Open 201 v2.0 ~ F&I Mafia ~ Game Over

[Gheb]

Can somebody explain to me how to multiquote? It'd make things a lot easier for me to respond to and structurize posts. I'm having a hard time respong to all points.

[DTMaster]

@Gheb

You quote with this tag right? [quote="<INSERT NAME>" ] (get rid of spaces for it to actually work) [/quote ]

I personal type out each name when I quote. Or copy paste onto my Gmail draft and type type type.

[yellowbunny]

Okay, IRL stuff is getting a bit out of control. This game has already had too many replacements, so I'm going to try hard to get caught up. That said...

V/LA: til further notice

From skimming the posts I see I need to spend some time going over the case against Jacob, and whether it is more or less compelling than the case on Gheb. I know deadline is Monday, so I'll do that before then.

[yellowbunny]

Okay, IRL stuff is getting a bit out of control. This game has already had too many replacements, so I'm going to try hard to get caught up. That said...

V/LA: til further notice

From skimming the posts I see I need to spend some time going over the case against Jacob, and whether it is more or less compelling than the case on Gheb. I know deadline is Monday, so I'll do that before then.

[CSL]

Flavor

The intercom suddenly blared: "Attention all students participating the the proceedings, you have exactly one more class period before we pull the switch. Skipping classes is not good, but letting bad guys go is even worse. Thank you."

The podium lights are now blinking like crazy, as the bell rings, signifying that the final period began.

The

1

day until deadline votecount

kmd4390 (L-7)
Max (L-7)
farside22 (L-7)
Sando (L-7)
The Quintastic One (L-7)
Gheb (L-5) startransmission, Sando
startransmission (L-5) Gheb, JacobSavage
DTMaster (L-7)
yellowbunny (L-7)
yawetag (L-7)
chauchaudotcom (L-7)

JacobSavage (L-3) Max, kmd4390, farside22, chauchaudotcom !

Not voting: Everyone else

With 12 alive, 7 will lynch

Deadline: Monday, March 29th, 2010. 8pm EST.

~ "!" = indicates the wagon that will resolve at deadline

~JacobSavage is at L-3

[startransmission]

Okay, IRL stuff is getting a bit out of control. This game has already had too many replacements, so I'm going to try hard to get caught up. That said...

V/LA: til further notice

From skimming the posts I see I need to spend some time going over the case against Jacob, and whether it is more or less compelling than the case on Gheb. I know deadline is Monday, so I'll do that before then.

Word, my RL is a bitch atm. No V/LA form me, but it may be a few hours before I can post.

[Kmd4390]

Sorry Kmd your right I missed the case you presented in regards to Jacob.
I know the game was starting to fade but I don't know why you switched to spring/stat

No one liked my case until Cha presented it, so I looked elsewhere for the moment.

------------------

DT, I wasn't questioning why you suspect Max. You seemed to be sure Gheb had lied, so I was more asking why your vote was anywhere other than on him.

[DTMaster]

@Kmd
Because I found Zang scummier then Gheb? In honestly when I read TQO's post about Gheb's constant attacks on Spring/Goro and defence on Lacey, it made me reconsider the case. Hence why I put a marker

to reread Gheb because I didn't totally buy the case

. Zang however was better

and I made a case on it

Seriously. Why would I bother making a scum-case if I didn't find someone scummy. >>

Going to edit my Gheb Case post since I'm back from work now. I can post my framework if you think this is vapour ware.

[Kmd4390]

You seemed convinced Gheb had lied. I don't understand why you were voting anyone BUT a player who you believed had lied. I don't care what your opinion is NOW, it's THEN that matters.

[JacobSavage]

Vote: Startransmission

Vote of Self-preservation and Starting to think the he could be scum with DTM or Max?

[JacobSavage]

+ If I am going to be lynched, can I at least know who my supposed partner is?

and

b. Mafia is a team game . It seems you don't quite understand this.

A team game for scum, sure. But town, it is more working out who to trust, so for town, on the simplest level it is trust me because I know who I am not scum

[Kmd4390]

+ If I am going to be lynched, can I at least know who my supposed partner is?

One of Star/Yellow/DT

[DTMaster]

@KMD

When I said that The Gheb Case was compelling then I was still heasitant then!

@Farside
1. Doh' Forgot to answer the question in my post. I must be tired. Anyways how I would have handled the Foin situation in Foin's shoes when KMD voted me when he said he was "serious"

1. I would have asked for the case.
2. I would have also known that this is RVS stage and a comment like that was meant to generate discussion. 1-2 pages in does not generate enough content to present a case. Hence: an attack is ok, however RVS attacks are common and is a great starting point.

Foin chose to vote KMD, and started from there. I would have shrugged it off and moved on with my RVS vote, or a wagon vote to start the game off. Either way: KMD/Foin launched the game off somewhere, and we are here.

