Mini 934 - Troubles at Smiths&Catharts (Game Over!)

[Locke Lamora]

Sorry for lack of posting, will have a post up this evening by the latest.

[Col.Cathart]

Votecount 1.13

With 12 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

If you'll encounter any kind of mistake in my vote count - please point it out.

TheCheshireCat (5):

Inquisitor JL, Zorblag, Thor665, CSL, Kthxbye

(Warning: L-2)

Kthxbye (3): Henry Hathaway, RayFrost, Locke Lamora,
RayFrost (2): Pomegranate, Sotty7
Zorblag (1): TheCheshireCat
CSL (1): Copper

not voting: none

current deadline is: 26.02.2010 7PM GMT +1
Countdown

Deadline in 4 days (+ 3,5 hours)

Still looking for 2 replacements.

[Locke Lamora]

Kthxbye: I already clarified my vote. I think your vote on TCC is scummy because you over-justified it. There were plenty of good reasons to vote TCC, so why pad out the case with 'we need a flip'? That indicates concern that the vote is somehow unjustified on the basis of the rest of the reasoning, which I think is more likely to be the attitude of scum hopping onto a wagon.

Locke's subsequent unvote of TCC shows that he certainly didn't think TCC was objectively the most scummy, and it's interesting that Locke said "Well, of course there's no way anyone can defend TCC, but pointing out that votes might actually result in a lynch - now that's scummy." Add that to the long-standing suspicion on Ythan and I would have no qualms lynching this slot.

Locke's unvote of TCC shows that he saw Kthxbye's vote on the wagon and alarm bells were set ringing by the fact that Kthxbye felt the need to over-justify the case on a terrible player. 'We need a flip' could be said about any D1 lynch ever.

Pomegranate is still terrible; in fact, she's got worse since I questioned her about her Ray-meta. I haven't seen anything that justifies her approach to that situation and she doesn't appear to have anything else to say on the subject or, in fact, the game as a whole, other than some questions for HH.

CSL is hard to comment on other than to say he's being intensely anti-town. Still no other justification for his TCC vote other than smilies and he's now apparently sure that TCC is scum trying to get out of a lynch. I would like CSL to give his views on pretty much everyone, but especially TCC and those on the Kthxbye wagon.

[Col.Cathart]

Charter replaces Inquisitor JL. Thanks, charter!

[Locke Lamora]

Mod: you have Copper voting twice. I think he's only voting for CSL.

<waves hand> You saw nothing - Cathart

[charter]

Let me try and read up, I hope I can do it by tonight.

[charter]

Ok, I started reading the thread, but Ythan annoyed the shit out of me and I couldn't read his crap. I made a big post saying as much, but I see he was replaced, so I'm going to pick up from that point.

[Pomegranate]

Oh, hi Charter!

Been busy recently, will get a post up.

[charter]

Ok, I can't really understand your posts Zorblag, can you give like a plain english summary at the bottom of long ones? 534 I got the gist of, correct pro town theory in there.

544, Scumhunting by Ray. Amazing.
Thor looks pretty town.
Copper looks really scummy. Doubly so with trying to lynch Rayfrost because of a minor rules violation. Looks like he's trying to push a lynch on someone other than his scumbuddy. Then switches with a useless vote on the CSL.
TCC replacing out is typical of newbscum.

I'm trying to decide who is the scummiest out of Kthxbye, TCC, and Copper. I'm really not seeing any way that Copper and TCC aren't scumbuddies. My predecessor was voting TCC, so I'll just leave it on him.

If I missed something terribly important, let me know.

[Copper]

Have any of the heads of your hydra had experience playing with CSL? Troll no minds the vote you be casting but Troll be curious if it be cast with any knowledge of his meta.

Yes, but, to be honest, he hasn't exactly posted much verifying this meta. As a matter of fact, I happen to know CSL is actually quite active, so for him to coast on the TCC lynch as though it was an obvious choice (to answer your other concern) is quite alarming in contrast to your more level-headed, documented approach.

Your rationale is understandable, albeit debatable. Given the fact that TCC basically left the website (she's being replaced in her other games), I wouldn't say it's as easy to say she is lurking scum here.

