Mini 930:Morning People Mafia (Game Over!)

[chauchaudotcom]

Mod: Please prod Sucrose. Thank you.

=O! IT'S NIKASCUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're making a leap. The important part of what I said was if he was avoiding this game. Which, based on the fact he's dropped isn't the case.

I call pure BS on this. I know for a fact that Deer was online AFTER he was prodded. Meaning even if he chose not to pick up the pm, he definitely saw it there. Unfortunately I can't label that as scum or town play since replacing out is null. But it does piss me off. This ongoing replacing out when under pressure trend is mad frustrating. Seriously people. If you are town, then I grr in your direction.

On a related note, Spy and chau have been mentioning each other a bit recently, which is forcing me to consider a possibility of a connection between them.

Is it my fault he's the only one actually doing something? Plus it's funny you mentioned this since I'm the one who first introduced the possibility of a spy-chau scum team.

If I do decide to look into their posts and their interactions with each other (and also chau-wf), I'll let you know.

If you're suspicious of us? Why wouldn't you? (look into it that is)

I am agreeing with chau's view on his change from rz/me to SSSS at the last moment.

Why agree now? And not before? ..you know....when I actually said it?

JB - What are your thoughts on NS's recent revelation on each player??

[Sucrose]

Sorry, have been busy. I'll try and post more, promise.

Sucrose - What is your current view on deer?

I'm not sure about him. My thoughts on a read-through of his ISO:

He attacks SSSS for jumping on his "gambit" wagon, but then seems pleased with him when he unvotes. His attacks on Rzhang for Rzhang's "gambit" seem reasonable.
I have a hard time seeing his move from attacking Rzhang/Dragonfly to attacking SSSS as scummy because at the time, I thought the exact same things. In conclusion, I don't get as good a townie feel from him as I do from some other posters, but his lurking is generally the only suspicious thing he's done.

I was feeling a lot better about Dragonfly up until post #367:

Well, because I'm not confirmed town at this point, SSSS's wagon was more likely to have been manipulated by scum.

What?

Regardless of that, my top two scum suspects are Peanutman and Nobody Special.

[chauchaudotcom]

I was feeling a lot better about Dragonfly up until post #367

What's off about his post 367? This isn't exactly a new accusation against Dragon. I believe he talked about this D1 as well. Why bring it up now instead of before?

Also, how do you feel about Peanut's latest actions? Given that you are pretty suspicious of him I'm surprised you haven't commented on any of Peanut's d2 activity. Seems like you just threw out a suspect just to have a suspect that wasn't

[chauchaudotcom]

Deer.*

[SpyreX]

CHAU WE HATH BEEN OUTED. ALAS.

I call pure BS on this. I know for a fact that Deer was online AFTER he was prodded. Meaning even if he chose not to pick up the pm, he definitely saw it there. Unfortunately I can't label that as scum or town play since replacing out is null. But it does piss me off. This ongoing replacing out when under pressure trend is mad frustrating. Seriously people. If you are town, then I grr in your direction.

He -could- have been avoiding it but its not avoiding it to avoid pressure if he gets replaced is what I was saying.

[RedCoyote]

I enclosed my notes. Read them if you'd like, but I'm not going to hold anyone to it. I'd like you to read everything after them though.

Game Notes

Who else hates RVS?

I do. Intensely.

For someone who hates RVS, you sure aren't making any efforts to move the game along.

Well, this game of mafia is starting to sound more like a thread in "Mafia Discussion!"

Well maybe you should try to "expedite the scumhunting!"

I like to pick on those who complain without really attempting to move the game along. fitz is an opposite example of these two quotes above. He said the game was moving slow, so he asked a general question.

I'm gonna guess that there are one or more scum voting Deer, so I'm tempted to put him at L-1.

Huh?

I'm not the strongest scumhunter.

This is the second time you've said this.

No, I'm not pushing for a claim. Explaining the gambit effectively makes it fail. I'll explain once I see the results. Anyway, scum suspects (who are they)?

This seems like fake scumhunting to me.

I'll explain my reasoning. Just, I can't right now.

I'm not specifically focusing on fallen's posts, but he just keeps posting. He's overselling this "gambit" and coming across as extra paranoid.

That said...FA doesn't appear to be so new. So much rationalization before putting another vote on the Deer BW. Stating rzhang's vote was putting Deer back at L-1 (which it wasn't...and never was) missing the ssss unvote right above. Posting that he couldn't explain his reasons for voting Deer (even though he wasn't asked to explain them and he had time to post that he couldn't explain them???). Then ~30 minutes later...he's suddenly able to explain his reasons (= to draw out/ID scum...not to actually get rid of Deer). If your plan didn't work...why are you convinced rzhang is scum? From your plan that didn't work? And you need to re-read a game that just started?

This is surprisingly cognizant and exactly what I am thinking at this stage of the game.

Also, I'm a bit confused why I'm being voted or considered a suspect?

How? fitz couldn't have been any clearer.

and also, just throwing it out there as food for thought, do i post like someone who would be so noob that i would make an L-1 vote as scum on an obviously random bandwagon thinking that it will actually get someone lynched.... i mean i would have to be really nooby or stupid, despite my posts (which i shall claim to be at least not nooby or stupid). but if that is your opinion of me then i guess its just a shame

WIFOM and defensive.

The thing is, rzhang, your explanations have not been about why you are town and not scum. That's what this game is about. No one cares if your actions started discussion in the game - it's not a viable defense.

*high five*

I'm stepping in one of the more, if not the most, townie sounding players so far.

other people please post, you look bad lurking during a time like this

This sounds desparate.

And yes I am aware that my vote is still on Deer. Whether or not he is my actual main suspect I would not like to say at this time.

Am I the only one irked by this? The only time I've seen someone evaluate themselves they turned out to be scum. I see no reason why town would ever need to evaluate themselves.

Nope, I thought it was strange as well, but what made it worse was this:

Please do not misread that as an admission of guilt.

Who's saying it's an admission of guilt? chau just mentioned it looked suspicious.