@Star
No I disagree with you since Spring showed signs of active lurking. Spring was obviously reading up because of this post:

Farside, what do you feel about the KMD/Lacey deal? It's very curious to me that you would still continue you case on her after it happened because I think something like that is very likely to polarize town's read on her.

I think she's been giving off very strong scum vibe before the trade offer, but has gone back to more or less neutral with her position on Kmd. And think Kmd looks the more scummy for it so it's curious to me that you would pursue her so.

Spring lukring is anti town. This post is scummy though. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=200 in post 211 was made

after the Lacey issue was dropped and KMD stated: Lacey was town and Farside wanted to drop the argument

This post is very, very scummy because does feel like Spring wanted to backtrack and reignite the argument all over again. To me, this reads as active lurking because Spring showed that: She's been reading in the time where she hasn't posted.

@KMD
1. The lie was more: taking credit for something you did?

@TQO

He continues to claim that he was the first to go against the Lacey wagon, which is super false. He also claims that he was the first person to suspect Spring and Goro, that the town later agreed with. Which is also false. But even if it were true “Congratulations! You have become suspicious of two lurkers! Hurray!” He also claims that he was the first to say that Lacey should not be lynched, which is also, super false.

I should do a reread right now but the question I find asking my self

Has Gheb been consistent in his stance with Goro/Spring/Lacey

I agree with this post:

Can you explain to me the difference between why you think he's a liar, rather than just exaggerating? That's the big thing preventing me from being confident in my vote.

This requires a quick skim of the Lacey wagon and Gheb's post early on. Gut says: something is off here.

@Max
Omg. Post god damn it. My vote/case is stalling on you. This feels like the spring case all over again.

@Jacob
1. Meta aw.
2. Ugh. I don't like your gross logic. Yes you were answering a question, no it wasn't helpful because rather then discus if X was scum is A or B buddies with him? You should scum hunt the scummy people. It's a pitfall to assign teammates like that. Take Londonfoggy town where we had an amazing case that created: confirmation bias on scum. We nailed one of them, but the other one got away after some initial pressuring. I believe the wolves in that game did an endgame busing manevour that won the game in the end. (Game link in my wiki)

@Mod

Prod Max. This isn't funny.

Specifically read the points addressed to TQO where:

This is the post you called me out on the Gheb line but at the same time I put a marker for myself to reread Gheb. Why would I want to reread Gheb KMD? Because: I wasn't totally convinced of Gheb's case.

Like seriously: Read this line

@TQO point where: Gheb appears to Exaggerate and the lie was more blown up

This requires a quick skim of the Lacey wagon and Gheb's post early on. Gut says: something is off here.

Even

THEN

I agreed with TQO.

[JacobSavage]

One of Star/Yellow/DT

Hey my fellow scum!

[chauchaudotcom]

Mod, I'm voting Jacob

I think I have trouble trusting Gheb and my read based on our last game together.

Link to this game please?

In this case I think Sando is scummier than the other wagoners mainly because he's reasons were really fluffy and looked like he's trying to use the current momentum to hop an easy wagon.

This.

Actually, isn't that intentionally misrepresentation by Sando right there?

Actually, that was precisely my point. I want to hear Sando's response to it.

We need one more vote to get you lynched over Gheb and I can see that happening. So simply, why are you town?

What was the purpose of this question? The only answer that can stem from this is, "because I am" or other statements that can neither be proved or disproved.

b. Mafia is a team game .

THIS! I remember in one of my newbie games one of the more experienced players said something that really stuck out to me. One of the biggest enemies in mafia isn't just scum but

paranoia

itself. We need to work as a team of town against the team of scum. Of course this doesn't imply blind trust but complete paranoia is unhelpful too. Look for scumtells

and

towntells.

Notice the time. I leave at around 7:40am, and was just giving and answer to Col before I left for the day, because I understand this is a predominately US-based site, so I chose what my gut reads where from my most recent memory to give the town something to work on. However, the reaction that I got, made me even more sure that my Lacey meta had been completely wrong, and that Col read was correct.

That's nice and all, but you didn't answer farside's question.

+ If I am going to be lynched, can I at least know who my supposed partner is?

Question. If you are town. Why would you want to know this? Besides the possibility of you throwing a bunch of wifom into the mix and confusing town when you do flip scum.

[Max]

What was the purpose of this question? The only answer that can stem from this is, "because I am" or other statements that can neither be proved or disproved.

I was expecting what I outlined below my response to "Because I am"

A) defend against the arguments given
B) attack a player with adept logic
C) don't say "I'm town" again unless you have done the others in the same post.

Defending yourself is important regardless of alignment. Saying because I am is not a defense.

Why are you town in the eyes of anybody but yourself

That better?

