Karma Mafia (Game Over!)

[Jahudo]

@Richard: Can you respond to post 326?

-------------

@BV

I wasn't discounting him as scum, I just don't see any scumminess in his posts. It's funny though, that argument of "He didn't say scum, so he must be scum!" is almost never used by pro-town players.

Who says that argument is never used by pro-town players?

I don't think you've really explained why you found Papa Zito town enough not to consider it a possibility. You specifically asked someone else for "possible benefits", so did you also assume that they (or the town in general) would not need to consider a Papa Zito scum as a possibility?

Or was your question merely rhetorical? In which case, why ask it? Were you using it to start a suspicion on Esperonage?

[Patrick]

Votecount

farside22 (1) -- boberz
Albert B. Rampage (1) -- My Milked Eek
RichardGHP (8) -- Porochaz, Faraday, Sando, Jahudo, bv310, NickF227, Pomegranate, Javert
bv310 (7) -- Papa Zito, Anon, Seraphim, Espeonage, farside22, curiouskarmadog, RichardGHP
Espeonage (2) -- Ojanen, dybeck
Pomegranate (1) -- Albert B. Rampage

Not voting: Nobody
20 alive, 11 to lynch.

[boberz]

better

unvote

As I am the only one on the wagon it dont matter, but it isnt a good precedemt to set.

[curiouskarmadog]

Espeonage, My Milked Eek, NickF227 and curiouskarmadog prodded.

why am I getting prodded on Monday when I posted on Sat?...I will try to add something this week time permitting.

[NickF227]

Espeonage, My Milked Eek, NickF227 and curiouskarmadog prodded.

why am I getting prodded on Monday when I posted on Sat?...I will try to add something this week time permitting.

This.

And, in my opinion and my experience, player's like ABR aren't scum, they're just annoying. They'll probably be killed by a vig first night just so they don't accidentally pick off a useful townie because of a false read. Still, he shouldn't really be listened to because he's just screwing with people for fun.

I mean, his first post in this thread was complaining about 'active lurkers' and the new type of player.

[Patrick]

8.) Anyone not posting for 48 hours is proddable, though I'll sometimes wait until 72 hours depending on circumstances.

I was asked to prod someone, so just looked to see who else fell into the zone. I forgot to account for the weekend, though.

[boberz]

Good day all. I made some notes as I read throught the thread:

Richard inadvertantly kicks the game off, much too late btw. At least it made it easy to read.

Richard just seems a bit touchy with these votes on him. I sensed something similar.

Richard: "Everybody should vote me now."!?!?!

Poro could have left the attack on Richard to farside. But the attack itself is logical.

Great spot by Jahundo #148 on gambit

I dont like BV in #172/#173.

#195 sums it up pretty well.

I will be a lurker hunter and a scum hunter. They are both important and good.

ABR #23, if I had been in the game I would have killed ABR for this. Probably not scummy though.

I doubt seraphim and zito are scum together, the only thing I can point to is #239 but I sensed it from before here.

I disagree with #253 not fence sitting stating the obvious.

I agree Anon didnt look to have read completely, but I dont think this is necessarily a scum tell.

#280 the words I have looked for to describe my early day 1 play in all my game sso far. I agree.

ABR scumhunt!!!!#283

Why did Faraday put "(and many others)" in #287 feels like he is trying to seem towny?

#296 it wasnt a catch we had all seen it and it had been mentioned. It was a good summation

I like Anons posts but there are a lot of them

#309 he is still maintaining it was a gambit. It was not. If it was he is a really bad bad player.

very conveniant for bv to arrive just after RIchard.

I remember PYP4 as well. Dont care about this debate though.

#333 NO! BOTH.that is not hypocracy. People want oyu to scumhunt, and continue scumhunting, and defend your schumhunting, and scumhunt some more!!!

ABR #336 I dont like this play. If you dont like it then change it.

#358 "Is that what you wanted to hear!" Richard is scummy I tell you. But so is BV they are scummy together.

Dont like #410

I like #420 makes sense to me.

Zito lurks a bit in the second half of the thread.

---

vote: Richard

I cannot read all his inadequacies coming from a town perspective.

Wasnt overly happy with bv either for some reason Papa Zito started annoying me in the end part of the thread.

