switch to either of those two in order to get a lynch right now, since a no lynch is a poor result for town at this point.

[Socrates]

What is frustrating right now is that if the town somehow miraculously picks a scumbag to make a deadline wagon on, all the scum have to do is lurk for 24 hours to avoid them getting lynched and they could get away with it since I am pretty sure there are a bunch of fairly inactive pro-town slots right now.

I want to hear some kind of vote related stance from: Ifrinn, Doc, Thatguy, Amished, Pom, and Bv

now

.

Glork, what do you plan to do if you don't get your Amished wagon in the next ~18 hours?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Hey guys, I've been kind of reading over, and I'll get something up tomorrow, just letting you all know, been busy last couple of days. I'm still around, and I'll be active tomorrow.

Any chance of this actually appearing before deadline?

[dramonic]

Unvote
Vote: Bob

Not my fave candidate, but better that than NL.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

I want to hear some kind of vote related stance from: Ifrinn, Doc, Thatguy, Amished, Pom, and Bv

now

.

Why those people in particular? What about dramonic, who's barely added anything after replacing in over a week ago and whose prior incarnations were xofelf who did nothing and CryMeARiver who's a cheat and banned?

What about DeathNote, who an ISO examination reveals has pretty much just defended himself over the whole PM request thing and expressed very few opinions so far?

You neglected both of those, despite the fact they've been posting with little to no content. Surely you'd want opinions from them, too?

[DeathNote]

The point is that Socrates considers me town for the moment, so he would rather hear from the people whom he considers scummy.

I have been defending myself, it is what I am used to doing so when the case is finally dropped on me... I feel kinda lost. Any reads I get are always affected by the fact of who pressured me and who defended me. Hence why I am voting bob...

[Socrates]

Those were all people who have not said or done anything relevant since the jmj claim. Dramonic was on record of prefering a jmj lynch to others, even with the claim.

I forgot DeathNote. That's how many lurkers we have in this game that I can name 6 people off the top of my head and still forget one. The way the wagon's have born out makes me think he is town at this time anyway.

(Incidentally, after Dram's last post, the chances that Bob and Dram are scum together are near zero.)

Now let me fire that question back at you:

Hey guys, I've been kind of reading over, and I'll get something up tomorrow, just letting you all know, been busy last couple of days. I'm still around, and I'll be active tomorrow.

Any chance of this actually appearing before deadline?

Why draw attention of Thatguy specifically? Why not Doc or Ifrinn, who have also made similar promises but haven't done anything?

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Hey guys, I've been kind of reading over, and I'll get something up tomorrow, just letting you all know, been busy last couple of days. I'm still around, and I'll be active tomorrow.

Any chance of this actually appearing before deadline?

Why draw attention of Thatguy specifically? Why not Doc or Ifrinn, who have also made similar promises but haven't done anything?

Ifrinn's most recent post promising content came just over two hours ago, promised content by a point we've yet to rech and at least contained a couple of notes on his thoughts at that point. DocPotter has not, to the best of my knowledge actually promised content at any point.

Thatguy, on the other hand, posted a couple of days ago, promising content the following day which has passed, and I queried him in a vain hope that we might actually get something from him before the end of the day.

[Glork]

Glork, what do you plan to do if you don't get your Amished wagon in the next ~18 hours?

I guess it depends on how other things shake down. But I can tell you're fishing for a wagon that you don't think I buy into, and that gives you bigtime minus points.

[Glork]

current vote count by my tally....

DeathNote (2): Ifrinn, bv310
jmj3000 (6): Starbuck, DocPotter, Amished, thatguy00, Pomegranate, almightybob
almightybob (6): DeathNote, Steam-Powered Shovel, Furry, Socrates, Izzy, dramonic
Amished (2): Glork, Tarhalindur
Charlie (1): jmj3000,

Not voting (1): Charlie


Charlie needs to vote
A few other people need to weigh in
Almightybob needs to claim

[Glork]

I will also submit that if Bob is town, JMJ is definitely town. JMJ as scum would have voted for Bob, no questions asked. Instead, he went after someone with virtually no heat on him -- Charlie. This tells me that JMJ is following his suspicions, not trying to merely save his own ass.