This commentary is far too wide catching and general for my taste. That's why I asked you who you found scummy for this. You ought to be willing to clarify who the tell has picked up on now that you have discussed it. Otherwise this looks a touch mudsling-ingy (proper Enlish is gold!).

I would say the issue is more with Inquisitor, CSL, and Kthx, as has been alluded to.

At this point, I'm not going to take my vote off TCC. Even though I questioned CSL above, I have been burnt too many times by being suspicious of someone, them replacing out, moving on to give the replacement a chance, only to find out I was right to begin with and the initial suspicion was correct. TCC is still my number one lynch for today, followed by LL for his jumping on my wagon then disappearing and letting others debate it. HH takes third place for scummiest till He/she decides to build a real case not based on magical strategy.

I think I can understand this. I just feel like I'm the only person here who see TCC for what I would suspect she really is. A disinterested townie who joined this website thinking it would be a lot of action and entertainment, but left with the impression that it's just a bunch of people arguing with each other.

I'm not going to deny that TCC has came under my suspicions at one point or another, but that was before she effectively left this website. When you have players like charter and CSL saying this means she's obvious scum, well, that's not exactly easy to swallow.

CSL is hard to comment on other than to say he's being intensely anti-town. Still no other justification for his TCC vote other than smilies and he's now apparently sure that TCC is scum trying to get out of a lynch. I would like CSL to give his views on pretty much everyone, but especially TCC and those on the Kthxbye wagon.

Agreed. What makes it doubly frustrating is how the last time I played with CSL, he had a very feisty and aggressive nature.

If I missed something terribly important, let me know.

Did you want to add anything about the player you replaced?

[Copper]

EBWOP:

I would say the issue is more with Inquisitor, CSL, and Kthx, as has been alluded to.

While this is not my post, I feel safe in assuming that Inquisitor's name is a typo and that Locke's was intended.

[charter]

I read like the first five pages, tore my hair out and skipped to where Ythan was replaced (page 20 or so). I literally have no idea where my predecessor stands on anything, other than I agree with him that TCC is scum.

[Sotty7]

Locke's unvote of TCC shows that he saw Kthxbye's vote on the wagon and alarm bells were set ringing by the fact that Kthxbye felt the need to over-justify the case on a terrible player. 'We need a flip' could be said about any D1 lynch ever.

Don't you think you are over simplifying this? Do you not agree that this day is a lot bigger than what really needed to be? I really think Ythan's posting here has bogged day one down and could be the reason were needing a lot of replacements. But that really is another issue altogether. You say kthnx padded his case but you only mention the whole “need a flip” thing as scummy. Is there any other parts of the case that bother you?

I agree with your Pom assessment, I have on many occasions tried to question her and draw her out but she doesn't appear to be interested. Her pressure has focused mostly on lurkers which, considering her lack of content is getting laughable. In fact,

Unvote, Vote: Pom

I really think she is very likely scum because I don't see any attempt at scum hunting outside her push on Ray. Oh and look a post promising content from Pom. I won't hold my breath.

I think I can understand this. I just feel like I'm the only person here who see TCC for what I would suspect she really is. A disinterested townie who joined this website thinking it would be a lot of action and entertainment, but left with the impression that it's just a bunch of people arguing with each other.

I'm not going to deny that TCC has came under my suspicions at one point or another, but that was before she effectively left this website. When you have players like charter and CSL saying this means she's obvious scum, well, that's not exactly easy to swallow.

You are not the only person to think this, I'm also on this wagon. I'm feeling TCC town and have since her wagon built.

Charter, you could ISO your replacement. (Also welcome to the game)

As for CSL I have also had experience playing with him and he is hyper active and aggressive as a player so this non play is completely off ball. My theory is that his sig was about only modding games and not playing any more. He only got into this one by cross replacing with CC. So I don't think he really cares for playing and his lack of commitment pretty much shows that. I can't read him off the posts he has made so far so it is really annoying.

[Col.Cathart]

Activity check in progress.

[Thor665]

I really think [Pom] is very likely scum because I don't see any attempt at scum hunting outside her push on Ray. Oh and look a post promising content from Pom. I won't hold my breath....
...You are not the only person to think this, I'm also on this wagon. I'm feeling TCC town and have since her wagon built.

Do I take it you draw the difference between the two because you read TCC as lurking and Pom as active lurking? Is there anything more/less to the distinction?