[Papa Zito]

Gosh boberz. Sorry to hear I'm annoying you.

It's going to suck having to bounce around the damn thread and figure out what these numbers equate to.

P.S. Zito is not lurking. Good God. Of all the people to accuse.

[farside22]

I needed to do a reread and catch up post. This will be a bit long.

bv310 post 97: How is porochaz the worst offender in prolonging the random stage?
dybeck post 119: Talks about the RVS and what poro did but he's calling out those who haven't said anything instead of responding to what is going on in the game as a whole. I find this pretty hypocritical of a comment.
Richard post 121: OMGUS remark. Doesn't seem to pay attention to the game as a whole either.
Richard post 125: And instead of responding to post 122 from myself does the vote for me response.
Richard post 137: Still missing the point of my question and comments in regards to his actions.
Richard post 143: The I'm a jerk comment
Richard post 146: In post 140 says he's not throwing a tantrum, post here says he was doing a "tantrum to elicit reaction". Also uses AtE asking if people couldn't empathise on him for one vote 3 times. (plays worlds smallest violin, poits to post 122 again and tells him to shove it)
Jah post 148: Really? voting for those who haven't posted in the game, at this stage in the game?
CKD post 157: If you know richard's meta did you expect him to act differently if he was scum?
Jahudo post 164: This is better at least now I understand your vote purpose here on the lurkers.
bv310 pst 169: This post seems like a contradiction all in one. Is richard town or newbie-scum?
espon post 185: I have read worse, please expand further.
Richard post 186: Typically if people were bw with no reason I may agree with your reaction. One vote on you three times no I don't see why you would be anxious.
MME post 200: looks like a filler post that offers nothing that sera didn't already say.
Anon post 206: Sando called Richard wagon the easy wagon not myself. Also I what to say if someone can't handle a player voting them 3 times without being testy then they have an issue playing mafia. Did you see me react to Papa? I see you keep ignoring this question.
Sera post 211: I would kiss you if I could.


@Anon: I'm still expecting an answer to this question:

What's the difference between what CKD did to rich that Papa Zito was doing to me exactly?

In case you "missed" again the what papa was doing to me I posted it here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 70#2182870

Also I want this question answered:

That is the tip of my reasoning. I had more reason's on top of that I expanded on as show above. You neglect those or did you just chose not to read?

Sando post 267: I believe anon was voting bv at this time what was the point of this question?

Jahudo pst 308: all those comments about lurkers and now you switch to richard after many pages later? WTF?

Espeonage post 321: So weak, so weak. Looks very opportunist after going after Anon for so long.

Nick post 328: Richard didn't vote for me in that post. Not sure where you are coming from in this post but it has no logic I can find.

Richard post 377: *headsmack* *headsmack* *headsmack* *headsmack* *headsmack*

Anon post 385: How is bv and Sando on the lurker list you posted here? What is your definition of a lurker? Why is ABR not on the list?

Oj post 390: You meantion the hounding from CKD on to richard but what about how Papa tried to hound me in the same way? Why would this be scummy to you?
@OJ have you caught up in the game completely at this point?

dybeck post 405: Why do you think this? And your vote is on ABR why?

Debeck post 410: Like yourself has been doing this game? Should I vote on you for the reason's you stated as you have been flying under the radar too.

ABR post 411: I seriously hate your game play right now. Either scum hunt, tell me your scum so I can vote your ass or asked to be replaced. your better then this.

Papa post 424: She always comes across scummy.

Richard post 433: And with comments like this he wonders why people are voting for him

Boberz post 456: All those comments and I don't have a clear view. I see ABR comments and Richard and Anon comments but I prefer to see a wrap up after writting on why you think a player or players are scum.


In short Richard still comes off as scummy. Bv310 hasn't improved on anything i see. MME is flying hard under the radar and I'm surprised those calling out lurkers are not saying boo about MME. Nick's post and reason's for voting Richard are god aweful and some of the votes I see going on Richard make me keep my vote on Bv310. Dybeck is hypocritical and I dont see any sound reasoning coming from him.
If I was a vig I would either shoot ABR or MME at this point.

[Albert B. Rampage]

@bobz, farside

Why are you quoting me from 5 pages ago when I have more important posts that are more recent? Pom should go. If not then BV.

