Mafia 112: Ridiculous Drama! (Game Over, town win!)

[Parama]

*waits for even one other player to read the implication the way you did*

I honestly don't expect anyone to. You wouldn't believe the crazy stuff I come up with sometimes that ends up right - in another game I called out someone as being scum, nobody believed me, wagon started on me, I died or something flipped town, then when the player I called out died he was scum.
But that's not a defense. It's just saying that I trust myself enough that I don't have to listen to what other players say most of the time

[farside22]

Shadow Dancer: Why did you unvote and only fos blue?
Fate: I don't see what Param did is a misrep based on is response. I could see myself reading it that way. Lets as the grammar police. Oh SIR.

MehPlusRawr - you really think based on blue's comment and things I said prior to the game makes me scum with SIR? Why?

[Leafsnail]

Oh, goddamnit. Thread explodes while I'm away. Sorry for the messy, quote filled post.

Do this happen often with Sir Cyanide, that lots of people want him lynched right from the start? If not it might be a faked argumentation of the scums. I don't really think so, but just have to check with the more experienced here.

I actually replaced into the game he seems to be hated for. All I can say is he was pretty lucky to be replaced by a better player.

5-day V/LA. I'm not having any of that.

I really don't see what your problem with a temporary absence is. Real life > mafia, right?

Leafsnail tomorrow, we agreed to policy lynch SIR CYANIDE D1 in the sign-ups thread and there's good reason to (if you're reading this thread at all should be obvious.)

...What?

I reread that twice trying to think of a way in which it could be from a pro-town perspective, but failed miserably.

Vote Parama

.

Leafsnail is probably scum, so he can get vigged tonight if we have one of those (it's likely).

Ok. So you want the little to no information gained by a policy lynch over the much greater amount of information gained by the lynch of a mafia member? I see.

It's pretty obvious what you're doing. You see a very easy lynch for today (SIR CYANIDE) and another potentially easy lynch tomorrow (me). You want both. Therefore you're going to hop on the one with the bigger bandwagon for now and try to push a bandwagon on the other tomorrow.

I'm sure there's scum on the wagon regardless of whether CYANIDE is maf or town.

In other words, it will tell us nothing regardless of SC's flip.

[quote="parama"[Both die either way? I dunno. If you REALLY want to wait until night to get rid of him, I'd be willing to abandon the wagon for my Leafsnail case. Still don't see why the order matters... the only thing that could possibly change both dying in my scenario is a mafia doctor being on Leafsnail. But that requires for a maf doc to be in the game, and I'm not sure how common that is.[/quote]
You get less info from a vig, and a vig is blockable/ protectable from/ redirectable/ whatever, while a lynch isn't. It also isn't guarenteed that there's a vig in the game, while it IS guarenteed we have a lynch.

Has he done an ounce of scumhunting yet?

Y'know what? I think he's done some, yes. And he hasn't been pushing a lynch on someone whose alignment he doesn't know while calling someone else scum.

@Blue 177 - You apologise several times for your behaviour, to the extent that it makes me feel slightly nauseous. You also write this:

I don't want to make too many enemies early on but I actually do strongly think that Cyanide and Farside are likely to be mafia together. Here's my admittedly rather poor reasoning:

What the heck. How does this apply any pressure or provide any info? It's just a lame finger point from a long, long way away. And then, after this lame reason, you restate that your vote on CYANIDE is a policy lynch for past play, and not on farside for being scummy (although you don't state this in strong terms at all - probably because you want to avoid attention from farside).

It's more of a potential scumlink at the moment, but if CYANIDE is scum (which I have no clue on either way) then it's something to look at tomorrow.

. What the hell is this, just what the hell. If you think you see a connection, at least try to push the players involved. This is just fluff.

If I am seriously missing something here on the amount of information we gain from a lynch over a vig kill then please feel free to point it out and I will gladly wait for a vigshot.

Noone hammers in the event of a vigkill. Noone puts the player at L-1 to claim. Noone disbelieves or believes the player's claim. Noone bandwagons, switches bandwagons or charges in at the last moment for a bus. All we get is that player dead, and no other info.

Okay the grammar here fails but I get the logic here now. Glad someone answered it. I see why lynching scum gets us more info than vigging them.