Okay, just making sure. He's L-2.

Vote: smashbro_of_the_SSS

L-2 is acceptable but L-1 isn't?

Bueller?

Bueller?

Bueller?

Can you badger the Mod anymore? It's almost like you're making these posts complaining about the vote counts to look as though you're contributing.

I personally agree that RZ and FA look like a scum team but I am willing to give their replacements a bit to read up although I think we should put the pressure on right away so that we can get a read from them quickly.

Really? You've been here for over three years and you're still going to claim that it's reasonable that a scumteam up and joins at the hip on the first few pages?

Wait, wait, wait. You

misread

and accidentally wound up with a scum link between Rzhang and Fallen Angel? Huh? What exactly was it that you misread to make you think that?

I agree with Te's post 205 in the same vein.

(Hint: that means you guys need to post more frequently!)

This is the second time I remember you whining about "you guys" without really doing anything to fix it yourself.

I call bs on everyone complaining there is nothing to talk about. If there is nothing to talk about, you ask questions, you ACTIVELY scumhunt. What are you waiting for? Scum to run around screaming, "OMG I'M SCUM LYNCH MEEEE!!!"

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. At this point you, Te, and Deer seem like the only players interested in scumhunting.

Then why had you not voted him earlier, JB? I find it hard to believe that just him saying "feel free to wagon on me" gets you to say that above quote.

I like this.

Why are you willing to bandwagon someone you find town?

I really like this, and check out Te's response:

Because I also dislike when people come from a long hiatus only to post that they have nothing to post about. What's more this game seems pretty devoid of life

[...]

I'm a bit uncomfortable with him having four votes now though

Sounds like he's talking out of both sides of his mouth here. He finds SSSS townie, yet he wants to join his wagon, yet SSSS' recent posts rubbed him the wrong way, yet he feels uncomfortable with the wagon.

This sounds like a lot of spin to me.

However, Nobody Special is my winner.

The FoS throwdown on rzhang / fallen angel saying he'd throw the vote if he wasn't getting replaced... then voting him later?

I'd have a feeling that wf would be your winner had you not replaced as him. XD

I can't top Dragonfly's post 276. Every replacement should be so thorough.

Spy replaced in, Sucrose and Deer tunneled all day, Jb is all over the place and Dragon is...well, yea.

Who did Deer tunnel all day? And Spyrex and Dragonfly get a pass because they're replacements? I don't understand.

SSSS and rzhang, by the fact that they amassed large wagons on the first day, are less likely to be scum because the informed minority (i.e. scum) usually play a part in orchestrating them (either first vote, a case, a follow-up vote, etc.).

You know, it took a couple of times reading this, but I can understand this. There's logic to this, although it's awfully political for my taste. What I would contend is that the wagon on SSSS and rzhang had what I saw to be solid justifications. Don't you think so?

Chau illustrates the true problem:

NS, Deer, TeWicah.

wf's replacement is one to talk about using lurking as a scum indicator.

I call pure BS on this. I know for a fact that Deer was online AFTER he was prodded. Meaning even if he chose not to pick up the pm, he definitely saw it there. Unfortunately I can't label that as scum or town play since replacing out is null. But it does piss me off. This ongoing replacing out when under pressure trend is mad frustrating. Seriously people. If you are town, then I grr in your direction.

I can empathize, but that's a tough standard to adhere to. Deer has not been the only player to replace out while posting in other threads (fallen, rzhang, wf).

It's not too hard to pick up as a replacement here. Deer has been one of the more townie players in this game, and I challenge anyone to say otherwise. I suspect many of the votes cast against him are on account of pressuring him for lurking or pressuring him for the hammer. If it's the former, rest assured I am here now to answer questions and take over the player slot, and if it's the latter, explain why it is SSSS shouldn't have been hammered and/or why Deer shouldn't have been the one to do it.

I've loved chau almost uniformly through the entire game. Her posts have been on target almost the entire time. I have beef with just about everyone else, which is pretty standard for me. I have a Scumscale for you to sort of visualize where I am coming from:

[

Town

]---chau--------Sucrose---peanut-Dragonfly[

∙

]NS----jbern-----Nikanor--Spyrex----[

Scum

]

I'm looking at two things, the final vote wagons and the previous day's discussions. As Spyrex brought up, the mafia was likely split, but we'd probably have more success concentrating on the lynch wagon, SSSS, because it had the most voters and SSSS was town.

Based on all that, I'd say our lynch should be Spyrex or jbern today, with a significant preference toward Spyrex.

Spyrex has made a decent entrance into the game. He called out NS, who I thought was being largely ignored by most of the other players, and he had the balls to say rhzang was probably being unfairly pushed on (although I don't necessarily agree with him). The problem isn't so much with Spyrex as it is with wf (water_foul). wf was in another world when he was making his posts. Every post he made was more paranoid than the previous. The crux of the paranoia being his apology and complete backflip the moment someone asked him why he suspected rzhang/fallen. Even though SSSS flipped town, SSSS really wasn't that bad of a lynch. I didn't care for his play much at all, but I didn't bother to really mark it down on account of him already having flipped. What makes wf/Spyrex more suspicious to me is the fact that he's being largely ignored. NS and rzhang surely shouldn't have won awards for being the most townie, but you'd be hard pressed to tell me they deserved to be voted over wf. The town can correct it's mistake by voting the scum (or one of the scum) on the SSSS wagon yesterday: Spyrex.

As a secondary lynch, I'd probably be more inclined to jbern rather than Nikanor (although I think Nikanor is more suspicious). jbern made some comment that SSSS was going to flip scum or he'd eat his sock. Well, I don't know about that sort of absolution, especially on a D1 lynch. Moreover, jbern played to both the SSSS and the NS wagons. Maybe he liked them both, I don't know, but I suspect he was trying to stay on Te and peanut's goodside. jbern has generally been flying under the radar it seems like. I know there have been many replacements and lurkers, but I would say jbern, Te, and NS are all guilty of only making posts when really necessary. Maybe I'm offbase if someone can prove me wrong empirically, and I'll retract this point if that's the case.

