Scummies 2010 Nominations

[xRECKONERx]

Aww, you guys <3

[Shanba]

Nominate TheStatusQuo for Professor Mafia

for this

Nominate Jdodge for Professor Mafia

for viewtopic.php?t=13712this[/url]

both need to continue their series on mafia theory, though.

[Max]

Is that really what people have to do to get professor mafia write essays?

[Shanba]

Is that really what people have to do to get professor mafia write essays?

Wait, what? Are you saying this shouldn't be waht professor mafia award is about? Cause if so I fundamentally disagree with you.

For a long time, I admit, the award has tended to go to people who do stuff like writing out a whole bunch of role PMs, or other similar tasks which are about the game, but not about how to play the game. Very little of what is nominated for the prof mafia award seems to be about actual mafia theory, and perhaps that's part of the reason why contributions to mafia theory are pretty limited these days.

I want people to write essays like those, because it helps to get people involved in thinking about the game, and that can only improve the quality of play on site; agree or disagree with what they say, it forces you to challenge your preconceived notions and hence gives you greater insight into the game.

Do you really think writing out a whole bunch of standardised role pms, for example, is more worthy?

[Mr. Flay]

Is that really what people have to do to get professor mafia write essays?

No; but it is *a* way to get nominated.

[Max]

Do you really think writing out a whole bunch of standardised role pms, for example, is more worthy?

No, not at all, writing PMs should be something all moderators can do. So it doesn't deserve the award.

I think that writing essays being awarded means that players who often make great points in lots of threads are overlooked. As it's a body of work award I would say that you need to do a lot more than write essays.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

Aside from the fact that making several points in a single essay post is at worst equivalent to posting poinbts in several threads, surely instigating and leading debate is more of a contribution to theory than passively responding to other people's ideas? I mean, if people did not start threads in which they espoused their theories of mafia, exactly how would the people who respond to threads actually make a contribution in the first place?

[Max]

Can most improved player be backdated more than a year so say I felt that flay had improved since 2006 could I nominate him now?

That's a really bad example (flays always been good) but you get my drift. And if so should I link to an old game and a new one?

[Panacea]

May I please nominate Oman for Moderator Awards; Best Flavor Text?

Newbie #890 is a good example, and I'm sure others will second, third, etc. me there.

[Mr. Flay]

Can most improved player be backdated more than a year so say I felt that flay had improved since 2006 could I nominate him now?

That's a really bad example (flays always been good) but you get my drift. And if so should I link to an old game and a new one?

I would say yes, even if it wasn't me. Improvement should be shown in the current year, but benchmarking can be from years previous.

[zoraster]

Nominate: Hoopla for Professor Mafia

for this http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 94#2185294

This contribution is huge. Not only does it take a long time, but it helps to stop the endless chatter without any data. Data is good. It helps us make informed comments without relying on simple anecdotal evidence that is fraught with problems.

I am grateful for the contributions made already on behalf of some essayists, but to my mind, Hoopla's contribution here is something that helps Mafia Discussion (Professor Mafia=Contribution to Mafia Discussion) in ways that essays can't possibly hope to do.

[Adel]

Nominate: Hoopla for Professor Mafia

for this http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 94#2185294

This contribution is huge. Not only does it take a long time, but it helps to stop the endless chatter without any data. Data is good. It helps us make informed comments without relying on simple anecdotal evidence that is fraught with problems.

I am grateful for the contributions made already on behalf of some essayists, but to my mind, Hoopla's contribution here is something that helps Mafia Discussion (Professor Mafia=Contribution to Mafia Discussion) in ways that essays can't possibly hope to do.

werd.

second

! Data driven mafia discussion is a huge improvement, and it takes hard work and dedication.

[Damon_Gant]

Nominate: Hoopla for Professor Mafia

for this http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 94#2185294

This contribution is huge. Not only does it take a long time, but it helps to stop the endless chatter without any data. Data is good. It helps us make informed comments without relying on simple anecdotal evidence that is fraught with problems.

I am grateful for the contributions made already on behalf of some essayists, but to my mind, Hoopla's contribution here is something that helps Mafia Discussion (Professor Mafia=Contribution to Mafia Discussion) in ways that essays can't possibly hope to do.

Thirded

. I do love essays. However, data is even better, and also objective, rather than subjective.

[Lord Gurgi]

You do this on the same page as the discussion about what merits the award?