"Oh, hey, looks like I can't push this policy lynch today without looking scummy. Nevermind, he'll probably get lynched without my help anyway."
Yeah, parama, it's pretty obvious you're only changing due to pressure from other players.

The case I offered earlier. Considering Leafsnail hasn't posted since before the second quote there's nothing to add at this point.

And to top it all off, I HAVE posted since then, answering it. Excellent case there.

Anyway, there's been virtually no discussion about some of the players like Chronopie, Julano, Shadow Dancer and Jag Johan. It's sad that we're the ones contributing the most and receiving the most suspicion, in my opinion, whilst those doing nothing slip under the radar.

This is pretty massive deflection.

Blue, I liked your argument there. Since it looks like we're lynching Cyanide due to the way he's acting, we can get him lynched for that reason, and if you're right, we'll also have killed a mafia member and have a lead on another mafia member.

I don't like this post. He hasn't said he thinks SC is scum, so there's no "if he's right" about it. And you haven't bothered testing the connection yourself at all.

Leafsnail (Singling out Julano for no reason. More suspicion on him if Julano is scum. Also, saying "Not sure how helpful putting 4 random votes on the same guy is", looks like he's trying to take votes off Cyanide. Even more suspicion on him if Cyanide is scum.)

I actually laughed out loud after reading this. I am scum for singling out someone for no reason. In other words... a

random vote

during the

random vote stage

.

Cyanide (For the reasons I posted earlier, as a policy lynch, and as a test- if he comes up mafia, we've got a good chance of finding another mafia)

But you said earlier in your post "most likely to be mafia" not "people I'd like to get rid of". What have you seen that makes him more likely mafia?

Cyanide
If he's scum: Julano.
If he's town: Shrinehme
Julano
If he's scum: Leafsnail
If he's town: Shrinehme
Shrinehme
If he's scum: Any of the other people I'm suspicious of.
If he's town: Jacobsavage
Leafsnail
If he's scum: Farside
If he's town: Farside
Farside
If she's scum: Jacob
If she's town: Eh, still Jacob
Jacob
If he's scum: No idea, frankly. Anybody else.
If he's town: Same as above.

This looks like the biggest mindless chainlynching plan in mafia history. Please provide proper reasons for your suspicions.

So first you say that you agree Leafsnail is scum and now you don't?

No, he was saying that, from your perspective, you were asking for a vig on someone you were apparently CONVINCED was scum and a policylynch.

Or were you just making an assumption before because you knew Leaf was scum and now you're trying to defend him?
Or are you just forgetting your reads?
Or you worded that first quote terribly which makes it look like you're saying something you aren't?

Or are you asking random, leading, reaching questions that do not provide any actual information?

That's the implication IMO - you agree with me when I'm saying Leafsnail is scum. Unless you failed at wording, in which case you should've said:

There's no "fail" at wording. Hypothetical reasoning is a pretty basic tool in an argument.

Summary of scumreads:
Parama
Blue
Mehplusrawr

[MehPlusRawr]

At Leafsnail's last post- Okay, the people you're calling scum are....

Parama- He looks rather pro-town. He thinks you're scum and you voted for him apparently just because he thinks you're scum. He also thinks we should lynch Cyanide.
Blue- Said that Cyanide and Farside were scum.
Me- Said that he, Cyanide, and other people were scum.

Each of the people you address are regarding Cyanide. You address Cyanide himself once, about V/LA, but it doesn't have any impact on your scumreads, which admittedly makes sense. It looks like you're trying to convey "I'm not DEFINITELY saying that he's town, so I'm including him in my post-that-accuses-people-of-being-scum but not calling him scum."

The one thing the three people you're calling scum have in common? We think it's a good idea to lynch Cyanide.

Let's assume that Cyanide is scum for a second.

He's been accused by a lot of people, some of the votes were random. He got more piled on him for rudeness. He's scum, and his buddies are getting worried. Now, let's assume that Leafsnail is scum. He comes in, accuses all the most recent people who votes for Cyanide of being scum, and nothing else.

Sound a bit scummy to you? Sounds scummy to me!

Unvote, vote Leafsnail

[SpyreX]

There's something to be said for that if Cyanide were to flip scum (doubly so a scum PR).

