Mini 942: Gonzo Mafia - Game Over!

[Vi]

No question except the usual one.

I'm not the type of player to gather a bandwagon to my cause by pressuring others unless I am utterly convinced I have scum or the deadline is coming, just my style.

"Deadline Approacheth; Fatalism Reigns In the Face Of Impending Doom", end quote.
Do you still hold to your Jack vote?

I think it's entirely likely that flinter replaced out of here because she didn't like us/the game.
As for "you just think I suck", well, that's the impolite way of summing up my position at the time at least

Also, I take it you two don't have to share computers.~

On the other side of the coin, the number of times you have played me as scum... well, the number's a lot higher than 0.

Even when she's Town I feel like I'm getting played by Sotty.

[Zachrulez]

I can think of one game you fooled me but that was like two years ago (?) and a game were I was a jester and busy doing my own thing. But yeah I tend to bust you pretty hard, you're right about that.

Games where you are a jester don't count as me fooling you because you don't give a crap who is scum in those kind of games.

[Jahudo]

unvote

I've read everything, realize the deadline is looming and will try to pull all my thoughts together today--scum picks and a vote. And now I see what Vi meant with 'sorry'. I checked that other game but there's nothing I can read from it about reck's alignment here.

About the replacements:

- flinter did mention she was busy and posting to avoid a prod in her only other game (Tit for Tat), so the V/LA looks real. So even though she didn't replace out of that game, it seems possible that she wanted to try and handle 1 game. I don't see it as a tell either way.

- reck has seemed to give a couple different reasons for possible replacement. He claims V/LA busyness in post 170, but disinterest in post 202. The former is legitimate as far as I'm concerned, but the latter doesn't read as genuine to me. Also because I don't see how accepting your own lynch is pro-town in that situation.

@Reck: are those reasons connected in any way? If not, why are you disinterested?

[Zachrulez]

- flinter did mention she was busy and posting to avoid a prod in her only other game (Tit for Tat), so the V/LA looks real. So even though she didn't replace out of that game, it seems possible that she wanted to try and handle 1 game. I don't see it as a tell either way.

When you have 2 games, and you need to get rid of one, which one do you pick?

In this game she seemed pretty caught up, while she seemed behind in the other (Posting to avoid a prod is indicative of that.)

Now with no indication that she was behind in this game or too busy to continue posting on top of the fact that she replaced out without actually stating a reason. (If she was town and gave a damn you think she would have mentioned it.) WHY would you replace out of the game you see more into and NOT behind in and stay in the game where you're behind and need to catch up?

It makes absolutely zero sense to me.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD is hopping wagons like crazy and just told me in a no-longer-ongoing game that that's what he does as scum (and possibly D1 as well). This is simply a call-out not to let him continue this through D2.

"Reporter unsurprised to see own comments repeated back at him; slightly surprised at quickness of repetition"

I might've jumped a kyle/Jahudo wagon if it was still available because I got progressively more uneasy with kyle's play as I re-read his posts.

I also think I might've been wrong about flinter; I still find her play obnoxious but looking at the sum of it; it looks much more town that I anticipated. Barring someting out of left field I will not be voting for flinter/Jack today.

I'm happy with the xRecx wagon I'm on currently even after a re-read of his play. Bad cases and shifting motives make me want him dead.

[VP Baltar]

He tossed me the bottle and I drank deeply, then handed it back to him.

"Don't worry about having this stuff on your breath when they come for you,"

I said.

"I have a new electric toothbrush out in the car that will sterilize your whole thorax in ten seconds. I also have some very fine cocaine downstairs in the car, which you might want to use when your eyes start looking like they do now...."

I slapped him on the leg and hit the Old Crow again.

"Hot damn, Andrew!"

I barked at him.

"We are

warriors

. The time has come to

rumble

."