As I said, chau is easily my biggest town read, probably followed by Sucrose. The group of peanut, Dragonfly, and NS are all somewhat in this big, murky, more neutral zone. NS has been plauged by inactivity and general indifference to this game (I'd ask that he consider replacing out if he's not interested in the game). peanut and Dragonfly have replaced in okay, but they're suffering from their replacements like Spyrex is, I think. Spyrex is worse off though, because wf was an easy, easy scumpick for me (someone ask Spyrex why he shyed away from talking about wf, lol), and it's just that much worse that he had a hand in the SSSS wagon. Nikanor is scum in my book because of the big contradiction chau caught Te on in relation to the SSSS wagon, but I'm willing to hear what Nikanor has to say as she enters the game.

Mod: Could you please post a link to the end of D1 (and all future days) on the first, second, or third post of the game?

Done

[chauchaudotcom]

L-2 is acceptable but L-1 isn't?

At that point in time? Yes.

Who did Deer tunnel all day? And Spyrex and Dragonfly get a pass because they're replacements? I don't understand.

RZ. Even while waiting for replacements the only one Deer ever showed remote interest in was RZ.

And don't misrep what I wrote. I never gave Spy or Dragon a pass. Since they were replacements their actions were a lot less, and much harder, to read. The point of my statement was to illustrate how frustratingly suspicious

everyone

has been.

I can empathize, but that's a tough standard to adhere to. Deer has not been the only player to replace out while posting in other threads (fallen, rzhang, wf).

Hence I said the act of replacing out was null. But the reasons I was suspicious of him before still stands. Based off his inconsistent views, his tunneling, wagon and post analysis, his lack of activity d2, I've concluded there's a strong probability he's scum, replaced out or not.

What's your grounds for your town read on Sucrose?

What makes wf/Spyrex more suspicious to me is the fact that he's being largely ignored.

How does this make

him

more suspicious if people choose not to be suspicious of him? I don't see that as a scumtell. If no one's questioning him, question his actions yourself like Peanut. If that were in fact a legit scumtell then the scummiest person should be me.

NS and rzhang surely shouldn't have won awards for being the most townie, but you'd be hard pressed to tell me they deserved to be voted over wf. The town can correct it's mistake by voting the scum (or one of the scum) on the SSSS wagon yesterday: Spyrex.

No. Deer deserves it over all of them.

Nikanor is scum in my book because of the big contradiction chau caught Te on in relation to the SSSS wagon, but I'm willing to hear what Nikanor has to say as she enters the game.

If nika is pretty much caught scum to you why are you voting spy?

[SpyreX]

Ohh Red I love and hate you.

I agree 100% about chau being the bastion of light in this setup. I even agree with Sucrose feelin' town.

However, I'm still positive one scum lies in the mix of now Nik, NS, Red.

And, if its going to be Sins of the Father the case you better be clear that's what you're doing. WF had lost his mind but, alas, not scum.

Additionally, if we're talking about a 3:9 setup (which I assume we are) you better be clear that you're assuming the split was 2:1 on the SSSS wagon because otherwise you've approached it backwards.

[jbernier93]

JB - What are your thoughts on NS's recent revelation on each player??

Bland, nothing worth commenting on. Seems generic enough that it could come from town or scum.

Well, this game of mafia is starting to sound more like a thread in "Mafia Discussion!"

Well maybe you should try to "expedite the scumhunting!"

I like to pick on those who complain without really attempting to move the game along. fitz is an opposite example of these two quotes above. He said the game was moving slow, so he asked a general question.

It was just an "LOL" comment... chill.

As a secondary lynch, I'd probably be more inclined to jbern rather than Nikanor (although I think Nikanor is more suspicious). jbern made some comment that SSSS was going to flip scum or he'd eat his sock. Well, I don't know about that sort of absolution, especially on a D1 lynch. Moreover, jbern played to both the SSSS and the NS wagons. Maybe he liked them both, I don't know, but I suspect he was trying to stay on Te and peanut's goodside. jbern has generally been flying under the radar it seems like. I know there have been many replacements and lurkers, but I would say jbern, Te, and NS are all guilty of only making posts when really necessary. Maybe I'm offbase if someone can prove me wrong empirically, and I'll retract this point if that's the case.

SSSS was the scummiest player I have seen in a while. Granted he flipped town, but his play was horrible.

Saying I "played to wagons" and was "trying to stay on someone's good side" seem to assume I'm scum.

FYI, I'm making posts whenever I feel they are necessary. There's been an activity dropoff recently, that's due to factors beyond my control.

[Sucrose]

I was feeling a lot better about Dragonfly up until post #367

What's off about his post 367? This isn't exactly a new accusation against Dragon. I believe he talked about this D1 as well. Why bring it up now instead of before?

Also, how do you feel about Peanut's latest actions? Given that you are pretty suspicious of him I'm surprised you haven't commented on any of Peanut's d2 activity. Seems like you just threw out a suspect just to have a suspect that wasn't

I meant that the quote stuck out to me as not making sense. DF knows his alignment, to himself, he should be a confirmed townie. Thus, from DF's perspective, how does SSSS flipping town make SSSS's wagon more likely to be scumled?
The rest of the post is haphazard enough that it doesn't really move him much up my scumlist, though.

I have the exact same suspicions of Peanut that I had before, he just hasn't dropped any scumtells in his latest posts.

Good opening post, RedCoyote, I'll have to think on that.

[RedCoyote]

At that point in time? Yes.

May I ask why?

RZ. Even while waiting for replacements the only one Deer ever showed remote interest in was RZ.

I beg to differ.

Post 225: Explains that SSSS and NS are in his top three scum candidates along with rzhang.
Post 216: Rightfully pressures NS for his "I'm lurking... but so are you guys!" crap
Post 201: Rightfully pressures SSSS for his unnecessarily secretive playstyle.
Post 185: Spends equal time explaining his rzhang vote and asking NS to explain his suspicions.
Post 175: Explains his preference of wanting to pressure rzhang more than SSSS, but admits he is not a fan of SSSS' play so far.

