Mini 935 -- The Fountainhead (Completed)

[d3x]

@RC- I'm not saying that I'm against your position on cruelty, but we could potentially be in MyLo right now. Before we move forward on Lynching, we should find out what AGM has for the last few Nights. Unless you have reason to doubt his softClaim, it will make this a hell of a lot easier.

[cruelty]

Actually, I was a one-shot vigi and I killed zang last night.

I'll deal with your post later RC.

[RedCoyote]

Well, I didn't see any softclaim. Regardless of my conclusion, do either of you disagree with my logic?

[cruelty]

How do you explain DDD's relationship with you? Do you think he was sincerely interested in pressuring you? In lynching you?

Non-existant, don't know. Yep, inasmuch as he'd like to lynch an innocent.

I noticed you never really had any discussion with him and vice versa.

You addressed him a grand total of once. Should I read into that? Maybe I should, that one time was you disagreeing with him then going off on an unrelated (to DDP) tangent. Your iso 1, incidentally. This some sort of early-game distancing or what?

Also, you on the Kthx wagon, despite Kthx hammering DDD, seemed a little peculiar. I mean, you put Kthx at L-1 without really giving it a second thought,

Did it? I explained why I voted him (he sounded to me like scum trying to sound pro-town) quite clearly. As for putting him at L1, shrug, I wasn't expecting a self-hammer. I think it was a weak play given that he -was- behaving scummy and it's possible (not probable) that there's all town on his wagon.

But you were scared to vote Almaster during D1,

It seemed very contradictory to me.

D1 is different to the midgame. I'm really hesitant to push a D1 wagon unless I have a very strong read or the deadline is approaching. Mid-game I generally have better reads and/or information. If I make it to mylo or lylo then I'll be playing safe and slow again. Right now, not so concerned.

It seemed very contradictory to me.

I'm not particularly thrilled about this to be honest, I don't really rate your case, I think you're walking well-trodden ground with the day1 lynch stuff, and I think picking and choosing select things that scum said is dangerous (at best).

Well what did you get from reading DDD on D1 after his flip? Nothing?

I learned that the one time he mentioned you D1 was... well, he didn't. He quoted you and responded to your request for him to post. If we're gonna play the strange relationships with DDD game then bring a mop, it'll get messy.

I don't know if there were two mafia on that wagon, but I think we can all agree there was at least one.

Why?



You know what else I noticed?

Post 334, you note that both Porkens and Budja amde strong arguments - both were all over Kthx. You follow this up with a little bit of a dig at Kthx yourself, then abruptly launch into a failure of a case incriminating myself and Fate along with DDD. Capped, of course, by a vote for me. Reading back on that post, through your quotes and conclusions, it really stands out as being incredibly flimsy. I'll elaborate on this a little later, for now I need sleep.

[Fate]

So Almaster is left alive again. Interesting. I think if we use his two innocents, plus whatever claim will help explain the nokill, we might have a better shot lynching today rather than waiting until tomorrow?

@Cruelty, and reasoning for shooting Zang last night as opposed to N1, or N2?

@RC: You reasoning is fine. Then again my vote on Kthx was for a 180 from his D1 to D2 play (first wanting to extend the day, then hammering DDD quickly for what I thought were "townie points"), so I'd more likely buy his change in play.

Now Porkens if being his usual minimalistic self, so not much to say about him. I'm starting to wonder if scum killed Budja to "narrow down" the wagon on Kthx, so they could push a lynch easier. That's what you are doing RC, and it is noted.

And now we wait for AGM.

[AlmasterGM]

Sorry to disappoint everyone, but I have no additional data.

Here's my reads right now:

cruelty - I'll buy his Vig claim unless there's a CC.
RC - Looks pretty bad given that he starts by pushing for cruelty in mylo and then gets owned by a claim. Fate's theory also makes sense, especially since cruelty being on the kthx wagon was one of his main contentions against cruelty.
Porkens - looks the most suspicious to me. He has pushed for rushed wagons on three townies this game. I don't know if this is his standard behavior or what, but it certainly doesn't make him look town.
Fate - seems town to me.
d3x - This guy is tricky. I have no read on him, which makes me suspicious my default. Does anyone else have anything to say on his play?

[Fate]

...or amg isn't a cop

Do you have a basis or reason to suspect this?

Also, I don't think AGM claimed Cop anywhere. Your light RoleFishing has been noted.

Thoughts on d3x? I went back and found this. He wasn't anywhere near the Kthx lynch, but his "rolefishing" comment basically started the whole thing.

Yet he voted Zang instead. A policy lynch on Zang D3? Right after he calls someone out for rolefishing?

D3x/RC seems about right.

I'd also like to point out that scum are more likely to go back and point out "connections" between their dead scumbuddies and town more often than town. (Well, RC caliber town anyway).

I'm disappointed you have nothing for us AGM. Only townies/Miller have died so far, so I think we should be at a point where a massclaim would break it open with all the "info" we supposedly should have.