---

Vote Count 1-13

:

Jack ~ L-4 (Zachrulez, Sotty7, ortolan)

xRECKONERx ~ L-4 (Debonair Danny DiPietro, hohum, ekiM)
Sotty7 ~ L-4 (xRECKONERx, Locke Lamora, Vi)
hohum ~ L-5 (Percy, Jack)


Not Voting: Jahudo

With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lynch. Deadline is March 31 at roughly 3 p.m. (GMT -4).

[Zachrulez]

I find recks action antitown, but not scummy. So I have a neutral read on him. And that is the problem with most that I could comment on.

If I was really reaching for a conclusion, I would call zachs town:

votehopping is almost never scummy

, but it is good to show what you are thinking. If he didn't do this in previous games, this towntell gets stronger: he is rather using his vote for information discussion etc, then trying to find a good excuse for a vote whenever he votes (that would generally mean that he would vote less)

But, the use of votes is mostly a playstyle thing, so it isn't really a great tell. Random votes don't tell me a thing, tbh. VI's play is ok, but I think that is expected from him. Reck has already been named, and Hohum is quite unreadable for me at the moment.

So I'm trying to investigate, but there is nothing scummy that stands out for me yet. It would also help if I got to know some of the players better.

if you are scum, and someone makes a point against you that is quite ridiculous, what do you do:

A calmly explain why it is ridiculous.
B call that person a moron, etc.
C something else (please explain what you would do)

Please note the bolded statement. "Votehopping is almost never scummy."

Until ISO 23 of course when it suddenly is.

Reck is making mistakes, not being scummy. The wagon might be appealing, but is quite a random one.

I know very well what ad hominem means. As far as I know, Zach didn't even read my accusations, he just went on how bad I am as a player.

Now, he may think that fun, and all, but that doesn't mean that his votes on page 3 were well reasoned, or that there was any need for a votechange between them (the cases were very similar) Zach never replyed to this.

unvote vote zach

. You may have a friend in Sotty, but that doesn't mean you are right. Please tell me why you needed to votehop there.

Of course I did explain my reasoning for switching between Locke and Sotty later, but Flinter tries to pretend that I didn't. (See my iso 13.)

This of course is because she's under pressure and needs to discredit the attacks that have since come on her from my direction by making the motive behind them look scummy. (Completely contradicting her previously stated position that my votehopping was pro-town.)

How can you come to two different conclusions analyzing the same set of play and the information that comes from it? Necessity of course.

[Sotty7]

No question except the usual one.

I'm not the type of player to gather a bandwagon to my cause by pressuring others unless I am utterly convinced I have scum or the deadline is coming, just my style.

"Deadline Approacheth; Fatalism Reigns In the Face Of Impending Doom", end quote.
Do you still hold to your Jack vote?

Yup, I thought my catch up post made that clear. I think that slot is likely to yield scum. Jack's posting has been better but I can't just shrug off flinter's play. Also in his pushing of hohum he seems to be suggesting flinter's bailing in this game is scummy.

I would switch to reck if we needed a lynch. I can't see myself voting for hohum.

Also no, we don't share comps right now. That would be a little strange switching on and off during our last exchange at the end of the last page.

Zach post above makes me feel even more so that Jack should be today's lynch. That's a big backtrack.

[xRECKONERx]

@Jahudo: Actually, they are. I'm slammed for the next week or so (and for the past two weeks) with work and mid-term exams and projects. This game started up right in the heat of it, so I couldn't keep up, so I lost interest.

I'm really trying not to replace out because I've never flaked on a game, ever.

[Jahudo]

Here's my three suspects. I don't know who I'm most confident in without hearing responses, but with the deadline it looks like I'll probably be voting Jack.

@all: what is everyone's current feeling on DDD and Locke?
I'll try and post my reads on reck, sotty and hohum before the end of the day.
------------------

Jack/flinter: scummy (tho not because of Jack, just flinter)

@Jack:

I'm only on page 10 of my read, but so far I'm not liking Sotty or Zach.

Do you mean you had only read up to page 10, or only page 10 at that time?