I'll be the first one to say that Deer didn't comment enough about the game and the majority of the players as a whole, but it's unfair to classify him as "only having a remote interest in rzhang", when that was clearly not the case. His top suspect was rzhang, but he rightfully pressured NS and SSSS to explain themselves at multiple points in the game.

And don't misrep what I wrote. I never gave Spy or Dragon a pass. Since they were replacements their actions were a lot less, and much harder, to read. The point of my statement was to illustrate how frustratingly suspicious

everyone

has been.

It's not misrepresenting if I told you that I didn't understand it. So you would say Spyrex and Dragonfly are frustratingly suspicious?

What's your grounds for your town read on Sucrose?

What little pressure was applied to the incredibly scummy wf was given mostly be you, Sucrose, and Te. Sucrose didn't follow up on this as much as I would've liked her to, but at least I can look at her play and say that she sounds honest. This is more than I can do for Te, jbern, wf, NS, rzhang, or fallen.

How does this make

him

more suspicious if people choose not to be suspicious of him? I don't see that as a scumtell. If no one's questioning him, question his actions yourself like Peanut.

Because scum traditionally play a large "behind the scenes" role in manipulating the town's focus,

especially

on D1. If wf is scum, then I suspect his partners didn't bother to pressure him as much as they may have. This is a little wifomy, I'll admit. My main point though is that wf not being pressured seems artifical rather than he was just honestly overlooked by the town.

No. Deer deserves it over all of them.

Deer is more scummy than NS or rzhang? Back this up.

If nika is pretty much caught scum to you why are you voting spy?

Come on, chau. You know what I mean.

"Nikanor is [more likely to be] scum in my book because..."

If you are going to push me on semantics then I will start pushing back.

---

Ohh Red I love and hate you.

I'm sorry to crash your party, Spyrex, but you are not going to get a win this easy. XD

However, I'm still positive one scum lies in the mix of now Nik, NS, Red.

Let's compromise. Switch my name with yours and you got yourself a deal.

And, if its going to be Sins of the Father the case you better be clear that's what you're doing. WF had lost his mind but, alas, not scum.

I'm absolutely clear, and I'm absolutely confident. wf is totally scum, and there's no two ways around it.

You really don't have any leverage either, because SSSS, as acceptable a lynch he was, flipped town. I think everyone in the game will agree there was scum on that wagon, and I'm doing my best to analyze that wagon. The best direction the town could go is to lynch you, and the second best is to lynch jbern.

Additionally, if we're talking about a 3:9 setup (which I assume we are) you better be clear that you're assuming the split was 2:1 on the SSSS wagon because otherwise you've approached it backwards.

You're going to have to expand on this if you want me to comment on it, because I'm not sure what you mean. It's probably more likely there were two scum on SSSS' wagon, but just one would be reasonable as well.

---

SSSS was the scummiest player I have seen in a while. Granted he flipped town, but his play was horrible.

I respect that, but, especially on D1, I'm resistant toward the kind of absolute rhetoric that you used. When people say "I guarantee player A will flip town/scum", it makes me wonder how they can be so sure.

I'm not hypocritical though; I would've been on giving SSSS the business yesterday too. The difference is, I wouldn't have said that I was that sure of his flip. Moreover, I wasn't very thrilled with your general approach to the game as a whole either. You were clear on your suspicions of SSSS and NS, sure, but what else did you talk about?

Saying I "played to wagons" and was "trying to stay on someone's good side" seem to assume I'm scum.

The point was that you were acting as though you were afraid to really call anyone out. Like I said, you did push SSSS and NS, but those two also coincidentally happened to be the bigger suspects at the time. Why did you not get on Te's case? wf? Sucrose? etc? It all just seems a little too convenient.

FYI, I'm making posts whenever I feel they are necessary. There's been an activity dropoff recently, that's due to factors beyond my control.

Can we say excuses?

You make activity if there is none, you don't cry about it. If you want to make excuses and not take responsibility, then go play at EpicMafia.

---

Good opening post, RedCoyote, I'll have to think on that.

Thanks. I guess my biggest question of you is, why did you not push wf more yesterday? Do you think he adequately explained himself? Do you think the replacing out threw you off some? Did you think Spyrex made up for it?

[SpyreX]

I'm absolutely clear, and I'm absolutely confident.

wf is totally scum, and there's no two ways around it.

You really don't have any leverage either, because SSSS, as acceptable a lynch he was, flipped town. I think everyone in the game will agree there was scum on that wagon, and I'm doing my best to analyze that wagon. The best direction the town could go is to lynch you, and the second best is to lynch jbern.

I respect that, but, especially on D1, I'm resistant toward the kind of absolute rhetoric that you used. When people say "I guarantee player A will flip town/scum", it makes me wonder how they can be so sure.

Hmmmm

You're going to have to expand on this if you want me to comment on it, because I'm not sure what you mean. It's probably more likely there were two scum on SSSS' wagon, but just one would be reasonable as well.

Commit to the stance. If you're parsing out the wagon and are saying two scum were off of it looking for scum ON the wagon is a mathematically bad move.

Actually, you're really making me paranoid in general with this:

You really don't have any leverage either, because SSSS, as acceptable a lynch he was, flipped town. I think everyone in the game will agree there was scum on that wagon, and I'm doing my best to analyze that wagon. The best direction the town could go is to lynch you, and the second best is to lynch jbern.

If it was a "good lynch" then the condemnation makes far more sense on those avoiding the mislynch.

If it was a wagon covered in scum then parsing out the how and why shouldn't be that hard.

Actually, are you ready for this:

Unvote, Vote: RedCoyote

The doublespeak about this is a bit too heavy. And yea, I'm going to get the OMGUS business all up ins. So, I'll up the ante: if I get lynched today and flip town, Red eats a power hammer tomorrow.

So, how's that confidence now? You know, the same confidence you're attacking jb for.

[Nikanor]

I can't picture a true town player saying "Well, I'm going to vote the one person with multiple votes on him without providing any reasoning." How could that come off as town at all?