[farside22]

Yes like brillant post like this is so informative

Wow, terrible reasons for voting Richard.

I have no intention of "starting a bandwagon", or "drawing up a case", but I think pomegranate outweighs bv310 (what kind of name is that?) and richard in scumminess by bricks.

Voting for Pom for a rhetorical question is scummier? Really since when?

[Albert B. Rampage]

Pom is keeping a low profile, refraining from speaking candidly as scum like to do, her stances are scummy and evasive. Pretty sure she's the scummiest person so far.

[farside22]

Pom is keeping a low profile, refraining from speaking candidly as scum like to do, her stances are scummy and evasive. Pretty sure she's the scummiest person so far.

And this is different that how you have been playing how?

[Papa Zito]

Papa post 424: She always comes across scummy.

That's no excuse tho. She's taken active lurking to a fine art.

Richard wagon is feeling like a counterwagon to me. If bv slips scum like I expect then you'll find plenty of his friends on there and Richard becomes likely VI.

bob, who are Richard's buddies?

[Faraday]

Pom wa slynched in PYP2 b/c of a fake cop claim. I don't think she would have been lynched that day if not. Her questioning of ABR is fine and all but it's been done and idk, I'd have thought she could be pursuing other avenues.

I'm going to go read Opensource mafia, she was scum there and I pegged her so let's see if there's any similarities as that game was quite recent.


Javert's first post was quite impressive and reads good to me. Gonna read boberz's but it's hard to follow and jump around the thread with the numbers the way they are but thanks for replacing.

Why did Faraday put "(and many others)" in #287 feels like he is trying to seem towny?

No idea what this refers to so let me go check and I'll give you an answer.

[Faraday]

I don't understand how you could possibly see that as 'trying to seem towny' when I was talking about mafia theory.

I was pointing out I find lurking scummy (and do many others) so the focus on 'stop da lurkerhunting' wasn't going to work, and was wasting more time than people looking at lurkers.

[Papa Zito]

Happy scumday, Faraday!

[boberz]

Sorry about the post numbers. I was going to do loads of quotes but thought it might be a wall. In hindsight I should have used links. Will do better in future.

@ABR I was commenting whatever occured to me as I read through, if your earlier posts trumped your latest ones in standing out to me perhaps that would be your bad.

@Faraday it was more your "as do many others" comment that just seemed like you were trying to make your comment look towny. I agree that lurking is a scumtell and hunting them is good.

---

I dont have the time or inclination to present a case properly tonight as I am tired again. Tomorrow I will do this on Richard who is my top suspect.

I will also explain why I think it may be BV and/or Faraday who is a partner. Although I think faraday may be more gut I will find out when I am compiling the case.

[Javert]

1.)

Porochaz, I am having a hard time understanding your opinion on the policy lynch subject. Here is what I see, from RichardGHP's point of view:

I have just finished playing Mafia 107 with curiouskarmadog. In that game, curiouskarmadog started the game by policy-voting CSL.

I was run up to a claim on Day One. After I claimed JoaT and the wagon started to go away, curiouskarmadog really started attacking me. For the rest of the game, he intermittently made comments about how bad and unbelievable my claim was, and how bad my play was.

Then we are both in this game, and curiouskarmadog's first two posts involve a “random” vote on me, followed by a “serious” vote on me, telling the town to “trust him, it will be easier that way.”

I cannot come to any conclusion from that position

other

than curiouskarmadog voting on policy reasons, regardless of what explanation curiouskarmadog gives for his vote after the fact. If curiouskarmadog had instead said his vote was completely random, I would not have believed him given that background.

2.)

boberz and farside22, a small request. I have a very difficult time reading posts like Post 456 and Post 458 because I don't remember posts simply by their number. Please either quote a small section of the post, or provide a link to the post (like I did right now). Even more preferably, group the posts attributable to a single player so I can get a better idea of what you think about who.

Pre-Post Edit: Looks like boberz just covered this, but the request still goes to farside22.

3.)

@bobz, farside

Why are you quoting me from 5 pages ago when I have more important posts that are more recent? Pom should go. If not then BV.

This is a ridiculous complaint. Reasons to vote somebody or to find somebody suspicious can come from any page of the game, not just what your most recent posts happen to say.