@Jack: How much do you look for scumbuddies before a single scum flips?
You pair kyle and reck together but also think hohum is scummy, who has been voting reck pretty hard. Does hohum change your reck read at all? And what are your reasons for thinking reck is scummy?

flinter:
* In post 131 she defends her playstyle of not pressuring people harder than she feels confident in, but I think the pressure of being on a wagon made her act contrary to her playstyle in post 120 when she voted kyle.

The timeline roughly goes like this. 115) Percy asks flinter for her suspects. 116) flinter gives an unexplained feeling on kyle, saying she wants to see more from him. 118) kyle posts again. 120) flinter votes kyle.

But I see some inconsistencies in flinter's vote that make it look like she was more concerned with addressing the suspicions on her playstyle, and not confident in her kyle case to vote naturally.
-flinter says kyle only made 1 point in post 118, but I count 2. (reck comment, zach comment).
-flinter says kyle's change of playstyle makes her think he's scum. But she doesn't acknowledge that she wanted to change her playstyle for this game too (post 113), and that wouldn't make her scummy.

flinter:
* In post 132 she tries to "outguess the mod" with her stance on post restrictions

I think a postrestriction would normally most given to town, so asking if that was it, would semi confirm him.

I think its suspicious she used this statement in place of actual scumhunting to get a player read. She could have been buddying to Vi, or at least putting trust in someone's motivations and possibly their own cases without feeling compelled to analyze their motivations or reads.

--------------

DDD: scummy

I might've jumped a kyle/Jahudo wagon if it was still available because I got progressively more uneasy with kyle's play as I re-read his posts.

When was this? That quote is the first time you mentioned kyle, so why didn't you question him when he was still in the game?

Vote: DDD

Because he's going to wind up tunneling on me/calling me a shitty player anyway.

That Guy: Hey Danny, come vote for me, buddy.
This Guy (in a West Virgina accent): Wah shore.

Vote: xRECKONERx

It does look like DDD ended up tunneling on reckoner and calling him a bad player without explaining why.

He's said reck looks bad since post 84, but he never questioned reck in all that time. He agreed to a Vi case and it seems like he called for a policy lynch on reck's desire to get replaced. But he hasn't expanded on the reck case, so his involvement and confidence don't feel genuine to me.

@DDD: Has your confidence in reck been strong the entire game? If so, why no explain it more for people that weren't on his wagon during the day? Is meta part of your case too?

Was your confidence in flinter weaker throughout the game?

--------------

Locke Lamora: scummy
* In post 104 he doesn't like Vi's case on ekiM; that those things aren't scummy to him. But Locke's vote was on ekiM at the time, when it was the second largest wagon (L-4). I think its possible he was sitting on a wagon without having to approve of it because his reasoning came from the random vote stage (post 22).

He changes his vote in post 141, but that was after several people suspected him for behavior like this (his Zach pressure and town read). So it looks like he might have tried to push suspicion on some people early without having to stand behind a case.

@Locke: Why didn't you change your ekiM vote earlier?

[ekiM]

Why would you join a game you had no time to commit to? This "I won't replace out so I can claim I've never flaked" is hokum. If you're town you're damaging us

right now

with your inactivity, all so you can later

falsely

claim a badge of unfailing commitment to your games? Please re-assess your priorities:

looking

like an altruist, vs.

being

an altruist.

That said, I don't think you're faking here. Ugh.

---

I've really wanted to kill our VIs today, all day. I've just had a serious re-assessment.

---

xRx I believe has been genuinely under-committed. If not, I'll be pissed, but oh well. If you're not going to be active tomorrow please request replacement.

---

Rereading, kyle appears useless rather than scummy. I don't find his replacing out scummy as he did it elsewhere, too. flinter reads as a frustrated and somewhat non-orthodox newbie. Also, these two slots are now players I trust to be active. Waiting on Jahudo's assessment of the day.

---

Locke has never been in this game. He needs to be tomorrow.

---

Vi and Percy I both believe to be town. I hope I'm right.