But, when it reads as "If Cynaide is scum, leaf is scum" the vote on leaf doesn't make sense.

[MehPlusRawr]

I have no idea why I just voted for Leafsnail. That was a mistake =P.

Unvote (again), vote SIR CYANIDE (again)

[Leafsnail]

Wow, just wow. You COMPLETELY ignore my case and instead bring together and arbitary connection based on an assumption with no backing. Oh wait, and you randomly defend parama with no backing at all for looking "pro-town". This is completely stupid.

It's not a huge surprise that you three have the desire to lynch SIR CYANIDE in common. Wanting to jump on an easy policy lynch is something scum would do. And if you can assume random person x is scum and then lynch anyone who's attacked the attackers of that person, why not "let's assume parama is scum, so MPR is scum for defending him"?

Now, what does your case hinge on again? Oh yes, SIR CYANIDE being scum. Do you think he's scum? Nope! Are you going to try and find out if he is? Nope! Just go ahead and OMGUS your problems away.

[Leafsnail]

And I missed the last two posts in that, but I don't buy it. How can you accidentally unvote and vote someone you don't want to? You didn't. SpyreX's comment just made you realise how bad what you just did was.

[Fate]

MehPlusRawr, when I'm tunneling someone I don't appreciate you coming and claiming scum.

But I don't mind it either.

HoS: MPR

[SpyreX]

While not thrilled I'm missing the motive behind that mistake?

Covering for Cyanide?

[Parama]

There's something to be said for that if Cyanide were to flip scum (doubly so a scum PR).

But, when it reads as "If Cynaide is scum, leaf is scum" the vote on leaf doesn't make sense.

Hey look, another "FoS: scumbuddy, vote: random townie" type thing.
Oh. Except Leafsnail is scum. Hmm...
I agree, Meh's vote doesn't make sense, because it's assuming CYANIDE is also scum - if CYANIDE is scum Leafsnail is scum by association. So logically the vote should be on CYANIDE.
He does change it right after being called out... blows it off as "Oops I voted the wrong person!" Did you happen to mispell "SIR CYANIDE" as "Leafsnail"? Because those aren't very similar IMO.
Meh's defense of me is bothersome. If he's scum I'll get lynched by association. Though I am inclined to believe scum wouldn't be that obvious, well, you never know...
Leafsnail's vote is a heavily disguised OMGUS, if you didn't catch it.
It's amusing that the vote comes after point #1 and you continue to make several points after it.
1). Would I really be that obvious if I was scum? WIFOM, I know. Okay, real response - that doesn't justify the vote.
2). Okay, so I didn't understand the difference in information we could have received. Go ahead and lynch me for a misunderstanding.
Also, you're an easy lynch because you're scum.
3). Yes I realize this now. Oh geez, I didn't really get it at first, I get it now, can we move on?
4). Hello CYANIDE defense!
5). How the hell is it fluff? I'm pointing out potential scumlinks for future reference, which I WILL reference when we have a scumflip (probably you and your links to CYANIDE you keep subtly making)
6). Yes I get it. It's theory at this point. You're repeating the same point over and over again.
7). Nope. I honestly didn't understand why the vig would be better used on the anti-town and not the scum, and now I realize it due to it being explained by the person I didn't ask the question to originally. You're just whining because I switched to you.
8). ...oops, you're right .-. Man I'm not looking hard enough am I?
9). This is not what the wording implied.
10). I'm trying to outguess his motives. 2 of the 3 motives are scummy and one is null. I don't see any others though.
11). I guess I just read differently than everybody else then. I notice things when other people don't.

Notice how most of his points are against me, even ones that aren't even relevant to my case on him at all. Trying to find as many reasons to vote so it doesn't look like the obvious OMGUS that it is. Vote definitely stays.

[Fate]

While not thrilled I'm missing the motive behind that mistake?

Covering for Cyanide?

I thought it was covering for Parama. Combined with the calling Parama pro-town, he votes Leafsnail with his buddy. You call him out on how that doesn't make sense logically, he says "whoops" and goes back to voting who he is "supposed" to be voting: SC.

