Mafia 110: Mafia in Hell, Michigan (Tied.)

[Ythan]

Considering that you were never able to support the case to begin with you're going to want to drop it for more than "...for now." And also to let me know what suspicions you've ever had against Lowell.

[molestargazer]

This is what burden of proof is, mole.

You know what I meant, whether my choice of words is in the wiki under a different definition or not.

[Ythan]

If you use the words contrary to what they actually mean and contrary to how they might pertain to the situation at hand then what do you expect?

[molestargazer]

If you use the words contrary to what they actually mean

On the contrary.
In a mafia circumstance, in the mafia wiki, yes, they mean that.
My definition was the natural one (to me, at least), often used in legal scenarios - you have to prove he's scum. He's innocent 'til then.

contrary to how they might pertain to the situation at hand

What do you mean? They have everything to do with the situation..?

[Ythan]

Then why don't you explain the connection instead of repeating your initial statement without doing such. Tell me what burden of proof has to do with this situation, aside from his lack of proof in his case which is not the issue you seem to be discussing. How does it connect to his consistent inability to address posts made against him.

[molestargazer]

I don't need to explain myself. If you actually read my post, you will see the connection.

The Burden of proof is on you

to prove he's scum.
I've not been following the case, but

give us some post numbers

and it'll make it easier for all involved.

By giving us post numbers which Lowell has not answered, you will prove your case against him that he's been avoiding answering things.

[Ythan]

And I said no. He consistently skips over a handful of posts to respond to just one. He did it very shortly before I accused him of such. Go back and scroll up yourself because I'm not going to baby you.

[Netopalis]

Konowa has been prodded.

[jbernier93]

Six pages of posts since I went V/LA, and we have basically nothing going on except Ythan being his usual "I'm 100% right" self and bickering with lowell and molestar... Oh, excluding Unsight's excellent case against Ythan. This just proves that pretty much everything he does is scummy and/or anti-town. so I'm going to go with a

unvote, vote:Ythan

... Although nacho's slot is still scummy and I would like to see a post from nacho soon.

[Ythan]

I'm the only player you attempt to paint that way during an argument and you're very selective with which arguments you choose to define as bickering, not to mention that you do so regardless of the content of such. Nothing in the post you just made indicates me as a scummy player and you just very weakly voted me jb.

[Ythan]

This just proves that pretty much everything he does is scummy and/or anti-town.

[Nachomamma8]

[quote=jbernier"]
I would like to see a post from nacho soon.
[/quote]
You know, I would post soon, but I have a bad case of procrastination and I'm still trying to plunge through this whole game. I'm also sorting through 9000 farside posts and trying to find why she's confirmed town...

So, if you want a post soon, then a.) make the game shorter, b.) show me where in the game I can find the farside knowing the town wincon thingy, or c.) ask some questions.

Kthanxbai.

PS: Hai Ythan.

[Ythan]

Hi Nacho.

[farside22]

@Nacho you will find the town win condition comment here
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 36#2141036

You will also see I called out Crypto for stated what WRP claimed was a town win condition paraphrase, which in that post I state what the actual town win con is.
Since the mod didn't have it on page one I knew crypto didn't know what it truely was.

[Ythan]

And she was the first person to call him on it.

[Unsight]

So the day is stalling, the deadline is actually getting nearer, and I haven't been putting nearly enough energy into this game as of late for which I apologize.

I think I'll get a few things off my chest that have been bothering me for a while now.

@Lowell

- You started this game with 1 out of every 3 posts being a "Hey, I'm still here post." You've only really done anything when people have basically forced it on you and somehow you don't see any of that as scummy. It is scummy and there's a name for it: Lurking.

I can't fathom how you can pretend to be a good mafia player and not see how your behavior is anti-town. Your scum hunting really only consists of OMGUS against the people attacking you followed by wishy-washy behavior when it comes to voting.

So far the few posts you've made that actually are more than "hi, I'm still here" post end with you giving the thumbs up to people we later find out are mafia. We press you for more and your response is essentially "Well I'm doing good by Lowell standards so there." That's a load of horse manure. If that's good by Lowell standards then Lowell standards suck.

@Ythan

- You have one of the scummiest and most anti-town playstyles I've ever seen in mafia. When I was reading the thread before replacing in, I had a solid scum read on you for the first 20 pages. You do everything single thing possible to keep people talking about anyone but you. You constantly remind people of the vote deadline and vote count. You blatantly tell people who to vote for and then you badger them until they do. Then you flip-flop and badger them some more.

horrordude had a very good case against Crypto on Day 1 that got overlooked because you were up in his face for the next 8 pages putting as many posts between that case and the last page as possible. I can only imagine that if you hadn't been in the game that he wouldn't have been mislynched and Crypto would have. Even on Day 3 with 2 solid mislynches, you're still pulling the same garbage pressuring everyone to consolidate votes for a deadline that was around 2 weeks away.

