Mini 928 - Bloodlust Mafia Remix - Over!

[julienvonwolfe]

I responded to your other point about Cyanide, and your point about my lurking is shit because lurking isn't a scumtell (I thought we were past newbie games).

Your point about my vote being on confirmed townies is your best one but even then it's not good as I'm fairly sure that it's not uncommon for one townie to vote for two other townies during day one. It's just coincidence here that both turned out to be innocent despite their play.

[Mr.Sandman]

I think Llama is sk and likeliest scum are JVW and concerned and I'm edging towards dramonic purely on the basis that almightybob and havingfitz seem more town to me. On my phone at the moment. I'll expand on this in due course

[havingfitz]

I responded to your other point about Cyanide, and your point about my lurking is shit because lurking isn't a scumtell (I thought we were past newbie games).

I’ll drop the Cyanide point...it was just the intial read I had when I read those parts of your ISO. As for lurking...I never actually accused you of lurking, I just pointed out that you had a 12 day absence without reason. But since you brought lurking up....is it a scumtell when it’s active lurking? You seem to have had plenty of opportunities in this game to continue making posts while you were away from this one. Is that point is shit?

Your point about my vote being on confirmed townies is your best one but even then it's not good as I'm fairly sure that it's not uncommon for one townie to vote for two other townies during day one. It's just coincidence here that both turned out to be innocent despite their play.

I’m pretty sure it’s not uncommon for scum to vote townies on D1 as well. My point was...on several D1 votecounts that in hindsight were on townies...you were on them. And with 3 scum (4 counting the SK) still in the game, I can not imagine that a wagon on town with 2 or more players does not contain scum...and knowing who on the wagon is town (from their flops and claims) and who I think is more likely to be town...leaves you. I could be wrong but the things that strike me as scummy have been pointing me your way.

[Mr.Sandman]

Here are my reasonings.

Llama:
Cyanide's play was awful, anti-town even when looked at in the best of lights. I don't think we should forget that. Llama has contributed more worthily but I think he has been misrepping, not only myself, but also others, such as Post 504, where he tries to cast almightybob in a negative light, with a feeble reason. I get the impression that llama would be happy for anyone to get lynched but him.

Julienvonwolfe:
Day 1 play was characterised by votes on players which has since been confirmed as town:
- random vote on CS
- the 4th vote in quick succession on the fifi bandwagon (before backing down on the basis that he thought that fifi was just being a stubborn townie)
- vote on Haylen (for being more scummy than fifi, even though he had said he thought fifi was just a scummy townie)
- goes back to vote on fifi (for the self voting reason, even though he thought fifi was just being stubborn town, and hypocrisy regarding meta?)
Wasn't active on Day 2
- day 3 goes back to suave and focuses on him and fifi for much of the day, despite the claims
- no real mention or accusations against anyone else – draws attention to concerned once but doesn't follow it through or state his own feelings and why he is drawing attention to it

In other words, deaths and the massclaim have proven that jvw's attentions have been focussed on town players the whole game. Has barely even commented on anyone else.

JVW, who's scum?

Concerned:
voted fifi and seemed to think that jvw came out of that interchange looking townish. Switches to vote cyanide (who I think is sk), despite not seeming to think that fifi was any less scummy but attention was starting to shift away from fifi. Still keeps fifi in his sights though and jumps back to fifi when 'the cyanide wagon isn't happening'. Following fifi's claim, list of scummiest players is Cyanide, Suave, Haylen, BV310, 3 of which are town. Today – leaning town with almightybob, jvw and fitz.

Concerned's main target, other than the failed bandwagoning of day 1, has been cyanide/llama, who I think is anti-town.

Having read through day 1 again, I would like to revise my opinion on who the likely third scum partner is from dramonica. I don't have much to say on confidanon and his replacements as there has been a distinct lack of activity, but he distanced himself from concerned with votes and posts in day 1, and given my tendency to think concerned is scum, this sits well with me.

I'm considering almightybob but all I have on this are links I see with the two aforementioned players. Concerned said he had a town read on almightybob. Almightybob says he thinks jvw and concerned are pro-town.