[MehPlusRawr]

Eh, I made a mistake by being absentminded. I was thinking of Leafsnail at the time. As for my defending Parama- I had intended to write a sentence or so showing that each of the people there looked more likely to be town than scum, but I couldn't really think of anything to write for Blue so I skipped it, forgetting to erase the bit about Parama so it would be all nice, neat, and in a similar format.

Does anyone wanna listen to the points I made? >_>

[Leafsnail]

@234 - it was originally a scumslip, but he realised how horrible it looked after you questioned it.

@235 - huh, this is a mess.
The first part is YET MORE FRIGGIN CHAINLYNCH ATTEMPTS and massive WIFOM to add to it. If I go through your points:
1. Massive WIFOM. That and there's no reason for town to be that obvious either.
2. It's not exactly rocket science. And you were EXTREMELY insistent that SC be the lynch for today and me the NK. Why?
3. Sure.
4. I guess I am, yes. Because he looks town and you look like scum trying to get an easy lynch. If you mean in terms of policy lynching, I feel that if SC really becomes unplayable we can just get a force replace on him.
5. But you could at least try to push the players involved. If you don't, then making that statement today does nothing other than signal intent.
6. When you keep making the same mistake again and again, yes, that happens.
7. Yeah, nothing to do with your massive scumminess or bowing down under pressure to vote for me. Nothing to do with your crap case either.
8. I guess not. I suppose that means you've got absolutely nothing on me, then?
9. No, it doesn't. I can sortof see how you might make that mistake reading it quickly, but Fate's intended meaning was pretty clear.
10. Well, they're all bullshit since there's no inconsistency anyway. And what info would those questions provide? Noone would ever answer anything other than "no" to them.
11. No, you misread a basic inference and are STILL stubbornly using it as part of your "case".

@237 -

You're saying you don't know why you think blue is town, and didn't remove the bit about parama town? Interesting.

I would like to hear all your reasoning for parama town, then.

[MehPlusRawr]

No, I'm saying that I was too lazy to go back and see what Blue did that I could use to show he was pro-town. I knew that Parama had made a big post with scumhunting in it, though.

[Leafsnail]

Oh, a big post with scumhunting in? Not that I went through that and said why it was bad, or that scum can fake that, oh no. He made a big post with scumhunting in it.

And blue is protown because you-don't-know-why? That is pretty damn lame.

[Jag Johan]

I'm with Leafsnail on all three. Parama, Blue, Meh. Actually Blue seems like the least strange of them right now.

unvote,

Vote:Parama

@Parama: Why is it wrong to defend Cyanid? You seem to think he is scum, while most (all?) of the bw are made up by people who do not like his attitude. If you building cases upon him being scum you better have some arguments for him being scum.

[NavyCherub]

Panarama+Chronopie.

Let's not get sidetracked by Blue people...

Now this...this isn't productive at all. You could at least give some reasons as to WHY you don't like some suspicion on Blue.

What information are we losing if Leafsnail is vigged and CYANIDE is lynched? (seriously, I don't know, if there's something I'm missing here feel free to explain it)

Discussion.

Yesssssss.

I think that it is

around 60%, depending on the setup.

And who ever dies tonight will be able to

help us in working out the set-up/

...

But we will also get info from the flip after the night phase, although

I think unless there are people with day-time actions

, we risk losing a pro-town player with nothing to go one, just guess work.

Stop doing that, trying to guess the setup doesn't really help anyone at all and posts like this really equate to fluff.

I hope that you're better now, if that isn't just a poor excuse.

Nope, I'm better, got work to catch up on, but I'm physically better. =P

@your case on Cyanide

: I still don't like that you're trying to defend a case that is built on such flimsy foundation. Neither of them have done anything scummy outside of Cyanide's fluff, but I addressed that - you're essentially calling them out for putting aside personal grudges and playing the game.

In other words, I'm voting CYANIDE because, honestly, I don't want to play with him and many people in this game feel the same.
Oh the drama!

May I ask why you joined a game with a player you were so sure you would want policy lynched?

My points will not be invalid tomorrow, will they?

The ones you made today will, because they are not based on anything in the game.

I love how I always get called out for pushing Policy Lynches D1. I would link another recent game where the same thing happened (dram and SpyreX were/are also in that game) and I flipped town, unsurprisingly.
Meh, but that's a meta defense which I want none of.

