Open 201 v2.0 ~ F&I Mafia ~ Game Over

[Gheb]

Sorry been away over the weekend with no access. Gonna read up and respond to stuff later today x_x

[yawetag]

I'm still reading, too. It's hard to piece everything together with all the replacements, but I'm working through it.

Someone needs to make a page similar to the multi-isolation, but where you can say "make all of X's posts look like it was written by Y"

[farside22]

KMD: What is the difference in your view between Stat and Max as far as scummy non-contributive post?

[Max]

There's no proof that you've done an ISO on anyone, and just reading someone's posts while not sharing your thoughts on their actions with the rest of the town isn't going to help anyone. THEN you're going to go through and analyze the thread properly and make a case? On who? For what? So many unanswered questions, more spring up, and you've effectively added nothing to the conversation.

Why would I? Anybody else can do the precise same thing this comes to me as an odd thing to ask.

A) The whole point of the game is mistrust, I have read players in ISO, read farside as town in a few games (playing along side her). I've never seen her as scum but she's acting differently.
B) Surely the fact I picked the "two most pro-town players" surely shows that I've read the game. Anybody can go along with a bandwagon. (Think about it, rearrange everyone's arguments place them in with quotes, rinse and repeat till they get lynched) I would argue that going along with the opinions that everyone shares is scummier than bringing new ones to the fold.
C) Reading games in ISO helps you find interesting posts that you dislike. Reading it in context results in seeing any reason why the posts have been made.

Can you please elaborate?

Farside follows a line of questioning that push players. So far of what I've read she hasn't been doing so, quite a few of the questions I've read so far pretty much been weaker than I believe she's capable of, the "Scum can hide" thing as well didn't seem to be what town-farside22 would say.

Startransmission pretty much dislike that post 2 (ISO), it seems a bit desperate, Gheb hasn't been scummy in any regard beyond how I normally see him play. He may be dangerous due to his similarity between town and scum play but I don't think he's scum this time.

What game are you reading? Seriously you have got to be joking since I have been more vocal, question and commenting then most (except kmd). I took a couple of days away from here do to the lacey/me blow out and with word that CSL was looking to mod kill me I had to get that worked out to find out why.

It's not that you are being less vocal. It's the way you are questioning players it doesn't sit right with me from what I've seen.

Has anyone seen JacobSavage slaughtering logic:

More a reaction tester, best way to pull someone apart when they are consistent, is to apply a small amount of pressure, and see how they react. Simples

Now I tried seeing what the reaction was like to this apparent pressure... and whether this was in a wave of Gheb attack. I didn't really find any pressure at all his post saying:

"Top Two Suspects..." etc.

Was the only evidence I got to show pressure. Pressure requires at least a case based on...

something

. Furthermore when you contrast this with earlier post by JS:

"I love it how both Me and Gheb think that Spring is scum and vote for him at around PS 160 ish and then suddenly: <SNIP> "... right so you don't find him scummy here yet two gheb posts later which were pretty much defending himself you think he's scum. I don't like that.

Jacob continues with the somewhat weak logical capabilities as far as I have read backwards. Not liking him at all.

[farside22]

Farside follows a line of questioning that push players. So far of what I've read she hasn't been doing so, quite a few of the questions I've read so far pretty much been weaker than I believe she's capable of, the "Scum can hide" thing as well didn't seem to be what town-farside22 would say.

How is it you find my questions not to be pushing players? How many questions would you expect from me from what you recall of my last play compared to here?
Finally town farside (me) would and did just say "scum can hide things" because they can and do. Do you find this comment false?

[Max]

No I find it anti-farside. I just, from past readings of games. Believe you wouldn't say that. I won't use it as a case against you, but I would say that it doesn't feel right (from you)

[The Quintastic One]

B) Surely the fact I picked the "two most pro-town players" surely shows that I've read the game. Anybody can go along with a bandwagon. (Think about it, rearrange everyone's arguments place them in with quotes, rinse and repeat till they get lynched) I would argue that going along with the opinions that everyone shares is scummier than bringing new ones to the fold.