Almightybob – One thing I noticed was in situations such as in post 112 – supports the case against fifi but decides against voting. Don't see why he didn't. Supports the case against cyanide as well and backs this up with a vote. Day 1, would vote to lynch – cyanide, fifi, bv and suave. Switches between cyanide, bv and fifi, settling on bv.
Day 2 – voted darkstrike, saying it would take a lot to change his mind
Day 3 – lists players he thinks are pro-town as jvw, concerned and fitz

I've listed them in order of how certain I am that the player is anti-town.

However, one thing I'm wary of and I think we should remember is the fact that those who were less active actually come out looking the better off for being less active, because they don't come up on the vote counts for the dead and confirmed townies who in all honesty were playing terribly and that this is just incidental.

[LlamaFluff]

Llama:
Cyanide's play was awful, anti-town even when looked at in the best of lights. I don't think we should forget that. Llama has contributed more worthily but I think he has been misrepping, not only myself, but also others, such as Post 504, where he tries to cast almightybob in a negative light, with a feeble reason. I get the impression that llama would be happy for anyone to get lynched but him.

You need to work on reading me a bit hun.

I want you lynched far an away then anyone else. JVN is acceptable, but quite a bit inferior. No one else I really want to lynch, I have my suspicions of who is more likely to be town and scum then others, but at the same time really dont want outside suspects lynched.

Also how are you coming to me SK conclusion over me mafia? Are you mafia SK hunting?

[Mr.Sandman]

If it's just me you want lynched, why just me? You say you're pretty convinced on jvw as well but now he's quite a bit inferior, and yet you haven't expanded on your reasons when prompted (post 528)

I think you're SK because I actually happen to agree with your views on two I think are mafia - jvw and concerned. However, the way cyanide was playing was nothing but anti-town, and your whole case against me was built on using things out of context to cast me in a bad light. This, added to the fact that I can't seem to see any links between you and any of the other players - no slight defenses of you and no real defenses of anyone from you.

[LlamaFluff]

If it's just me you want lynched, why just me? You say you're pretty convinced on jvw as well but now he's quite a bit inferior, and yet you haven't expanded on your reasons when prompted (post 528)

But JVN isnt my top pick for a lynch, pushing his wagon would distract from me pushing you. Im not going to do that. If it came to JNV-other at deadline my vote would be showing up there though. I just dont want to lynch him over you.

I think you're SK because I actually happen to agree with your views on two I think are mafia - jvw and concerned. However, the way cyanide was playing was nothing but anti-town, and your whole case against me was built on using things out of context to cast me in a bad light. This, added to the fact that I can't seem to see any links between you and any of the other players - no slight defenses of you and no real defenses of anyone from you.

So OMGUS and what my predicessor has done makes you think im SK, but at the same time you are trying to get behind my secondary suspect wagons?

Lets try this - If you had option of lynching mafia or SK, which would you lynch? (This is actually kind of interesting theory)

[Mr.Sandman]

Yes, what your predecessor has done. Just because you've come doesn't change your role or the way he played it.

No, not OMGUS, more you just made a whole lot of stuff up to try and start a wagon, which is a big scum tell.

As for your question, in this game at this stage, if I had the same degree of certainty on who I thought was who, I would probably prefer mafia. However, we can't afford to leave a SK too long because if we start losing 2 at night it's going to be nigh on impossible soon enough

[LlamaFluff]

No, I was summarising his actions that far, as I did with all the others in that post...

So what WAS the suave case? You were voting him for a long time and I never found a significant case in any of your posts. Also why didnt you open D3 with a Suave vote?

"It was day one, im not useful day one". Also... if you are only analysing worthiness, then you arent giving any worthy arguements of your own, so by your own logic you are scum. Or I could just argue IIOA. Or I could argue that if everyone took this stance we would never lynch.

I disagree with you on the first point – analysing worthiness, seeing what motives might be behind arguments, who seems to be plucking things out of thin air as reasons to vote, who is misrepping things in my opinion. In other words, using all the techniques which are helpful to find scum.
Second point, I agree with you on, it wouldn't work if everyone did it. But everyone doesn't do it, therefore it allows me to.