Being town does not excuse anti-town behavior in any way.

fos parama.

Cyanide (For the reasons I posted earlier, as a policy lynch, and as a test- if he comes up mafia,

we've got a good chance of finding another mafia

)

How is that possible if there hasn't been anything but fluff surrounding his situation?

THIS IS COUNTERPRODUCTIVE BEHAVIOR BECAUSE IT IS WHITE NOISE THAT DOES NO GOOD IN FINDING SCUM MY LORD WHY IS THIS SO HARD TO COMPREHEND.

In this wall of words the only thing you did that could even pretend to be useful was mentioning Farside's weird behavior towards you (which is weird, but I digress).

yessssssssss.

MehPlusRawr, when I'm tunneling someone I don't appreciate you coming and claiming scum.

But I don't mind it either.

HoS: MPR

I don't like your tunneling (grrrr) but I agree that MPR is being not-very-town at all, so

fos mehplusrawr.

but I couldn't really think of anything to write for Blue so I skipped it

really...

and Jag stop bandwagoning all the time, kay? thanks.

[Chronopie]

Not liking blue too much atm, Julano is tilting the scumdar, and sir cyanide (both for policy reasons, and the fact that he's already caused one replacement this game), is my prefered lynch.

MPR has made a big scumslip.
Not really liking parama either.

Undecided on Leaf

Liking Navycherub

[DTMaster]

@Farside

Fate is correct about policy vigs over policy lynches.

To the slower members: Lynches are more useful in terms of information (VC analysis, stances outlined referencing with votes, etc).

@Jacob

But we will also get info from the flip after the night phase, although I think unless there are people with day-time actions, we risk losing a pro-town player with nothing to go one, just guess work.

Ignoring Vigs/SKs/etc, why would you want to have a night flip that is scum directed. Scum would direct kills that are for scum favour. Town direct the lynches towards their favour. Again gross logic, very bad. Assuming only aligned mafia via kills, why do you want start with something that is scum directed?

(factor in SKs, Vigs, then you can try and piece together the information from the multiple kills (if there are any)) Also your Cyanide vote is unimpressive.

@Chrono

"If I were scum" is a scumtell made by bad scum as a rationalisation for the play that they infact commit, thus inadvertently breadcrumbing that they are infact said scum player in and of themselves.
..... blah blah

That's some gross Freudian slips that could be taken, and shot right back at you.

@Blue

Anyway, I'd like to defend my actions. Looking back, I admit that I was a little over eager to get rid of Cyanide. Call it over-excitement about the game starting, and being offended by his play (who shouldn't be?) I'm a little sensitive to his behaviour and would really appreciate getting rid of him. It has nothing to do with the game itself.

Psst, Blue, if you ignore the random ramblings of someone who is clearly acting like a 13 year old in mega-troll mode, you can seriously use this situation and pick out the scummy people. Trust me, Cyanide is a blessing in drawing out the easy scum prey (see Panarama). Let the bait do the work, while we rope some scum in. You hear?

Case on Farside with sword metaphor where I go and vote Cyanide via policy after I explain that I was over zealous about the policy vote.

^^ How I read your case after wards.

FoS: Blue

@Pan
I'm answering your question first, by first pointing out to this quote:

In other words, I'm voting CYANIDE because, honestly, I don't want to play with him and many people in this game feel the same.
Oh the drama! My points will not be invalid tomorrow, will they?
If I am seriously missing something here on the amount of information we gain from a lynch over a vig kill then please feel free to point it out and I will gladly wait for a vigshot.

Fate's point was: You realized you just called for a vig on the SCUM and a lynch on a coinflip.

First: You knew Cyanide was playing considering he was early in the signups and had drove away 5 people. This is no excuse to start spouting policy lynches on people

since you had ample time to not request that replacement when Cyanide joined

. Shame on you.

Secondly: You just demonstrated that: A. You are focused on said policy. B. You are ignoring said scum reads. C. You aren't pursuing said scum reads because policy comes first. Hello: The point is:

why are you acting so high and mighty about playing this game, and lecture to Cyanide about said play style when you sir aren't even scum hunting and playing this game?