And considering this, is the only reason I can think you're motivations are pro-town. But it's a mixed bag. It's pro-town because you're not just going with the flow and you're trying to come up with your own conclusions, even if it means going after a lynch that isn't going to happen just because Farside isn't acting like Farside. But it's scummy in the fact that it's severely distracting, at least from my perspective. Since KMD convinced me of Lacey's allegiance, and I think Farside is pro-town, going after them in MY mind is distracting away from actual scumhunting. So it's very hard for me to decipher what to think about your second point.

[startransmission]

@Star
No I disagree with you since Spring showed signs of active lurking. Spring was obviously reading up because of this post:

Farside, what do you feel about the KMD/Lacey deal? It's very curious to me that you would still continue you case on her after it happened because I think something like that is very likely to polarize town's read on her.

I think she's been giving off very strong scum vibe before the trade offer, but has gone back to more or less neutral with her position on Kmd. And think Kmd looks the more scummy for it so it's curious to me that you would pursue her so.

Spring lukring is anti town. This post is scummy though. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=200 in post 211 was made

after the Lacey issue was dropped and KMD stated: Lacey was town and Farside wanted to drop the argument

This post is very, very scummy because does feel like Spring wanted to backtrack and reignite the argument all over again. To me, this reads as active lurking because Spring showed that: She's been reading in the time where she hasn't posted.

First of all I can see your point about the active lurking, but I don't find it all that compelling. Spring did post occasionally, and those posts did demonstrate some clue as to what was going on.

I don't want to get hung up on defending Spring, as there really is no defending her. It's absolutely true that her actions were anti-town. My issue is that her anti-town behavior is not the scummiest thing going on today, and her lynch would absolutely be a policy lynch. With the other things going on, that seems like a pretty weak wagon. Not only that, but an opportunistic wagon.

As far as her going back to Lacey. Just because the general consensus was that Lacey was likely town and the issue was mostly dropped doesn't mean it's scummy for Spring to still think it's something to be looked into. Though, frustratingly, I get the impression that she was simply skimming and parroting old arguments without being aware that the momentum had shifted. Again, Spring is a tough broad to defend.

[CSL]

As per one of mith's recent posts (IMM), this place will be locked in a few weeks. I don't know how this transition will work out, but starting Day 2, you will have shorter deadlines. If this migration would've started later, I wouldn't have a problem. I am truly sorry for any inconveniences this may cause you. I hate having short deadlines because of the disaster it brought to version 1.0 of this game, but I'd like to get this done BEFORE the move.

Expect a votecount shortly. I think nothing has changed.

[Sando]

How can you say that it is tough to defend the scumminess of your slot, yet the only reason to lynch it is policy?

[DTMaster]

@Star
1. "coughs"coughs" While your defense is amiable, your offense is lacking. Might I ask is: If Spring wasn't a good wagon due to your "policy" defense, how was scummier then spring at the time?

2. So you agree with me that: Spring = anti-town posting, showed signs of active lurking and generally contributing nothing. I don't find these reasons weak, good sir. How ever this digresses into circular theory, blah blah arguments. Seriously

we have arguments. You agreed with: I see your point of view in your recent post

. I dislike your policy stance.

@Max
1. Posts made in Iso and post made in context can have different meaning.

2. I like your posts very much. For farside, can you give a meta link to a town-farside game that demonstrates your point? From what I seen though, Farside shown the same thing in the old 201 before she replaced in again as scum.

@TQO
Just because someone disagrees with you, doesn't mean they are scum/backtracking. It is a pitfall to have confirmed players this early in the game. You must be critical, and hone that gut read/logical deductions.

Unvote

@Myself
Reread Gheb in regards to my last post.

[yellowbunny]

Farside follows a line of questioning that push players. So far of what I've read she hasn't been doing so, quite a few of the questions I've read so far pretty much been weaker than I believe she's capable of, the "Scum can hide" thing as well didn't seem to be what town-farside22 would say.

I'd hardly say that (at least with the Lacey issue) that Farside has been pulling any punches. Also, after Lacey replacing out, its not unreasonable to expect Farside to cool things down a bit. Did you consider these things at all in your analysis of her play?

Startransmission pretty much dislike that post 2 (ISO), it seems a bit desperate, Gheb hasn't been scummy in any regard beyond how I normally see him play. He may be dangerous due to his similarity between town and scum play but I don't think he's scum this time.