FA was earlier saying how he always makes sure he tells people about his gambits because he didn't want to be misunderstood as town. Well, rzhang did the exact thing FA did, but didn't say it was a gambit.
This is blatant hypocrisy! Please lynch fallen angel at the earliest convenience. Thank you.

Also, I'm a bit confused why I'm being voted or considered a suspect? There seems to be a bit of confusion as to who said what, and it would make it a great deal easier to explain myself if presented with a clear case. Kthanxbai.

Only scum cares this much about what people think of him.

HoS rzhang86. He voted to help my gambit, which he claims was half-assed and I shouldn't have told people. He wanted me to look bad by not explaining at least partially what I was doing, but wants to take credit for trying to be helpful. He acts overly defensive while saying others should be willing to take risks. He makes my scum radar go nuts. Maybe he is newb-town, but god... His defense makes very little sense to me, and he seems overly cautious. He's taking more credit then he should for actions that did basically nothing. Not willing to vote until I know how many he already has on him (given the confusion with incorrect vote counts) and I want the day to go on as long as possible, but I'm not liking him at the moment.

Zomg!

Unvote(?) Vote: peanutman.

What I mean is that everyone should be allowed to claim. That's an unwritten rule. Also, if you're town, DO NOT FAKECLAIM. That just hurts the town and is one of the worst moves you can make. But it is an unwritten rule that people at L-1 should get the chance to claim and defend themselves, and anyone that goes for the quicklynch before then can should be lynched, or at the very least questioned a lot.

!Ay caramba! Talk about trying to look pro-town. This is sooooo obviously a statement coming from scum! Why was FA not lynched yesterday? Srsly.

i did not take credit for your gambit and your actions. but i do take credit for my part, voting to L-1 (which, i dont mean this in an offensive way, you did not do and which is quite different from voting to L-2). and yes i am taking credit for getting the game going, a direct consequence of my L-1 vote. i give you credit for seeding the first interesting thing to happen in this game, and i take credit for making it flower.

Well, of course I didn't do it, after I saw the vote count was messed up. You think that bothers me? Of course not. But what did you do? Follow a failed gambit that you try to distance yourself from later? Nice.

I see no distancing. He quite clearly takes credit for his own part on the wagon.

I'm currently rubbing my bearded chin. It's about an inch long, and white. It's quite itchy as well, so I rub it a lot.
Anyway, I can see both rzhang and FA as scum at this point, but of different factions. Even a mafia-ally would make sense. rzhang isn't even attempting to scumhunt, and FA is misrepping rzhang. I'd say that FA comes out scummier, though.

Nope. I'm just trying to figure out how you think you're helping in the least bit.

You never actually asked him that.

Also, up to this point I thought that I was replacing Deer and so was ignoring his madly scummy jump on the rzhang wagon. >_< Since I now know that I am not Deer, I'm going to put Deer on my scummy list.

P.S. Can you please make an effort to capitalize? I can't believe I'm the only one getting a headache trying to read your posts.

Oh my god, I replaced myself. >_<

jb is active lurking.

Syke: I have not been in a single game where a VC has been amended that way. In my general experience the count is just edited after the fact. Furthermore if I edit my own post its timestamped and I see no reason to put stamps on my other edits. They are generally post error edits not significant information.

He's avoiding the question. He's not providing his own opinion on the matter. Die scum die.

I do not timestamp posts outside of my own. Nor do many other mods.
I do not cross out edits. Nor do many other mods.
I do not prod until someone has been out for enough time. Nor do many other mods.

Sheeping, appeal to majority, etc.
Okay, I'm done with the 'Mod is scum' jokes, I swear.

Vote: Smashbro_of_the_SSS

This is the second wagon you’ve jumped on, and I don’t like it one bit.

Excellent! That's French for excellent.
smashbro turned out to be town, but I like Sucrose's attentiveness.

Oh, and I agree with the sentiment that water_foul is probscum for rating himself as well as jumping on the rzhang wagon early.

I guess since you called me on it I will share my 2c but it really is not all that useful for the town.

Wot? Townsmembers are all egotistical jerks who think their opinion is the most important. Only scum are usually this modest.
SpyreX is the next lynch after peanutman.
Actually, now that I know that Spy is water_foul's replacement, I'm kind of rethinking his scumminess. SpyreX was the one who originally suggested to the mod that I should replace in. I can't see this move coming from scum, since SpyreX knows how amazing Nikanor is. Surely scum would tremble in fear at my very name, so I don't know why Spy would suggest I replace in if he was scum.
And in case any of you readers were wondering, I

do

love irony!

I would like to note that I have over 24 hours until I need a prod (not now, obviously). Not that I would ever argue with the mod, but I don't agree that 24 hours away is "about to be prodded."

Erm, complaining about being prodded?

OMG I'M SCUM LYNCH MEEEE!!!

Okay!

Vote: chauchaudotcom.

(And yes, I realise this doesn't count.)

peanutman's first post is decent. TOO BAD HE'S STILL SCUM!

I never said you'd have to wait until tomorrow for a vote. I said to expect one by then.

Your word-twisting is noted.

Wtf mate? It looks like it might have been rzhang as the scum in that big argument instead of FA? I'm assuming one scumteam for the moment.

chauchau sticks out awkwardly on this page because she continually labels quotes with the wrong player (81 "Deer" instead of wf, 85, again "Deer" for wf. Her explanation of this (Animal pictures are confusing) makes some sense, so I'll live with it. I was thinking this was a bit scummy because it could have been a way to confuse the town, but on further reflection I'm willing to let it slide as a misunderstanding.)

Paranoia is a towntell!
Too much text. I'm not reading the rest of this post. I have what I want.

Also he switches from his OMGUS vote on me to vote for the only other wagon with any steam today, DF13. Who recently voted SSSS.

WAIT WHAT?!
Lol.

Unvote. Vote: jbernier93.

Only scum try to use OMGUS as a tell.
I might iso jb later. Maybe. Don't count on it; I usually only iso people I'm unsure about.