By only analysing worthiness, you are avoiding scumhunting on anything but how good other players cases look. Experienced scum can make very convincing cases, just go look at anyone who has ever been nominated for a scummy and you will find some. Also there are players who are just REALLY bad at making cases, no matter what their alignment. This is a cop-out strategy for scum hunting since it is critiquing others scum hunting instead of actually doing it yourself.

Also if everyone did it means it wouldnt work, it probably means its a bad idea.

VERY nice attempt to blame the D2 lynch on DS self-hammering when you added your vote after though.

Yes, I don't get your point. Everyone in the game can see that the DS lynch happened because DS self-hammered, not because of anything I did. I add my vote after in ignorance to the voting situation, I admit that.

You were complaining about the speed of D2, despite the fact that if DS wasnt being a massive douche, you would of ended it just as fast. The lynch would of happened because of something you did. This attitude you are taking is making it sound like you are in no way to blame for the DS lynch, when you voted him post hammer thinking it was pre-hammer.

All you suspicions were popular suspicions. You never tried to do something that was unpopular.

Fair enough. Suave stood out most for me, so I stood by Suave.

Cool then. Point stands of you only getting on easy wagons.

Why is it scummy? I absolutely want you lynched today and think I will get it done. If I was unlucky enough to get a vig role you wouldnt even be here right now.

Because you wanted me up there before I got a chance to defend myself. It looks like you wanted to encourage momentum so that I'd be an easier target for a hammer. What benefit did you see in me defending myself at l-1 as opposed to having one vote on me?

More votes is more information and for the most part, better reads on players. When things happen fast, these tells on others and the person under pressure are even more predominant due to people making more instinctual moves instead of methodical ones.

~Side note

DO NOT RESPOND IN BOLD. It makes it very difficult for me to re-respond

~~Double side note

I have big midterms in difficult classes tuesday and thursday of next week. Will post very little during that time.

[Mr.Sandman]

1. The Suave case was his unhelpfulness and active-lurking which seemed scummy. It stayed on him till the end of the day because I wasn't on near the end of the day or else I probably would've changed to make my vote count.

Why should I have opened day 3 by voting for him? There had been a nightkill and a lynch in between. Time to reassess on the basis of new information.

2. I take your point even if I don't agree with it all. I think that kind of analysis has its merits and that it can play a useful role in determining alignments and helping to build cases.

3. I thought the speed was ridiculous and it caught me by surprise. You say yourself, I voted him post hammer thinking it was pre hammer. I wouldn't have voted him if I'd known I was going to hammer

4. No, suave seemed scummiest, so I voted for suave. Has nothing to do with it being an easy wagon. It's to do with who you think is scummiest.

5. I agree that instinctual moves are probably more revealing. However, the fact you want to bring that out at l-1 is wrong, given that it opens me up to be quick hammered more easily

[MrSuave]

the night kills don't add up... scum/SK was blocked each night. that or someone didn't kill. which makes no sense.

[LlamaFluff]

Why should I have opened day 3 by voting for him? There had been a nightkill and a lynch in between. Time to reassess on the basis of new information.

You havent ever really made a case on anyone else being scummy, expect maybe me for "stuff my predicessor did". You never found suave scummy D3 more likely because you havent done anything today. Just about every post you have made D3 has been defending against me and saying my case against you is bad (hint - no one ever thinks the case against them is good)

2. I take your point even if I don't agree with it all. I think that kind of analysis has its merits and that it can play a useful role in determining alignments and helping to build cases.

So you are going to scumhunt then? Im not saying analysis is worthless, but scumhunting is just as, if not more important.

3. I thought the speed was ridiculous and it caught me by surprise. You say yourself, I voted him post hammer thinking it was pre hammer. I wouldn't have voted him if I'd known I was going to hammer

Yes. I get that. What I keep saying is that you earlier said

No hard line stances because it was Day 1 and I find it easier to analyse the worthiness of other peoples arguments.

Perhaps I would've had more of a chance on Day 2 if darkstrike hadn't self-hammered so early on

.