[Locke Lamora]

I agree that Ythan's posting is highly unnecessary and has made this day much longer than it needs to be. I also agree that we need to lynch someone today. I don't think that changes the fact that 'we need a flip' is a As for the rest of Kthxbye's post, TCC's 533 was terrible and with his posting history in the game, I don't have any problems with him voting for the other reasons he stated. That's why I'm doubting his motivation in adding that extra reason. I don't think it's not true, I just think someone who was focused on TCC being scummy wouldn't add it.

I would also be very happy with a Pomegranate lynch. I don't know whether starting a wagon this late in the day is going to get it done, though.

[Col.Cathart]

Prodding RayFrost. That's his second prod.

Also it's really weird, that whenever I check the activity I never have more than 1 player to prod but there are at least several more sliding into 'almost there' category...

Since this is the case today as well, expect another activity check (and votecount if you'll reach next page/there will be some serious voting today) tomorrow.

Oh, and btw.

Deadline in 3 days

[Sotty7]

I really think [Pom] is very likely scum because I don't see any attempt at scum hunting outside her push on Ray. Oh and look a post promising content from Pom. I won't hold my breath....
...You are not the only person to think this, I'm also on this wagon. I'm feeling TCC town and have since her wagon built.

Do I take it you draw the difference between the two because you read TCC as lurking and Pom as active lurking? Is there anything more/less to the distinction?

Pretty much yeah. Pom is pretending to scum hunt without actually providing anything of real use. I have asked her opinions a couple of times and nothing has resulted from it. I'm finding her really fake and scummy.

The difference with TCC is that I got a strong newb read off her and her replacing out/lurking isn't really telling to a newbie alignment. The only thing that I don't like about her is the smiles thing.

Locke you can always switch your vote with me and see if others are willing to come. If not you can always switch back.

[Thor665]

I'm game to play the Pom wagon. Come aboard people, it's fresh, new, and has on-board tea service and massage parlor.

Unvote: TheCheshireCat
Vote: Pomegranate

I've been mildly swayed by the commentary about how TCC got so big, and I'm really not a fan of CSL's vote on her which makes me feel skeevy by sheer association and I'm not sure how I feel about Charter's entry and maintaining of vote. I'm still not liking the Scrambles/Hathaway slot but I have to admit I'm having trouble reading the newb/scum energy there. I also am not a fan of the Ray wagon and could easily accept his odd meta shift was seen as an easy option by scum to try to lynch someone - so in that regards Pom is as tasty as her namesake.

The difference with TCC is that I got a strong newb read off her and her replacing out/lurking isn't really telling to a newbie alignment.

What do you then think of Charter's stated opinion in that regard?

[Kthxbye]

I'm pretty sure answering questions and clarifying things when asked to do so is not a scum tell. This why I think the wagon on me is bunk. If ya'll don't see it that way, well, lynch me for it.

My opinion on Pom: She's lurky, BUT same could be said for me. I'm quickly losing interest in this game. I do have to say the point about her actively lurking and not really pushing out her opinions on active players is justified.

My opinion on RF: I really don't see much scummy about him. I think it's mostly gut, but he just seems like one of those players that tries (and often succeeds) to rile people up with his post to gauge their reaction. It's a valid way to scumhunt IMO.

My opinion on LL: Slightly scummy for taking something that's not a scum-tell and trying to get the wagon rolling right after RF made a huge post about it. I think compared to the other very valid cases on others out there, me "over justifying" my vote is a tad on the weak side. Not to mention my earlier read on Ythan.

My opinion on TCC: I stand by my vote on her. For all I know TCC could have just been an alt. She could have not liked this game as scum or as town. I don't believe in giving replacements a free pass from their predecessors (at least not anymore) and I would prefer her lynch over anyone else at this point.

That being said, CSL's predecessors weren't the towniest players either, and Ythan never made much sense.

LL: do you think RF and your case on me is stronger than the other more recent cases on Pom, CSL, and TCC?
If you had to pick a singular point in your case on me as the one that makes me look the scummiest, which would it be?
Do you think my suspicions on your predecessor (Ythan) were valid?

Thor: If your vote could determine the lynch in your next post, who do you feel most likely will flip scum?