[AlmasterGM]

I dunno about a massclaim. Nobody died during N2, which leads me to believe there is probably a doctor hiding somewhere out there. Outing him doesn't buy us anything and takes away our chances of hitting a save tonight and avoiding a loss. I think that unless someone has information that can save a townie from death (and thus decrease our chances of losing), we should not claim.

[Porkens]

RC yesterday was slurping my nuts, which gives me a naughty feeling in his direction.

I believe the vig claim until further notice.

You can also blame me for suggesting the Zang murder, if you like.

Vote RC

[cruelty]

@Cruelty, and reasoning for shooting Zang last night as opposed to N1, or N2?

N1 = no real reads (didn't want to accidentally kill someone of importance).

N2 = still no real reads given the speed at which DDD was lynched.



Decided that Zang is essentially an unreadable player, and therefore getting rid of him would be beneficial to town regardless of his alignment. I didn't want him alive in mylo/lylo because he has a tendency to be highly distracting and instrumental in causing chaos. I guessed that N3 was probably the last night I could be 100% sure that me killing town wouldn't end the game, so even though D2 was extremely short, I had to either use my shot then or hope that AGM came through with more info. Given that he said nothing in D3 I figured that even if he had good info for us, they'd be lynched, so I'd still be shooting blindly.

[RedCoyote]

You addressed him a grand total of once. Should I read into that? Maybe I should, that one time was you disagreeing with him then going off on an unrelated (to DDP) tangent. Your iso 1, incidentally. This some sort of early-game distancing or what?

Get real, cruelty. My accusation was serious. DDD's vote on you was sketchy, and I'll hold to that forever and a day.

I think it was a weak play given that he -was- behaving scummy and it's possible (not probable) that there's all town on his wagon.

It's very unlikely and you know it. I'll acknowledge the first part, he was definitely behaving scummy. But for you to push the idea that all remaining scum are between me, d3x, and Almaster is silly. The scum knew Kthx was town, and the town didn't. Period.

Post 334, you note that both Porkens and Budja amde strong arguments - both were all over Kthx. You follow this up with a little bit of a dig at Kthx yourself, then abruptly launch into a failure of a case incriminating myself and Fate along with DDD. Capped, of course, by a vote for me. Reading back on that post, through your quotes and conclusions, it really stands out as being incredibly flimsy. I'll elaborate on this a little later, for now I need sleep.

I don't know what makes it flimsy. I was right about Budja, I was right to hold my suspicions back of Kthx (unlike, say, you), and I'm going to be right in my conclusion that at least one of you and Fate are scum.

---

I'm starting to wonder if scum killed Budja to "narrow down" the wagon on Kthx, so they could push a lynch easier. That's what you are doing RC, and it is noted.

Well, first of all, that's complete WIFOM. Second of all, I think any reasonable townie looking at the current game would agree that you or Porkens should be today's lynch. I know that probably doesn't sit well with either of you, but it is not probable that the Kthxbye lynch had no scum on it.

---

Sorry to disappoint everyone, but I have no additional data.

On the one hand, I think you are playing with fire by being so secretive, but on the other, you making it through two nights does ease my concerns a bit.

cruelty - I'll buy his Vig claim unless there's a CC.

To be honest, I'm not convinced. I asked directly and clearly for someone to point toward a "softclaim" or breadcrumbing from earlier in the game, and no one has been able to do so yet. Moreover, if I recall correctly, cruelty was absolutely not on board with a scumZang read, and argued, instead, for scumAlmaster on D1. I don't recall cruelty ever documenting a change in opinion over this, but if someone can prove me wrong I will drop the point.

Fate's theory also makes sense, especially since cruelty being on the kthx wagon was one of his main contentions against cruelty.

Like hell it does. Fate is just being opportunistic. Tell me you can see that, Almaster.

---

I'd also like to point out that scum are more likely to go back and point out "connections" between their dead scumbuddies and town more often than town. (Well, RC caliber town anyway).

Well I appreciate the comment, but this is a completely unsubstantiated opinion. I would argue very much to the contrary. Connections between dead scum and other players are the best pieces of evidence out there, short of an investigation or serious slip.

---

Anyways, regardless of cruelty's actual role, him claiming the second shot makes it unlikely he was DDD's partner. That doesn't necessarily mean that he's town-aligned though.

Still, I think that just means we have an easier decision before us. Fate or Porkens.

Unvote; vote: Fate

[Fate]

Fair enough Cruelty.

RC yesterday was slurping my nuts, which gives me a naughty feeling in his direction.

I believe the vig claim until further notice.

You can also blame me for suggesting the Zang murder, if you like.

Vote RC

While I agree RC has been pretty buddy happy, anything that makes you feel strongly enough to lynch him at MyLo?

[Fate]

Oh Simulpost.

Heheheh. R_C as scum, interesting. You went from thinking I always sound townie, to voting me at MyLo based solely on the fact that I was one of two people alive on a town lynch?

If there was scum on the lynch, why would they kill Budja to narrow it down? I see no other reason for a Budja kill, no apparent breadcrumbs, nothing.