What do you think of the apparent lies Gheb has been caught in? I do not see how you can say that is not scummy.

[Gheb]

1.) How have I been "lying"? I might not've been the first player to ever vote spring lullaby in this game but I was the first to present an actual reason. Maybe somebody randomly voted her before I did but I didn't take that into account. It's certainly not a lie because of that.

2.) I might not've been the first to call Lacey town but I was the most vocal about it. At that time I was convinced I was pretty much the only one against lynching her because literally half the game jumped on her wagon for weak reasons (or none at all) and nobody seemed to mind. You can't seriously say I've not been vocal because I have definitely switched the momentum from the Lacey wagon to the spring wagon (which I still think is legit btw) against the opinion of about 50% of the players here.

3.) I still don't see the "contradiction". I fosed Lacey way back in the beginning because she was "backpedaling" us into the RVS - except that I didn't use the term "backpedaling" in that argument. I later saw farside use that term and I liked it so I quoted it to reinforce my argument. Where's the contradiction?

4.) I - unlike most other players in this game - have

not

been on the spring wagon because she was lurking. I originally pressure voted her and asked her a bunch of questions in hopes of getting some info. Not only did she not answer the question but she

actively refused to answer them

. This is why I kept my vote on her whereas the rest of the game wagoned her all the way down to like L-2 or L-3 for lurking. But when I do it (which I didn't actually do) it suddenly becomes suspicious?

5.) I was suspicious of GoroHonda because he randomly buddied me up. I know from experience that scum (especially newbie scum) likes to be buddy up townies. I felt that Goro was trying to do the same to me so he can kill me during the night phase and draw the "Ha! I told you!" card the next day to look credible.

I hope this answers your questions / accusations. If I missed anything let me know.

[Max]

1. Posts made in Iso and post made in context can have different meaning.

Which is why I said I'd read both.

Did you consider these things at all in your analysis of her play?

I didn't really think about the repercussions of it. I was just thinking that it seemed a bit scummy to take your foot of the pedal like that.

Gheb hasn't been caught lying just exaggerating. People do that lots.

Vote: JacobSavage

I meant to do that last post but I'll add it now.

[yellowbunny]

5.) I was suspicious of GoroHonda because he randomly buddied me up. I know from experience that scum (especially newbie scum) likes to be buddy up townies. I felt that Goro was trying to do the same to me so he can kill me during the night phase and draw the "Ha! I told you!" card the next day to look credible.

I fail to see how Goro was buddying you, aside from saying he had a town read of you. Was there something else he did that I am missing? Also, you did not address my question about him also listing KMD as pro-town.

Also, I notice you are ignoring the points I raised about you speculating on scum strats.

Gheb hasn't been caught lying just exaggerating. People do that lots.

I don't see how its just exaggerating..but regardless, isn't twisting the truth (either through lying or exaggerating) anti-town behavior?

[Max]

I don't see how its just exaggerating..but regardless, isn't twisting the truth (either through lying or exaggerating) anti-town behavior?

Manipulating the truth is often, but not always anti-town.

[CSL]

Flavor

TheLonging stands still. Is he a stone? He needs to step it up soon, or he'll be dropped.

Meanwhile, the podium lights turn red. Time's almost up!

The

6

days until deadline votecount

kmd4390 (L-7)
Max (L-7)
farside22 (L-7)
Sando (L-7)
The Quintastic One (L-7)
Gheb (L-4) The Quintastic One, farside22, startransmission ~
startransmission (L-5) Gheb,

TheLonging,

kmd4390
DTMaster (L-7)
yellowbunny (L-7)
yawetag (L-6) Sando

TheLonging

(L-7)
JacobSavage (L-6) Max

Not voting: Everyone else

With 12 alive, 7 will lynch

Deadline: Monday, March 29th, 2010. 8pm EST.

~ indicates the wagon that will resolve at deadline
A player represented with a strikethrough is being replaced. Any votes on them are null. Their votes are null too...

[Sando]

I was suspicious of GoroHonda because he randomly buddied me up.