---

hohum, ortolan, DDD. These guys trouble me. They've all been less involved than I expected. They've all been chasing the easy targets (hypocrisy, I know).

hohum hounding xRx's "lynch me" but not commenting on flinter replacing out is a serious point. Saying his vote on xRx is final five days before deadline is a red flag. I didn't believe his early push on Percy at all. Bad man.

DDD has been pushing flinter/xRx/kyle all day. He hasn't really done any proactive scumhunting, just twiddled his vote between the weakest targets. Since last weds all he's done pretty much is say "xRx wagon is good". Bad man.

ortolan again with the lurking and chasing xRx/flint. I like his interactions with kyle though. Inscrutable man.

I will support a hohum or DDD lynch today.

---

Zach/sotty. Hrm. They both seem to want a Jack lynch. I need to parse the last couple of pages a bit more. Posting this now, more soon.

[ekiM]

It's less than two days until deadline.

unvote; Vote: DDD

. Anyone?

[ekiM]

It is pretty funny really. Zach and myself are married and on top of that have played a ton of mafia games with each other so we're going to be linked. We have a lot of meta to work with and right now I just feel Zachtown. Doesn't mean I'm not going to push him, but it does mean I am going to call out BS attacks when I see them. flinter's was a prime example of a complete tosh case.

Of course abuse of meta and all that, he could be playing me, but I don't think so.

flinter is still playing in one other game at the moment but she isn't posting much, seems to be busy with school. Still she chose this game to leave there has to be a reason behind that. Now this “replacing out =scum” is somewhat weak seeing as her activity is low else where so I am going to leave that.

I still think that her push on Zach was awful.

You don't think the replacing out means much. So your whole case is based on flinter attacking Zach? And you're sure he's town, because you have good meta on him. Which flinter doesn't have access to. See the problem here?

FTR, That other game Flinter is in she has not yet replaced out in, and actually posted there after replacing out here.

Which is just further fueling my suspicion that she just couldn't take the heat.

She posted that she had issues with school. You're reaching.

You're arguing with your wagon-mate that the wagonee isn't scummy? Is flinter really your biggest suspect?

FTR, That other game Flinter is in she has not yet replaced out in, and actually posted there after replacing out here.

Which is just further fueling my suspicion that she just couldn't take the heat.

FTR, That other game Flinter is in she has not yet replaced out in, and actually posted there after replacing out here.

Which is just further fueling my suspicion that she just couldn't take the heat.

She posted that she had issues with school. You're reaching.

I also see a Vi wall I need to read.

Yeah, but she posted to stay in that game here. In this game, she never bothered to give a reason why she replaced out. She was into the game defending herself one minute, and then the next, she just wanted out... and she was MORE into this game than she seems to be in the other one, so the progression from that to replacing out just doesn't make any sense to me.

- flinter did mention she was busy and posting to avoid a prod in her only other game (Tit for Tat), so the V/LA looks real. So even though she didn't replace out of that game, it seems possible that she wanted to try and handle 1 game. I don't see it as a tell either way.

When you have 2 games, and you need to get rid of one, which one do you pick?

In this game she seemed pretty caught up, while she seemed behind in the other (Posting to avoid a prod is indicative of that.)
Now with no indication that she was behind in this game or too busy to continue posting on top of the fact that she replaced out without actually stating a reason. (If she was town and gave a damn you think she would have mentioned it.) WHY would you replace out of the game you see more into and NOT behind in and stay in the game where you're behind and need to catch up?

It makes absolutely zero sense to me.

Maybe she wasn't enjoying this game. She clearly wasn't on the same wavelength as anyone else, there's been too much lurking, etc.

I find it odd that you couldn't conceive of that possibility yourself.

No question except the usual one.

I'm not the type of player to gather a bandwagon to my cause by pressuring others unless I am utterly convinced I have scum or the deadline is coming, just my style.

"Deadline Approacheth; Fatalism Reigns In the Face Of Impending Doom", end quote.

Do you still hold to your Jack vote?