Hypocrite much? Yes! This is the important part good sir. I bolded it just for you.

EDIT: Oh wait: You answered your own point:

Okay the grammar here fails but I get the logic here now. Glad someone answered it. I see why lynching scum gets us more info than vigging them.
So let's lynch scum

Was your question still valid given that your scum hunting vs policy lynching stance was usurped by Farside's logic? Fate pretty much iterated the same thing in less words via that quote.

Care to point out what this important point is? I think I'm missing it.DTMaster's post looks like a wagon vote IMO. The points he gives are basically the same as Fate's and he even references Fate's post <_<

Um I am wagoning you. It's called Pro-town wagoning for the win. Read this where I was clear about said wagon.

I like this wagon and where it's going.

Read the above. I joined this wagon and pushed it to steam roller mode because you sir are scummy and deserve a vote.

@Cyanide/Spyrex

Don't make me use my

Taboo Noise on you

. Alpha Pi Zetta Squared!

@Fate/Pan
I interpreted Fate angle as: "Pan, dear. You find Leaf scummy right? Why aren't you hunting down said scummy, scummy man. " tbh.

@Mew/Cyanide
Why hello there. Dear Cyanide, why does poison seem to draw out the most scummy players out in a flash? I tried Honeyed doctors and it never seemed to work. Leaf is looking more pro-town to the dear Mew post. 231 and 232 are :good posting level:

@Pan
Ding ding ding. Fate you won a Pan served to you on a platter. We may procede with the fine dining experience.

Meh's defense of me is bothersome. If he's scum I'll get lynched by association. Though I am inclined to believe scum wouldn't be that obvious, well, you never know...
Leafsnail's vote is a heavily disguised OMGUS, if you didn't catch it.

Why are you worried about Meh being obvious about scum and buddying to you? Hello, it's obvious that scum would like to set up smoke and mirrors to cause good mislynching. To me this part of your post is very incriminating because:

Why are you worried about obvious-scum Meh being obvious-buddy in your scenerio. If we have obvious scum: the correct answer is to lynch him.

@Meh

Eh, I made a mistake by being absentminded. I was thinking of Leafsnail at the time. As for my defending Parama- I had intended to write a sentence or so showing that each of the people there looked more likely to be town than scum, but I couldn't really think of anything to write for Blue so I skipped it, forgetting to erase the bit about Parama so it would be all nice, neat, and in a similar format.

Oi: You were thinking Leaf at the time? Your 228 sounds like a "bandwagon" argument against Leaf. I'm sorry: but were you seriously admitting that you wanted to settle and lynch Cyanide with Leaf because of the common scum thread you shared?

@Vigs (if they are any) screw the Cyanide vig shot, kill the obvious scum Meh. Save us time from lynching him.

[Chronopie]

p.s: Can cyanide please stop being a dick for a while, so we can sort out your scumbuddies.

[SpyreX]

Holy wall of words batman.

I've got this feeling deep in my gut MpR is town. Its just too weeeeird.

[Chronopie]

[quote="DTM]@Chrono

"If I were scum" is a scumtell made by bad scum as a rationalisation for the play that they infact commit, thus inadvertently breadcrumbing that they are infact said scum player in and of themselves.
..... blah blah

That's some gross Freudian slips that could be taken, and shot right back at you.[/quote]

A Freudian slip, or parapraxis, is an error in speech, memory, or physical action that is interpreted as occurring due to the interference of some unconscious ('dynamically repressed') wish, conflict, or train of thought.

I meant exactly what I said. i.e. "if I were scum" reasoning can be interpreted as a scumslip.

[Fate]

@242: You don't mention blue in this post, yet your vote remains on him. Why?

[NavyCherub]

@242: You don't mention blue in this post, yet your vote remains on him. Why?

I hope this is a joke, as my comments toward Blue in that post may be the most important part.

I hope that you're better now, if that isn't just a poor excuse.

Nope, I'm better, got work to catch up on, but I'm physically better. =P

@your case on Cyanide

: I still don't like that you're trying to defend a case that is built on such flimsy foundation. Neither of them have done anything scummy outside of Cyanide's fluff, but I addressed that - you're essentially calling them out for putting aside personal grudges and playing the game.