No, that was just tacked on to your suspicions:

I'd like to place a huge FoS @ Goro for his attempts to disctract, stall and his potentially misleading list. Him randomly buddying me in that list is also noted.

and your addendum:

dodging questions, avoiding discussion, not been hunting scum and have been rather disctracting overall

[Gheb]

What's your point? You basically just said that I'm right.

@yellow

1.) I have not ignored or intentionally skipped any of your questions but I might've missed some while rereading. The "scum strats" thing ... what's the problem with that? When I'm scumhunting I'm trying to see things from a scumbag's angle so I can see how they would play in that situation. Then I'm looking at which player fits that category. I don't see how that's a problem

2.) I considered it buddying because he never explained where the town vibe comes from - the only way he could be sure about it is if he's mafia himself and knows I'm actually town.

3.) See that's the problem: You basically say "Gheb's twisting facts and thus MUST be anti-town". This is not the case. First of all I'm not "twisting facts" - I'm merely stating things from my point of view. You always try to find some malicious intent behind it, in some cases behind the smallest matter. I mean there are many ways to look at it: I could've worded it poorly, I could've just had a different opinion on it or I could've tried to see how people would react to my responses. But of course you're tunneling the idea that I HAVE to be scum so hard that you don't even see these other interpretations anymore.

[Gheb]

Also I realize that just now we're getting into another such discussion where scum can safely stay out of the spotlight.

[The Quintastic One]

What's your point? You basically just said that I'm right.

@yellow

1.) I have not ignored or intentionally skipped any of your questions but I might've missed some while rereading. The "scum strats" thing ... what's the problem with that? When I'm scumhunting I'm trying to see things from a scumbag's angle so I can see how they would play in that situation. Then I'm looking at which player fits that category. I don't see how that's a problem

Except for the fact that this behavior makes you look scummy by definition. Which if you are town, you're just distracting from the lynching of actual scum. So also, acting scummy to try and find scummy is pretty much by definition anti-town play. So the strategy itself isn't a scumtell, but the logic is flawed.

3.) See that's the problem: You basically say "Gheb's twisting facts and thus MUST be anti-town". This is not the case. First of all I'm not "twisting facts" - I'm merely stating things from my point of view. You always try to find some malicious intent behind it, in some cases behind the smallest matter. I mean there are many ways to look at it: I could've worded it poorly, I could've just had a different opinion on it or I could've tried to see how people would react to my responses. But of course you're tunneling the idea that I HAVE to be scum so hard that you don't even see these other interpretations anymore.

I know that this was directed at Yellowbunny but from my perspective we're just trying to find scum. Nobodies really laid out a solid post defining why Jacob Savage is a good target, and the rest of the town wants to lynch lurkers. I do too, but I need to know that you are the wrong lynch before I look elsewhere. I don't like lies or exaggerations, but I don't have any further questions for you since it's 2AM in the morning and I'm really just posting for the sake of posting. So uhm, how about you address my point above and we'll go from there tomorrow? lol.

[farside22]

Mod: Prod Kmd

We are getting close to deadline people. I think we should list our top 3 scum suspects and state why. Too many people are not being vocal.

As for Gheb. I'm not sure what to think about your reasoning. I don't like the fact 2 people defended you before you talked about your reasoning either.

My top 3 suspects

Gheb for those lies talk about earlier
Max: I think the most recent read and his comment there after doesn't say much of anything. His reasoning for finding me scummy is meta but he didn't answer my questions when I confront his "meta".
Stat: This is the last one I would lynch of my top 3 suspects. I didn't like his catch up post. Too many neutrals which is a big scum tell. He's been more defending himself then really scum hunting but a few people who are pushing this wagon feel scummy.

[JacobSavage]

Jacob continues with the somewhat weak logical capabilities as far as I have read backwards. Not liking him at all.

Not weak logical capabilities, just bent ones

[Gheb]

@TQO

Sorry but I don't understand what you're referring to when you say that "this behaivour" is anti-town.

Which

behaviour is anti-town? Trying to get into the mindset of a scumbag to hunt them? How is it scummy? Why is it scummy

by definition

?

@Farside

I would've answered it earlier but I was away over the weekend so I couldn't check the thread to respond right away.

[Kmd4390]

I'll post tonight. Sorry I've been away.