This kind of irritates me, when a player calls themselves pro-town (or in your case "very town"). Most of your post kind of bothers me, actually, DF - lots of weird stuff going on. I'd like to hear what these ties and connections you've found out are.

Okay, I'm going to do this. Dragonfly has swayed me away from thinking rzhang's spot is scum, and like I said before, SSSS looks to be the next most likely scum.

Eh? Why the change?

But, once he started posting after that, I started getting a town read from him. SSSS kind of OMGUS-ing on DF didn't look good for him either.

This isn't good enough.

After some re-reading, my main suspect right now is Peanut Man. And this is going to sound a little strange, but he's actually my main suspect because of the way he avoided the SSSS wagon. I think it's weird that peanut didn't say anything about SSSS or Rzhang's play, only that he thought they weren't likely to be scum because they were the main targets D1.

Not weird. You're town! Hooray!

=O! IT'S NIKASCUM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi. Excited to see me?

Also, I'm not reading RedCoyote's stuff. Yet.

[Nikanor]

So tl;dr (sorta):

DChau (I keep accidentally typing out the other name, lol.)

Sucrose

Dragonfly

Nobody Special (he's lurking, but some of the things he says give me town vibes).

RedCoyote

SpyreX (I kinda don't want to lynch him because he's so fun to have around.)

peanutman

jbernier

[jbernier93]

jb is active lurking.

BS! Explain to me how I've been active lurking, I don't see how that post explains it.

Also he switches from his OMGUS vote on me to vote for the only other wagon with any steam today, DF13. Who recently voted SSSS.

WAIT WHAT?!
Lol.

Unvote. Vote: jbernier93.

Only scum try to use OMGUS as a tell.

Uhm.
A) Where is your evidence for this?
B) I had already voted SSSS at this point, and was just noting that he switched from an OMGUS vote to a popular wagon. It wasn't being used to further my case, as far as I remember.

[RedCoyote]

Hmmmm

That's taken out of context (although you probably realize that).

And, if its going to be Sins of the Father the case you better be

clear

that's what you're doing.

I'm absolutely clear, and I'm absolutely confident.

I'm

clearly

attacking you for wf's play. I'm

confident

wf is scum. I'm

not certain

he is. This is the same issue I had with chau. If you're going to try to pick on me over semantics, then I'll start picking on you over the same stuff.

In other words, I won't eat my sock if you flip town.

If you're parsing out the wagon and are saying two scum were off of it looking for scum ON the wagon is a mathematically bad move.

Sure. It's slightly more likely there are two scum on the SSSS wagon than one. I thought I made that clear. I would say there is certainly at least one though. If you're coming after me over this, are you saying you're convinced there are definitely two?

If it was a "good lynch" then the condemnation makes far more sense on those avoiding the mislynch.

Regardless whether it was a good lynch or not, the town flip supercedes that. Don't you agree? It's more reasonable that

every

scum was on the SSSS wagon than not, even though they're both unlikely scenarios.

So, how's that confidence now? You know, the same confidence you're attacking jb for.

I'm still incredibly confident in my analysis. I don't think your vote helps or hurts you, as it's in a place you said it would be before I came in the game. But are you really saying your willing to put yourself on the chopping block over my alignment? I don't think I can go that far. Like we were saying earlier, I'd go so far as to say there has to be one or two scum between you, Nikanor, and NS, but that's it.

[Sucrose]

Thanks. I guess my biggest question of you is, why did you not push wf more yesterday? Do you think he adequately explained himself? Do you think the replacing out threw you off some? Did you think Spyrex made up for it?

Water_foul made two baffling posts, then replaced before he answered any of my questions. Spyrex made some comments near the end of D1 that seemed very, very genuine to me, so yeah, he’s kind of made up for it. Unfortunately, like I said when he replaced in, he's a good player and I'm sure he's more than capable of faking good townie reactions. I would be stupid to completely disregard Water_foul’s comments, hell, I myself just won a scum game after replacing a horrible player who the town just sort of forgot about after he replaced.

On the other hand, I've seen bizarre, WTF actions by people who have flipped town too. I don't see those D1 comments as good enough to solely base a lynch off of.

Okay, now a question for you. What do you think of Nobody Special? Do you think him and Jbernier are in an either/neither situation?

[SpyreX]

I'm clearly attacking you for wf's play. I'm confident wf is scum. I'm not certain he is. This is the same issue I had with chau. If you're going to try to pick on me over semantics, then I'll start picking on you over the same stuff.

In other words, I won't eat my sock if you flip town.

The idea of "I'll eat my hat" if this happens is an expression of confidence. One that, of course, I see used all the time right or wrong. If anything, vehemence in that day 1 wagon strikes me as townish versus scummy.

This isn't a function of semantics. This is a function of dissonance.

And, we're running into the classic part of the Sins of the Father. If you're confident wf is scum you have to be confident I am as well. However, when I'm attacked on the basis of my predecessor I'm put in that awesome position of being unable to elucidate or defend behavior

I have not committed.

Sure. It's slightly more likely there are two scum on the SSSS wagon than one. I thought I made that clear. I would say there is certainly at least one though. If you're coming after me over this, are you saying you're convinced there are definitely two?

I'm not sure -where- the split lies yet. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a 1:1:1 split. I'm "coming after you" because of this line:

I'm looking at two things, the final vote wagons and the previous day's discussions. As Spyrex brought up, the mafia was likely split, but we'd probably have more success concentrating on the lynch wagon, SSSS,

because it had the most voters and SSSS was town.

Having the most voters is backwards unless you think there is a 2 split. Otherwise, with the other business going on, this seems like justification-after-the-fact for having a basis to vote me.

Regardless whether it was a good lynch or not, the town flip supercedes that. Don't you agree? It's more reasonable that every scum was on the SSSS wagon than not, even though they're both unlikely scenarios.

A town flip makes it a poorer lynch, yes. However, I wasn't the one saying it was a good lynch (justifying your replacements position on it) and then attacking the lynch itself as scum driven.