For example, if somebody is lurking all of Day One and then starts scumhunting on Day Two, the fact that they were lurking to start with does not go away, and is still a valid argument against them even if they are no longer lurking. Obviously, the time difference does not need to be as drastic as Day One vs. Day Two.

[dybeck]

I haven't yet picked up anything in farside's post that I personally think it worth pursuing as a line of questioning, there's plenty there and I'm sure that others will spot something I haven't. It's at least content.

dybeck post 405: Why do you think this?

I just don't really see anything that bad with anything bv310's done. Seems to be playing in a pretty similar way to he did in our previous game together - where he was pro-town. Incidentally, the exact same accusation about passively agreeing with other players were levelled at him there.

And your vote is on ABR why?

Seemed like a reasonable idea at the time. For the record, though, I'm going to stick my neck out and say that I've pulled a complete 180 on ABR and I would now like to declare him towards the top of my town list. And no, for the record, this is not me breadcrumbing daycop. I'm just flipflopping. Do scum ever actually exhibit the behaviour traits that he's showing? Really? Stimulating discussion without actually getting oneself lynched Day 1 is a fine art, and I'm really starting to like his style.

@Anon, Porochaz, Espeonage, My Milked Eek, Pomegranate: Who would be your top two pro-town players and your top two scum players, if you were able to lynch anyone right now?

[farside22]

@Javert: If you don't mind I will get those links for each of my post later. I had a lot of them I covered in the game.
@dybeck: I'm not going to even delve into that WIFOM you are so deftly pulling out of your ass on ABR. ABR is one of those players who will do the most unconventional thing whether town or scum. But knowing I have seen him play well as town and crap as town I don't let him fly by without poking him into a repsonse because his scum play is just as erractic.

[Ojanen]

Oj post 390: You meantion the hounding from CKD on to richard but what about how Papa tried to hound me in the same way? Why would this be scummy to you?
@OJ have you caught up in the game completely at this point?

Why would what be scummy to me? Hounding isn't scummy in itself. I've never reasoned ckd's behaviour as scummy, I don't really have a read on him yet. In this light, I don't understand what you're asking.
Coincidentally Zito's and ckd's actions do have a very different character to me. Zito was going "farside is scum, bandwagon gogogo" without reasoning. ckd was going "Richard totally sucks and policy votes gogogo" with obvious context from another game. But I don't see how that relates to the stuff I've said.
Yes, I am fully caught up.

[farside22]

I was asking you about your views after reading this OJ.

On Richard:
So I was totally on Richard's side at first. Ckd totally comes on as doing a policy hounding thing. That's more reaction inducing than random bandwagoning because it's directly saying YOU SUCK to someone's face. I thought this
and some similar accusations were kind of ridiculous, exaggerating Richard and downplaying ckd.

I'm not sure what you mean then by downplaying CKD's actions during the day. Could you expand more on this?

[dybeck]

@dybeck: I'm not going to even delve into that WIFOM you are so deftly pulling out of your ass on ABR. ABR is one of those players who will do the most unconventional thing whether town or scum. But knowing I have seen him play well as town and crap as town I don't let him fly by without poking him into a repsonse because his scum play is just as erractic.

I don't think I played with him before - but unconventional can be a good thing in a game like this where not much is moving very fast. Too often on this site people get lynched for standing out though. Historically, I used to play like that a lot and I've got a good few premature lynches to show for it (as town and as scum). Have you got a good example of his erratic play that you can point me to (like in other games)?

[farside22]

@dybeck: I'm not going to even delve into that WIFOM you are so deftly pulling out of your ass on ABR. ABR is one of those players who will do the most unconventional thing whether town or scum. But knowing I have seen him play well as town and crap as town I don't let him fly by without poking him into a repsonse because his scum play is just as erractic.

I don't think I played with him before - but unconventional can be a good thing in a game like this where not much is moving very fast. Too often on this site people get lynched for standing out though. Historically, I used to play like that a lot and I've got a good few premature lynches to show for it (as town and as scum). Have you got a good example of his erratic play that you can point me to (like in other games)?

I have 2 town games here.
Other games are in progress right now.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12759

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13180

Both he was town. One I saw more baiting. The second non existant taking over a non existant player. He was killed N1 in both games.