Yup, I thought my catch up post made that clear. I think that slot is likely to yield scum. Jack's posting has been better but I can't just shrug off flinter's play.

What specifically about her play?

I would switch to reck if we needed a lynch. I can't see myself voting for hohum.

Why? For both.

[Zachrulez]

Ekim, why did you avoided 331 in your comments regarding flinter/jack?

[Zachrulez]

Why did you avoid 331*

[Zachrulez]

It's less than two days until deadline.

unvote; Vote: DDD

. Anyone?

I'd be willing to switch to DDD before deadline. His play is reminding me too much of mafia 98. (Lurky and not proactive enough for my liking.)

I'd still much prefer Jack though as I think it's a much stronger lynch.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD: scummy

I might've jumped a kyle/Jahudo wagon if it was still available because I got progressively more uneasy with kyle's play as I re-read his posts.

When was this? That quote is the first time you mentioned kyle, so why didn't you question him when he was still in the game?

As Kyle has the ability to do, he settled right into my blind spot. The reason I noticed him again was the latest mentions of Mayor Mafia where scum-Kyle did basically the exact same thing and I realized I shouldn't let the same thing happen again. Combined with the lame replacing out he did it put him back on my board and after reading his posts I didn't like what I saw.

Vote: DDD

Because he's going to wind up tunneling on me/calling me a shitty player anyway.

That Guy: Hey Danny, come vote for me, buddy.
This Guy (in a West Virgina accent): Wah shore.

Vote: xRECKONERx

It does look like DDD ended up tunneling on reckoner and calling him a bad player without explaining why.

He's said reck looks bad since post 84, but he never questioned reck in all that time. He agreed to a Vi case and it seems like he called for a policy lynch on reck's desire to get replaced. But he hasn't expanded on the reck case, so his involvement and confidence don't feel genuine to me.

@DDD: Has your confidence in reck been strong the entire game? If so, why no explain it more for people that weren't on his wagon during the day? Is meta part of your case too?

Was your confidence in flinter weaker throughout the game?

First I'd really love for someone to explain this whole tunneling=scum thing to me because I swear not only is it inaccurate, I just don't see the logic behind it.

I don't do questions (or at least I don't think I do). I read, I analyze, I vote, I borrow other people's arguments and sometimes I even occasionally write up actual cases, but I really don't think I do questions.

I've seen plenty to dislike from reck and nothing that really looks pro-town to me. I've brought up the things I found interesting from his forced case on Zach to his threat to replace out and I quoted Vi in regards to his shifting meta reads and using his commitments as a smokescreen. I think it's tedious and not terribly helpful to cudgel the town with repetitions of the same arguments.

Weaker than reck I assume is the comparison you're asking about and the answer is obviously yes considering I unvoted her to vote reck again and don't much like the flinter/Jack wagon anymore. I think Mike raised a good point when I drew him into the discussion and while I don't like her playstyle; it seems more likely that it's playstyle not scumminess that bothered me.

[xRECKONERx]

Alright, here's my plan:

I have studying/a birthday party tonight, I have class 10-4 tomorrow, then work 5-close. So it's likely I won't get around to this game until Wednesday, but I'm seriously going to try. If I don't have something content-wise by Wednesday night, I'll replace out.

[Sotty7]

You don't think the replacing out means much. So your whole case is based on flinter attacking Zach? And you're sure he's town, because you have good meta on him. Which flinter doesn't have access to. See the problem here?

The problem was her case wasn't even close to good. She misused ad hominem to make it look like it was something. She abandoned a reasonable Kyle case for it simply because Zach was pressuring her. I don't see a townie motivation for that, do you?

You're arguing with your wagon-mate that the wagonee isn't scummy? Is flinter really your biggest suspect?

Just because I find someone scummy doesn't mean

everything

they do in thread is auto scummy. I keep my mind open and I thought Zach was reaching a little there although I see his thought process.

Yes flinter/Jack was/is my number one suspect which is why I have my vote on that slot

What specifically about her play?

I feel like I am on constant repeat, but her weak case on Zach combined now with the back tracking in post 331.