Anyway if we're going to lynch today, which I'm leaning more and more toward with RC's recent posts, then a massclaim would be in order.

[RedCoyote]

What do I know? I think a lot of people sound townie. XD

Maybe a no lynch would be in order though. We do have Almaster still here.

[Fate]

Still, I think that just means we have an easier decision before us. Fate or Porkens.

Unvote; vote: Fate

I thought the numbers were 50% from your PoV, Red? Doesn't get much better than that even with a no lynch.

Or now do you want to no lynch, kill me/Porkens, and then one of us "must" be scum?

[cruelty]

Anyways, regardless of cruelty's actual role, him claiming the second shot makes it unlikely he was DDD's partner. That doesn't necessarily mean that he's town-aligned though.

Eh? Why?

You know that the first shot was the mafia kill?

[HowardRoark]

Vote Count -- D4

RedCoyote (1) -- Porkens
Fate (1) -- RedCoyote

Not Voting (4) -- Fate, d3x, cruelty, AlmasterGM

With 6 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

Deadline is 26 APR 2010 2:15pm UTC. (Deadline)

[RedCoyote]

I thought the numbers were 50% from your PoV, Red? Doesn't get much better than that even with a no lynch.

How do you argue that an extra investigation would make it worse?

---

You know that the first shot was the mafia kill?

What do you mean? You shot Budja? I just doubt that the scum would get two kills in one night.

[AlmasterGM]

Alright, I guess it's time I was less cryptic about my role. I'm a JOAT. I have no further investigations. No-lynching will narrow down our lynch pool, but it won't get us another innocent/guilty.

[d3x]

{d3x}

wasn't anywhere near the Kthx lynch, but his "rolefishing" comment basically started the whole thing.

You should read your quote from me again. I "wasn't anywhere near the Kthx Lynch" because I didn't have a strong ScumRead on him. I had him Neutral leaning Scum; points for- early proTown play and Hammering Scum RB, points against- p273 and his Light Rolefishing. I know Kthx IRL and he wasn't dropping nearly enough tells for me to want him up for a Lynch, especially one that went so damn fast {L-1 in ~30 posts? Seriously?}.

As you're so keen to discuss the wagon, why were you sitting so high on it, Fate? As far as I can tell, you were putting him at L-2 for quickHammering Scum. Did you feel that he was bussing? If so, do you have any solid reasons to believe that? There were legit reasons for him to Hammer, namely the Alm SoftClaim {@RC- p290}.

A policy lynch on Zang D3? Right after he calls someone out for rolefishing?

Who said this was a "policy Lynch"? He was actively being antiTown. He was dodgy, jumpy, and refused to ScumHunt. Those are all major ScumTells in my book. If cruelty hadn't NKed him, I'd probably be Voting him right now. Just because it

also

helps us that he's not in the Endgame scenario doesn't mean it's a policy Lynch.

My breakdown of the Kthx Lynch

-

Budja

Porkens- L-3 due to Kthx's response to RoleFishing claim
Fate- L-2 {suspicion listed above}
cruelty- L-1 due to Kthx's request of AGM {re: not sharing innocent reads}

Kthx

I don't like either cruelty's or Fate's reasons for being on this wagon. In hindsight, I'm really not liking their interactions either from Fate's end {namely those starting with p99}. With the uncontested Claim on the NK, cruelty has more credibility imo.

If I were sure it wasn't MyLo, I'd be Voting:Fate here.

------------------------

Another JOAT Claim? *groan...

[Fate]

As you're so keen to discuss the wagon, why were you sitting so high on it, Fate? As far as I can tell, you were putting him at L-2 for quickHammering Scum. Did you feel that he was bussing? If so, do you have any solid reasons to believe that? There were legit reasons for him to Hammer, namely the Alm SoftClaim {@RC- p290}.

If I were sure it wasn't MyLo, I'd be Voting:Fate here.

Oh look, my other suspect comes in and suspects me for the same reason as RC, except you didn't make his mistake and throw a vote down.
The last line indicates: well Fate could be town, and thus voting him is risky, but he is very likely scum.

Porkens was on that wagon too, any reason you don't mention him at all?

Anyway, yes I felt Kthx was bussing. I quoted all the posts that made me feel this way, (Kthx going from pro-town extend the day to hammering the scum RB quickly). It just seemed like a way to get the most out of lynching your scumbuddy, you might as well get townpoints. Of course in retrospect I was wrong.

[Porkens]

It's between RC and Fate for me.

I'm voting, why aren't you?

Let's go.

[AlmasterGM]

It's between RC and Fate for me.

I'm voting, why aren't you?

Let's go.

Yo, you know where rushing days 1 and 3 got us?

Nowhere.

I can understand the desire to not have a 30 page D1 or something. However, there is no need for mylo to be over RIGHT NAO OMG GOGOGOGOGOGO!!!!!!!1

Chilly.

[RedCoyote]

You think it was a straight town lynch too, Porkens?

[Porkens]

I think the scum are staying off the wagons. Look at the DDD lynch