Again, if there are two scum in this parsing out the reasons isn't that difficult of an undertaking.

I'm still incredibly confident in my analysis. I don't think your vote helps or hurts you, as it's in a place you said it would be before I came in the game. But are you really saying your willing to put yourself on the chopping block over my alignment? I don't think I can go that far. Like we were saying earlier, I'd go so far as to say there has to be one or two scum between you, Nikanor, and NS, but that's it.

I am confident enough that this is doublespeak to call you on it. Sometimes that means rolling the hard six, which is exactly what I'm doing here.

[Dragonfly13]

Is it my fault he's the only one actually doing something? Plus it's funny you mentioned this since I'm the one who first introduced the possibility of a spy-chau scum team.

That's a rhetorical question, correct? I've been putting this game on skim-keep-up while I catch up on the other one I replaced into (it's 87 pages now and I have 50-something left to read) so forgive me for tossing names when I don't have infinite time to delve into their ISOs. I get wary when people introduce a possibility of a someoneelse-them scum team, because if it's true, it makes it more far-fetched and it feels like a possible bus. You're still playing town; it's spy I'm worried about because of water_foul.

If you're suspicious of us? Why wouldn't you? (look into it that is)

I will at some point, just not now. I blame time.

Why agree now? And not before? ..you know....when I actually said it?

Tbh, I never put much thought into Deer being scum individually, it was always a case of "well, he's a bit of a lurker, and I see connections to SSSS." It was always by association with other scummy players. Now that I've had some time to put thought into what I've skimmed over, I agree that it's likely. My recent gutscum have been Spy, peanutman, and to a smaller extent, JB, and maybe Sucrose. So I haven't been considering Deer much recently, or anyone else for that matter. Reading things more than once helps me click.

What?

I was looking at the situation from two different viewpoints almost at the same time, so some of the views in that paragraph directly contradict each other. The viewpoints are: the rest of the players in this game / the rest of the town, and me. In one of these views, I am confirmed town; in the other, I am not. This should also be a satisfactory response to

I meant that the quote stuck out to me as not making sense. DF knows his alignment, to himself, he should be a confirmed townie. Thus, from DF's perspective, how does SSSS flipping town make SSSS's wagon more likely to be scumled?
The rest of the post is haphazard enough that it doesn't really move him much up my scumlist, though.

If it's not, holla.

CHAU WE HATH BEEN OUTED. ALAS.

Thanks for the WIFOM.

L-2 is acceptable but L-1 isn't?

I had a bit of a weird vibe from that chau post when I first read it, but I let it go because the rest of her play has been really precise.

This sounds like a lot of spin to me.

TeW felt largely town-neutral to me, and then he posted that, which is a big part of why I placed him as scum-neutral.

I can't top Dragonfly's post 276. Every replacement should be so thorough.

Aw, shucks.

jbern has generally been flying under the radar it seems like.

I agree with this.

This too,

wf's replacement is one to talk about using lurking as a scum indicator.

, but I'd say Deer falls into this category:

I know there have been many replacements and lurkers, but I would say jbern, Te, and NS are all guilty of only making posts when really necessary.

, so, well, actually that's really good posting. I was initially surprised you'd make this distinction after putting it on Spy, because Deer was a rather big lurker too, but it makes some sense from a townie viewpoint. Do you think Deer was also guilty of only posting when necessary?

peanut and Dragonfly have replaced in okay, but they're suffering from their replacements like Spyrex is, I think.

Yeah, that's largely why I chose to share my notes on rz from the viewpoint of someone who wasn't in the game yet.

At that point in time? Yes.

Why was it so at that point in time? Actually, it appears RC has already asked. Don't mind me.

No. Deer deserves it over all of them.

If nika is pretty much caught scum to you why are you voting spy?

If Spy is scum, stuff like this makes me think chau would have a higher chance of being a buddy. Though I like the 2nd above quote, and I'm interested in the response. I like that RC also pointed out the first.

Additionally, if we're talking about a 3:9 setup (which I assume we are) you better be clear that you're assuming the split was 2:1 on the SSSS wagon because otherwise you've approached it backwards.

This game has 11 players. I wouldn't assume too much about the number of scum.

FYI, I'm making posts whenever I feel they are necessary. There's been an activity dropoff recently, that's due to factors beyond my control.

Who is your prime suspect right now?

I'll be the first one to say that Deer didn't comment enough

Don't take credit for that. (Semantics? Probably.)

My main point though is that wf not being pressured seems artifical rather than he was just honestly overlooked by the town.

Good point. I'll have to take some time to look back at that, at some point in the near future. Hold me to these things, because I'm not sure I'll remember them all...

Hmmmm

Didn't catch that; good to note.

That's taken out of context (although you probably realize that).

It is?

I'm

clearly

attacking you for wf's play. I'm

confident

wf is scum. I'm

not certain

he is.

Well, ok. You get off this time.

Like we were saying earlier, I'd go so far as to say there has to be one or two scum between you, Nikanor, and NS, but that's it.

Should you add JB in there? Or is JB just kinda scummy anyway?

The best direction the town could go is to lynch [SpyreX], and the second best is to lynch jbern.

Somewhere in here I wanted to make the point that Deer didn't mention wf during that "wagon." Deer's ISO 20 is a response about wf, but he doesn't actively share his opinions on wf at the time of the wagon. What do you have to say about this, red? You say wf's wagon appeared a bit like he was scum because his scumbuddies were taking too long to jump on, or something. So would Deer fit into the role of wf-scumbuddy in this case? Deer's ISO 21 is goodposting. I may have pointed that out already.

Only scum cares this much about what people think of him.

I rather agree. Peanut's vote on me has me wishy-washy about the slot, though. It's nice to see someone going after me, instead of just discounting rz's actions and some "weird" things I've said from multiple viewpoints.

This is sooooo obviously a statement coming from scum! Why was FA not lynched yesterday? Srsly.

*sigh* There's a lot to think about in this game.

I'm currently rubbing my bearded chin. It's about an inch long, and white. It's quite itchy as well, so I rub it a lot.