[Shanba]

Look, I accept we're going to have differences of opinion on things like these, and I can accept that she gets nommed for collecting the data - ultimately the judges will make the decision as to what they think is most important. But I don't see what hoopla is adding as that notable.

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate it and I hope she continues to get data for analysis, but what does the data actually tell us? I mean, it's just a list of win percentages relating to different setup types. It's a great starting point for discussion about balance, and I hope people take up that opportunity (I'm going to make some comments in a bit). But this kind of thing has been done before: there are countless people who have run stats on newbie games win percentages, and I know that I myself have done something like this before, and a google search reveals that you have too, Adel. What makes this particularly noteworthy?

(As to why I think the things I nominated to are particularly noteworthy, as someone is inevitably going to throw this in my face: I think that both JD and shea are raising topics that aren't often discussed yet have relevance to the way that people play mafia. JD's is more self serving and shea's is more notable imo, but I'm interested in seeing what JD adds in the continuation of his series.)

This is intended to spark debate btw. If you disagree, please please please say why and don't just blow me off. Adel, I'm looking at you here.

[Panacea]

Oh, one more thing!

May I nominate RayFrost for Funniest Player?

Thank you!

[zoraster]

Look, I accept we're going to have differences of opinion on things like these, and I can accept that she gets nommed for collecting the data - ultimately the judges will make the decision as to what they think is most important. But I don't see what hoopla is adding as that notable.

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate it and I hope she continues to get data for analysis, but what does the data actually tell us? I mean, it's just a list of win percentages relating to different setup types. It's a great starting point for discussion about balance, and I hope people take up that opportunity (I'm going to make some comments in a bit). But this kind of thing has been done before: there are countless people who have run stats on newbie games win percentages, and I know that I myself have done something like this before, and a google search reveals that you have too, Adel. What makes this particularly noteworthy?

(As to why I think the things I nominated to are particularly noteworthy, as someone is inevitably going to throw this in my face: I think that both JD and shea are raising topics that aren't often discussed yet have relevance to the way that people play mafia. JD's is more self serving and shea's is more notable imo, but I'm interested in seeing what JD adds in the continuation of his series.)

This is intended to spark debate btw. If you disagree, please please please say why and don't just blow me off. Adel, I'm looking at you here.

I certainly don't want to minimize the contribution of others writing essays and the like. But I think you're wrong to dismiss the contribution of data.

I think comparing Hoopla's data to newbie data is useful, but newbie data is more easily collectible as there's a limit to the number of setups possible and each gets reported and cataloged together, making compiling the data relatively simple if a little mind-numbing. Hoopla's, on the other hand, not only shows whether town or scum won but the actual setup. Having tried to do this on a limited number of games before, it is really tough stuff to do because mods aren't always great about including what the setup was on the front page. That can lead to a lot of hunting for information.

Obviously the data does not show anything in and of itself. But it gives the opportunity for analysis that did not exist before. It helps fight bad conventional wisdom. It helps people more rationally think about the balance of the games they're creating. 63% win rate for scum is HUGE. In the NFL, the owners were convinced to change playoff rules because the winner of the coin toss had gotten SUCH an advantage in recent years... and that was something like 59%.

[Ythan]

Interesting data dump. But does one become a professor by collecting data? I submit that one does not.

[Shanba]

Look, I accept we're going to have differences of opinion on things like these, and I can accept that she gets nommed for collecting the data - ultimately the judges will make the decision as to what they think is most important. But I don't see what hoopla is adding as that notable.

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate it and I hope she continues to get data for analysis, but what does the data actually tell us? I mean, it's just a list of win percentages relating to different setup types. It's a great starting point for discussion about balance, and I hope people take up that opportunity (I'm going to make some comments in a bit). But this kind of thing has been done before: there are countless people who have run stats on newbie games win percentages, and I know that I myself have done something like this before, and a google search reveals that you have too, Adel. What makes this particularly noteworthy?

(As to why I think the things I nominated to are particularly noteworthy, as someone is inevitably going to throw this in my face: I think that both JD and shea are raising topics that aren't often discussed yet have relevance to the way that people play mafia. JD's is more self serving and shea's is more notable imo, but I'm interested in seeing what JD adds in the continuation of his series.)

This is intended to spark debate btw. If you disagree, please please please say why and don't just blow me off. Adel, I'm looking at you here.

I certainly don't want to minimize the contribution of others writing essays and the like. But I think you're wrong to dismiss the contribution of data.