Why? For both.

reck because he isn't actually doing anything in the game. He's not scum hunting, seeing as he has parked his vote on me since the opening of the game and done absolutely nothing to pressure me. I can't recall who else he finds scummy at this point which isn't good.

Hohum because I don't see the case against him. It seems to amount to hohum is abrasive, I don't see how he has been scummy as the day progressed. I did intially find him scummy with his pushing of Vi, but he has fallen down my list a little as the game progressed because he is actively calling people on their BS, AKA scum hunting.

= = = = = =

I did just re-read the Percy/Hohum/Ort love triangle and I'm not seeing how hohum is scummy from this. I don't agree with Percy that hohum misrepp'ed him. Percy seems to try and paint hohum as active lurking in his vote post and I'm not buying that.

Ort seems to just fall into his hohum vote after being goaded into it. He also quickly abandons it. I don't like that that whole exchange.

I will say the solid point against hohum is brought up by Jack:

If you think something is scummy enough for a

final vote

, it doesn't take you almost an hour to make up your mind about it. And if you think it's that obviously lynch worthy, going out of your way to post a supporting evidence link is a sign that you are worried about coming under fire for it.

I would like to here hohum's explanation to that.

[Jack]

Do you mean you had only read up to page 10, or only page 10 at that time?

@Jack: How much do you look for scumbuddies before a single scum flips?
You pair kyle and reck together but also think hohum is scummy, who has been voting reck pretty hard. Does hohum change your reck read at all? And what are your reasons for thinking reck is scummy?

Only page 10 at the time. I look for a pairing, which is inherently suspicious. However, I'm not big on the xreck-kyle combo right now. It wouldn't have changed my hohum read either way, since it's both possible that xreck is innocent and that hohum is bussing.

I would put it at hohum--ortolan--Vi right now. Moving zach way down my list because sotty seems town and she thinks he's town.

[ekiM]

Alright, here's my plan:

I have studying/a birthday party tonight, I have class 10-4 tomorrow, then work 5-close. So it's likely I won't get around to this game until Wednesday, but I'm seriously going to try. If I don't have something content-wise by Wednesday night, I'll replace out.

The deadline is Wednesday afternoon.

[xRECKONERx]

FUCK.

[ekiM]

@zach: Dunno. Still had to go back and re-read that interaction.

flinter ISO 3 and 4, xRx and Locke had been quizzing you about votehopping, she'd said that was poor scumhunting because votehopping isn't scummy in itself. It can be a good tool for a pro-town player. ISO 15 she says:

Zach his posts on page three are seriously weak: Reck had a point here. Zach is making 2 active lurking cases already, and saying Hohum isn't aggressive enough. Sorry, 3 active lurking cases: on me too. (locke and sotty were the others).

Votehopping isn't the problem, it is that the votes are not very different, and weak.

ISO 23:

Now, he may think that fun, and all, but that doesn't mean that his votes on page 3 were well reasoned, or that there was any need for a votechange between them (the cases were very similar) Zach never replyed to this.

unvote vote zach. You may have a friend in Sotty, but that doesn't mean you are right.

Please tell me why you needed to votehop there.

I'm not a mind-reader but I think earlier she thought attacking you for votehopping

per se

is weak, but she did go back later and question the reasons for votehopping . I still have no idea what she was talking about with "ad hom".

Did you see her ISO 15? It doesn't look as much like a contradiction now I read that, than what you quoted. Agree? Disagree?

[Zachrulez]

None of the reasoning from ISO 15 was referenced when she cast her vote for me. She inquires about the vote hopping, so I can only assume that's the bulk of the reason for the vote.

Also think the point about me pursuing active lurkers being weak would carry a lot more weight if I were doing it on page 15 or so rather than page 3.

What I saw (and what I still see) in ISO 23 is Flinter voting me for vote hopping after saying it wasn't scummy.

[Jack]

Hammering isn't scummy, but you can still legitimately vote someone for hammering.