[Gheb]

So, I read through chauchau's case on Jacob.

Personally, I always thought that contradictions and flip-flopping stances aren't necessarily scum-tells. It

can

be the case but you should keep in mind that it's easier for scum to be consistent and to avoid such contradiction because they know who's

not

scum. A townie might simply be changing his mind - sometimes more often than people would consider "normal". But there's not always a scummy intention behind it and I'd like to hear what exactly the "scummy" part about Jacob's contradictions is. Before that I'm not going to vote him (unless we're about to hit NL before the deadlne).

I'd like to see Sando, Goro player slot or Spring player slot lynched toDay. The latter two blatantly attacked me instead even trying to respond to my accusations vs their preceedors - not saying that they have to explain everything in great detail here but just OMGUSing me right after replacing in without the slightest attempt to even TRY to understand why I was on them earlier rubs me the wrong way.
Sando has been a coating parrot which is something I'd consider more anti-town than one or the other contradiction. I still want him to elaborate (in a non-parroting manner) on why he jumped my bandwagon. I doubt he has more to post about it than just worthless fluff.

[Max]

But there's not always a scummy intention behind it and I'd like to hear what exactly the "scummy" part about Jacob's contradictions is. Before that I'm not going to vote him (unless we're about to hit NL before the deadlne).

Read someone else's case on Jacob. Mine is not based on contradiction.

[CSL]

Well, almost one full day left. About 25 hours until someone takes the fall of death.

Votecount has been updated through post 592.

[Kmd4390]

DT, fair enough.

One of Star/Yellow/DT

Hey my fellow scum!

^Scum claim?

[yellowbunny]

@Sando: Happy scum day!

@CSL: What is up w/the bunny in your sig? I like it!

Okay...onto more relevant things...I'm caught up.

Regarding the two leading cases, Gheb and Jacob, imo either one would be a good lynch.

If we are talking cases alone (and by the case on Jacob, I mostly mean Chachu's big post on him), I think that the case against Gheb is stronger.

However, I think Jacob's reaction has been more incriminating than Gheb's. Jacob's defense has been very weak, and sometimes I do not feel that he is taking the questions seriously, e.g.

Not weak logical capabilities, just bent ones Razz

Also, as time progresses, his responses get worse...he seems resigned to getting lynched, and tries to attack his attackers (like the "sheep town" comment), which is anti-town. Also, as KMD points out, post 588 reads like a soft claim...that single post threw up MAJOR red flags for me.

In short, I think either Jacob or Gheb are probable scum, but Jacob's reactions seem more consistent with resigned-to-lynching scum. So...

vote: Jacob

Why did you choose to FoS rather then vote? Also, what initially made you get a scummy read on Jacob and what posts caused that read to drop to neutral?

I FOSed Gheb because I wanted to hear his responses, and also more time to think prior to casting my vote.

My inital scummy read on Jacob came from his active lurking. He stopped lurking as much, so that is what dropped it to neutral. However, in retrospect, it seems like he got more active AFTER I pointed out that he was active lurking...and that is consistent with scum wanting to appear more townie.

[Sando]

DTM, Gheb saying that two other people are better than Lacey didn't really seem to me to be a good example of being the first and most vocal on the defence of Lacey...

I think Gheb has pretty consistently misrepresented things. His 'most vocal' support of Lacey doesn't look so crash hot when you compare his 'well these 2 are better lynches' with KMDs 'Lacey is obv town'.

He's misrepresented himself on the Goro case as well. His claim that the buddying has always been a major part of his case (in fact it's pretty much all of it now) is clearly wrong considering his earlier postings.

Sorry I haven't been around, weekend was much more busy than I was expecting.

Jacob, WTF is with asking for who your partner is? This serves literally no purpose if you're town, and gives scum a lovely bit of information. Unless someone can't rationalise anyone being your partner, there's not a lot of reason for town to state this on D1.

[JacobSavage]

If you are town. Why would you want to know this? Besides the possibility of you throwing a bunch of wifom into the mix and confusing town when you

do flip scum

.

Thank God, I wont be confusing the town, when I do in fact flip town, 100% cast-iron guarantee, with no hidden scummy ness

Jacob, WTF is with asking for who your partner is? This serves literally no purpose if you're town, and gives scum a lovely bit of information. Unless someone can't rationalise anyone being your partner, there's not a lot of reason for town to state this on D1.

Personal Interest, and gives more of a help to the town

post 588 reads like a soft claim.

You actually think I would soft claim!, we may have what is called a "stupid" town.

[Gheb]

Read someone else's case on Jacob. Mine is not based on contradiction.

Will do. I just wanted to throw that out here because it looked like a lot of people have just followed chauchau's case a bit too easily.

[Gheb]

Also yellow's shameless opportunism deserves a huge

FoS

right now.