I think comparing Hoopla's data to newbie data is useful, but newbie data is more easily collectible as there's a limit to the number of setups possible and each gets reported and cataloged together, making compiling the data relatively simple if a little mind-numbing. Hoopla's, on the other hand, not only shows whether town or scum won but the actual setup. Having tried to do this on a limited number of games before, it is really tough stuff to do because mods aren't always great about including what the setup was on the front page. That can lead to a lot of hunting for information.

Obviously the data does not show anything in and of itself. But it gives the opportunity for analysis that did not exist before. It helps fight bad conventional wisdom. It helps people more rationally think about the balance of the games they're creating. 63% win rate for scum is HUGE. In the NFL, the owners were convinced to change playoff rules because the winner of the coin toss had gotten SUCH an advantage in recent years... and that was something like 59%.

I know all about how mind numbingly dull collecting data is, having collected data of my own for various reasons including updating the wiki on the results and setups of newbie games and collecting data for the thread I linked above, and I really, really respect the work hoopla has done here. However, in terms of what is a noteworthy contribution to mafia theory, I'm not sure entirely how relevant hoopla's post actually is.

63% winrate is not what the winrate actually was for scum; adding the data for all the setups together gave me a 56% scum winrate which I'm almost certain is not statistically significant (though it being midnight, I'm not about to try and run any kind of statistics on it - not that I'm actually very good at statistics anyway.) The data that most games tend to favour scum has been around for a long time anyway, tbqh.

[Ythan]

I would say that margin of error in analysis of win rates inherent in setups are likely to have

at least

a margin of error of 3% with talent taken into account.

[zoraster]

sorry, i wasn't clear. I meant in 9:3 setups which are often thought of as the default setup for a 12 person game, the scum win rate is 62% which is huge.

And the fact that other setups lead to lower scum win rates (some close to a 50/50 split) gives some hope for balance.

[Adel]

Look, I accept we're going to have differences of opinion on things like these, and I can accept that she gets nommed for collecting the data - ultimately the judges will make the decision as to what they think is most important. But I don't see what hoopla is adding as that notable.

Don't get me wrong, I really appreciate it and I hope she continues to get data for analysis, but what does the data actually tell us? I mean, it's just a list of win percentages relating to different setup types. It's a great starting point for discussion about balance, and I hope people take up that opportunity (I'm going to make some comments in a bit). But this kind of thing has been done before: there are countless people who have run stats on newbie games win percentages, and I know that I myself have done something like this before, and a google search reveals that you have too, Adel. What makes this particularly noteworthy?

(As to why I think the things I nominated to are particularly noteworthy, as someone is inevitably going to throw this in my face: I think that both JD and shea are raising topics that aren't often discussed yet have relevance to the way that people play mafia. JD's is more self serving and shea's is more notable imo, but I'm interested in seeing what JD adds in the continuation of his series.)

This is intended to spark debate btw. If you disagree, please please please say why and don't just blow me off. Adel, I'm looking at you here.

Her methodology:
1. Collect data (her sample size was 336, which is huge compared to the work you and I have done before)
2. Analyse it.
3. Write essay incorporating her experience with the results of her analysis of the data. See: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 12#2187212

everyone else typically just jumps to 3, without their analysis being based upon data.

[CSL]

Nominate animorpherv1 and spyrex as Best Mafia catchers in SWN II: The Curse of the Nekomata

Nailed the Greek Mafia AND the serial killer in one day. Ani was the vig.

Nominate the award: "Best Scum Player" under Body of Work (Player Award)

Nominate Maemuki for "Best Scum Player" of the American Mafia in SWN II Curse of the Nekomata

Lived for days without being caught. Post-restricted Miller claimed. If correct traget was picked during the night, we would've won.


^Read the game. I DARE you to.

[Kairyuu]

Nominate animorpherv1 and spyrex as Best Mafia catchers in SWN II: The Curse of the Nekomata

Nailed the Greek Mafia AND the serial killer in one day. Ani was the vig.

Nominate the award: "Best Scum Player" under Body of Work (Player Award)

Nominate Maemuki for "Best Scum Player" of the American Mafia in SWN II Curse of the Nekomata

Lived for days without being caught. Post-restricted Miller claimed. If correct traget was picked during the night, we would've won.


^Read the game. I DARE you to.

In the absence of the Best Performance in a losing cause (which Mae would be perfect for in this case), I

second all of the above

[animorpherv1]

nominate UncertainKitten for Best Third Party in SWN II

YAY! I WON BY CLAIMING THIRD PARTY! TWICE!