I've also finally got a handle on your defense. You don't have one. You respond to anything you don't like by ignoring it or dismissing it. Someone calls you on your scummy behavior like I did in 1932 and you run the hell away from it. You ignore it, you post fluff, and later you dismiss it because you don't want or can't explain it. I think you know how scummy you are and that's why you constantly press everyone--so they're too busy answering questions to take a good hard look at you.

You've also been buddying the hell out of farside22 and it bothers me to no end that someone as seemingly perceptive as farside22 hasn't called you on it. If I was farside22 I'd have told you to knock that off a long time ago yet she seems pretty happy with it. Maybe SaintKerrigan was on the right track when he called farside22 on the vig slip.


I've reread this post several times now and I was planning to vote Lowell, but I think I will be genuinely happier with an Ythan lynch today. So yeah...

vote: Ythan

(whew. venting is good for the soul and hopefully good for the town)

[Ythan]

Paragraph one, just because I talk about other people doesn't mean I'm intentionally obscuring any insight into my own play. Paragraph two, that's a shame. Paragraph three, point out a spe-ci-fic incidence of any argument you don't think I answered sufficiently. Part the fourth, farside is like 99% town. And fifth, you're not going to get an Ythan lynch. There are scum left in the game.

[Lowell]

@ythan- paragraph four: your being "99%" sure farside is town doesn't make buddying with her any more palatable. If anything, it makes it worse.

That said, paragraph two in 2365 is a bit of a stretch. I'm not sure, even in hindsight, that the crypto wagon was going to take off even without ythan's interference.

[Lowell]

@unsight- three things:

1) In large games I actually don't see the need to be present all the time. It's the reason for my larger catch-up posts (which I still think are good). I find it easier, actually, to find someone's thoughts on a single post rather than searching through the whole thread for bits and pieces. The former makes it much easier to hold people to account.

2) I don't see how my attacks are OMGUS. If some are, I assure you it's coincidence. Sometimes I think my attackers are being intentionally opportunistic, especially when I'm not as active as others, but other than that I'm not really thinking about who is voting me when I post.

3) I disagree that my play is worse than other players. I actually think I stack up pretty well in terms of volume and clarity of opinion, even withstanding the several early prod avoidance posts. And while "not being the worst" isn't exactly the highest standard of achievement, when the bulk of the case against me

is

about my lack of quality content, it's worth mentioning.

[Ythan]

@ythan- paragraph four: your being "99%" sure farside is town doesn't make buddying with her any more palatable. If anything, it makes it worse.

That said, paragraph two in 2365 is a bit of a stretch. I'm not sure, even in hindsight, that the crypto wagon was going to take off even without ythan's interference.

One, explain the scumminess of my "buddying" with farside. Two, how I was interfering with the crypto wagon and not just making a spectacle elsewhere.

Regarding your second point to Unsight, it's not OMGUS if it's unintentional, at least not if it's unintentional in the way I think you're saying.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh kay. Farside is still scum. WB whatever-his-name-is is definitely scum. Ythan is aggressive. And I have no town reads.

Kthanxbai.

@Farside: While it's a admittedly a good point, I'm not going to treat you as confirmed town; if it was THAT good of a point, you would have been dead yesterday.

[Kison]

Ythan is aggressive.

Which leads you to what conclusion, exactly?

Farside is still scum.

Why?

WB whatever-his-name-is is definitely scum.

Why? Do you think that crypto would buddy up to a player like WRP_Beater during day one after attacking him hard if they were scum together?

@farside22

: You never responded to my earlier post. What about molestargazer's response made you less suspicious of him?

This Lowell lynch seems kind of, I dunno... Lazy. Is there much more on him than lurking, which is typical of the guy? I had reasons earlier but they wound up being more or less irrelevant after he explained his WRP_Beater position, which leaves me believing he's simply an acceptable default. I think there's better gold to be found. Particularly, I find pman, jbernier and mole to be far more preferable options for today.

@mole, I know you asked about Dedicated Scribe earlier. The main point I really buy into that is up against him is his weird fence sitting towards horrorude during day one. Other points I'd brought up I think he's addressed fairly well. Who would be your picks if you had to forfeit a Dedicated Scribe lynch?

[Ythan]

If farside is scum, do try to account for the slip incident with crypto. Kison, have you only seen cases on Lowell based on lurking?

[farside22]

@farside22: You never responded to my earlier post. What about molestargazer's response made you less suspicious of him?

I'm more suspicious of others above him. He's under my uncertain category as I have seen things I agree with and I find informative but his vote on horror and reasoning was weak. His attack on Ace (who pretty much flaked) is weak too.

Just read unsight's views on ythan. Most feels like it's all about how he pushes on certain lynches.
I would like to know what ythan ignored or dismissed.
I would like to see the links to being buddied by ythan

[Konowa]

Back from V/LA. Catching up in all my games now.