Do you hide fish in it?

SpyreX is the next lynch after peanutman.

Thanks for reinforcing my original scum-scale, it makes me feel better about myself.

And in case any of you readers were wondering, I

do

love irony!

Do you also love ironing? I have some that needs to be done. (That's totally

not

an old joke....)

Too much text. I'm not reading the rest of this post. I have what I want.

I can live with this as long as you refer back when directed.


Not sure about Red yet. Both of the replacements seem to be playing really well. I'm willing to look into JB more. There's definitely a lot of "wait I agree with that, but I also agree with this... but wait... I agree with that too" going on in my head as I read, so I want to see more of what Spy and JB have to offer.

Unvote

Also, I'm going

V/LA Friday until Sunday

. Spring break is almost over and I'm going on my actual vacation, which means I'll be away from computer land. Expect catchup then. I may also pop in later tonight.

Everyone, tell me what you didn't care for in this post - I feel I'm responding to maybe a little too much - so then maybe my next posts will be shorter.

[Sucrose]

Oh no, long is good. That was much more concise.

[Nikanor]

A) Where is your evidence for this?
B) I had already voted SSSS at this point, and was just noting that he switched from an OMGUS vote to a popular wagon. It wasn't being used to further my case, as far as I remember.

A) I don't need evidence; I have the power of righteousness on my side!
Also, only newbtown and scum ever say that OMGUS is a tell. Are you newbtown, jb?
B) You said he was OMGUSing. That's a good enough scumtell for me to want to lynch you.

[jbernier93]

A) Where is your evidence for this?
B) I had already voted SSSS at this point, and was just noting that he switched from an OMGUS vote to a popular wagon. It wasn't being used to further my case, as far as I remember.

A) I don't need evidence; I have the power of righteousness on my side!
Also, only newbtown and scum ever say that OMGUS is a tell. Are you newbtown, jb?
B) You said he was OMGUSing. That's a good enough scumtell for me to want to lynch you.

No, I am not noobtown, but since when do only scum call out players on OMGUSing? Seriously, I mean I expect to be called scummy several times per game, but not for crap like this!
And you still didn't explain the active lurking thing.

[Nikanor]

since when do only scum call out players on OMGUSing? Seriously, I mean I expect to be called scummy several times per game, but not for crap like this!

It's been only scum calling other players out on OMGUSing ever since town has stopped doing it.

And you still didn't explain the active lurking thing.

It's not scumhunting, so it's active lurking.

[jbernier93]

since when do only scum call out players on OMGUSing? Seriously, I mean I expect to be called scummy several times per game, but not for crap like this!

It's been only scum calling other players out on OMGUSing ever since town has stopped doing it.

And you still didn't explain the active lurking thing.

It's not scumhunting, so it's active lurking.

A) That's really horrible circular logic... :/
B) Uhm, that's not really what my definition of active lurking is. First of all, it is impossible for every single post in the game to be totally scumhunting. Secondly, I would define active lurking as "posting frequently enough to provide an illusion of content where there is none." Your Mileage May Vary, but I would not consider my actions active lurking. :/

FYI, I'm making posts whenever I feel they are necessary. There's been an activity dropoff recently, that's due to factors beyond my control.

Who is your prime suspect right now?.

That would be the player I'm voting... Deer was scummy and RC hasn't done anything townie enough to make me move my vote.

[chauchaudotcom]

First off. I hate you all. I am as good as dead tonight. Damn lists.

That's a rhetorical question, correct?

Yep.

I get wary when people introduce a possibility of a someoneelse-them scum team, because if it's true, it makes it more far-fetched and it feels like a possible bus.

I'm not bussing spy. I'm buddying =D!

May I ask why?

L-1 means that you're pretty much ready to lynch them, that you're willing to put them in a situation where they could potentially be quick lynched by other scum and end the day. I was still in the process of getting reads on other people so I wasn't quite ready to make such a commitment.

I'll be the first one to say that Deer didn't comment enough about the game and the majority of the players as a whole, but it's unfair to classify him as "only having a remote interest in rzhang", when that was clearly not the case. His top suspect was rzhang, but he rightfully pressured NS and SSSS to explain themselves at multiple points in the game.

Fair enough. I'm beginning to think I may be tunneling Deer a bit.

So you would say Spyrex and Dragonfly are frustratingly suspicious?

At the point when I made that statement I was suspicious of Spy (because of wf) but had a null-town read on Dragon (because of rz). Now, since time has passed, I get a town read from Spy from his posts. He's posts may be shorter and full of sarcasm but he does present good content and seems to be scum-hunting. I believed RZ was town and genuine in his posts during the d1 fiasco. And since Dragon + RZ have the same role, I put Dragon in my town bucket.

My main point though is that wf not being pressured seems artifical rather than he was just honestly overlooked by the town.

How do you pressure someone who has disappeared? That's essentially a waste of time. And I do believe at that time I was asking wf questions (along w/ others) and fingers were being pointed in his direction. Would you not call that an attempt to pressure? But since wf didn't exactly come back to comment on anything it's rather difficult to pursue any further until replacement right?

Deer is more scummy than NS or rzhang? Back this up.

You can look at my reasoning for my vote on Deer, I think I made it pretty clear. His was pretty set on rz all day but his switch to SSSS was too convenient and too abrupt. But his complete avoidance of this game d2 is what threw me over the most.

As for rz, I felt he was frustrated town from the beginning. And NS? Honestly. He's just too absurd for me to believe he's scum. ESPECIALLY his case on JB. JB = scum because of gut? Really? Scum have all night and all day to think about cases to push d2. Plus they get the added bonus of discussing with their buddy (or buddies) =/ To fall back on jb being scum because of gut? It's just too obvious of a fail.

However, I'll admit his last post (w/ all the reads on people) really made me facepalm. But I was waiting on his response to all my questions first. (He better not flake else I'm going to rage!!!)

Also, a heads up for people. I have a lot of studying/essays to do this weekend so I may be a bit busy.

Mod: When's the deadline?