The bolded sounds like you are completely pawning off blame of the wagon to DS. We know he hammered, you still voted after regardless. If for whatever reason a vote didnt format right your vote would of lynched him. Do you get what I am saying here or do I need to find a new approach?

4. No, suave seemed scummiest, so I voted for suave. Has nothing to do with it being an easy wagon. It's to do with who you think is scummiest.

You can try to agrue that but there was little if any instances of you showing that you really wanted him lynched. Also you did pile on the DS wagon, lets not forget that one already. And yes, you were on the wagon.

5. I agree that instinctual moves are probably more revealing. However, the fact you want to bring that out at l-1 is wrong, given that it opens me up to be quick hammered more easily

If you are quicklynched as scum, we probably have our SK. If you are quicklynched as town, SK should kill whoever hammered you. (hint SK should scumhunt tonight, especially if we mislynch)

[havingfitz]

the night kills don't add up... scum/SK was blocked each night. that or someone didn't kill. which makes no sense.

Suave...this topic has been discussed fairly extensively. Your comment above brings absolutely nothing to the game. Since we are considering you confirmed town now...can you perhaps assist the town a bit and provide some content of value? Show us some scum hunting? Be fockin' useful and provide more than one-liners that aren't (fockin' useful that is).

Also...we need more Concerned. Dramonic has not really provided anything yet so he is keeping pace with his predecessors. AMB...any thoughts on current events?

@At all - Would it be useful if every gave their thoughts on who they suspect (as some of us have done)?

[dramonic]

My main two are fitz and Sandman, if that interests you

[havingfitz]

My main two are fitz and Sandman, if that interests you

Can't argue with that (other than the fact you provide no rationale). Thanks!

[Nachomamma8]

Fifi is being replaced by Netopalis, so his vote has been reset. Deadline extension of one week granted; thus, deadline falls on April 5th, same time.

Day 3 Votecount:

Mr.Sandman (1): LlamaFluff
julienwolfe (1): havingfitz

Not Voting (6): Mr.Sandman, Concerned, dramonic, almightybob, julienvonwolfe, Netopalis

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

[Netopalis]

Hey, folks, looking forward to meeting you all! I probably won't be able to post anything of substance until Sunday, and after my last /replace in, I refuse to post reads midway through catching up.

[LlamaFluff]

So deadline is coming up, people should start voting so stuff actually happens.

[havingfitz]

So deadline is coming up, people should start voting so stuff actually happens.

Deadline extension of one week granted; thus, deadline falls on April 5th, same time.

Deadline extension of one week granted; thus, deadline falls on April 5th, same time.

Day 3 Votecount:

Mr.Sandman (1): LlamaFluff
Mr.Suave (1): almightybob,
julienwolfe (1): havingfitz

Not Voting (6): Mr.Sandman, Concerned, TehWuicah, almightybob, julienvonwolfe, Netopalis

I thought AMB unvoted and Tehwuicah was replaced. And did someone ask for an extension?

[LlamaFluff]

@fitz - Im guessing extension came from having a replacement. I normally reset close deadlines to 5-7 days from when a replacement joined when I mod. TW=dram, so thats just a VC error

Also you should vote.

@Neto - You need to claim your targets to see if we have any more confirmed town.

[Netopalis]

Llama: I've been told that I was roleblocked every night.

[havingfitz]

@fitz - Im guessing extension came from having a replacement. I normally reset close deadlines to 5-7 days from when a replacement joined when I mod. TW=dram, so thats just a VC error

Also you should vote.

In addition to the vote I already made?

[LlamaFluff]

Well if you ARE a double voter it would be a good time to claim it... more likely though is that I forgot you were actually voting.

[havingfitz]

Well if you ARE a double voter it would be a good time to claim it... more likely though is that I forgot you were actually voting.

I agree...the second option is more likely.

[Nachomamma8]

And did someone ask for an extension?

Nope. The replacement won't be able to post anything until Sunday (which is when the deadline ended), and I hate it when scum NK people just replacing in. So I gave an extension, and gave him a chance to speak.