HH: What are your thoughts on the ideas being thrown around about Pom and CSL?

charter: One of the points in your very small, opinionated, and unreferenced case on copper is that he switches with a useless vote for CSL. You then proceed to vote him in what I see as an equally useless vote. Care to elaborate how this is a scum-tell for him but not one for you? Would you also consider this action a scum-tell for Sotty's recent switch? Also, would you care to at least give post numbers of coppers that back up your accusations of him?

Oh, and btw, I STILL think we need a lynch and thus a flip very soon. In fact, I'm willing to lynch Pom, LL, and TCC right now. TCC I've already talked about, Pom because I can see the case on her and agree with it enough that I'm willing to vote her to end this day, and LL because I still stand by my reasons for thinking Ythan was scummy and do not think LL has done much to change my opinion of that role. I only switched to TCC because of the more blatant scumminess vs. a more overt scum-read of Ythan.

[Copper]

I'm worried about the number of people still on TCC's wagon. Zorblag, while your initial justification was sound enough, I would like for you to either re-justify why TCC is still superior to all other lynches or switch. Kthnx, I've given my reasons on why TCC's actions and the general gameflow suggest that she is town, and your confirming of the vote has completely ignored my speculation and offers no real answer as to why TCC is the MOST anti-town noncontributor besides "she was my first and I have been burned by sometimes changing my mind". Charter has gone so far as to say that both TCC and I must be scumbuddies for my arguing that she is town - while simultaneously ignoring my arguments on why I think that. If anyone still wants to lynch TCC, then I want to hear your intrepretation of events. Are there busing scum on her wagon - and if so, what slots? If there are no busing scum, then how did her wagon swell with such speed?

And this recent rush on to Pomegrante has left a terrible taste in my mouth. They are valid points - but the fact that this town seems to be ready for a new wagon makes me wonder why everyone is tip-toeing around CSL so carefully. Scrambles left no great pro-town legacy, and CSL's net contribution was an L-2 vote on TCC because where he comes from, smilies are a scumtell. As I've said previously, looking at the gameflow makes this a scummy spot to sit, it's a lacking justification, and - in contrast to previous meta experience - CSL has not returned to say anything more, despite promises to do so. Sotty and Thor, what exactly makes Pomegrante a better lynch than CSL? This is particularly valid in light of the fact that Sotty agrees with the idea of TCC being town, which gives CSL's vote a highly sensible scum context to go along with it's terrible justification, and Thor has

specifically

mentioned feeling 'skeevy' about CSL's vote on TCC but for whatever reason doesn't discuss the idea of lynching him.

[Thor665]

Thor: If your vote could determine the lynch in your next post, who do you feel most likely will flip scum?

The only sane way to answer this is by saying 'Pom, so that's why my vote is on her'

In a more general sense I feel like I have too many suspects and not enough votes. I'm legitimately buying into Copper's (and maybe Sotty's? I think someone else discussed it as well) concept as far as TCC and that wagon goes. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say I'm against the TCC wagon but I am leery about it and I don't like the feel of a couple of the votes there. I'm unlikely to return to this wagon on the merits of my previous case, and would need something new to shift me, so if you're wondering if I'm still a potential shift back to that wagon my answer is 'not without new evidence' as I actually am fond of the Pom vote because I feel the Ray wagon move was fairly equal to the Zorblag/disappear vote from TCC and the active lurking charge has some relative meat to it.

I only switched to TCC because of the more blatant scumminess vs. a more overt scum-read of Ythan.

Either you or I have an incorrect definition of overt and how it relates to blatant. Could you re-state this using different language?

[Thor665]

Sotty and Thor, what exactly makes Pomegrante a better lynch than CSL? This is particularly valid in light of the fact that Sotty agrees with the idea of TCC being town, which gives CSL's vote a highly sensible scum context to go along with it's terrible justification, and Thor has

specifically

mentioned feeling 'skeevy' about CSL's vote on TCC but for whatever reason doesn't discuss the idea of lynching him.

Quite frankly I'm not on that vote yet due to his lurking (story of the thread).

I'm a bit of an anal dweeb when it comes to this sort of thing, but I really like to get other players talking so I can get a feel for what their logic is and where they're coming from.

Multiple posters who have played with CSL claim he is usually much more post heavy and involved, and at least one or two have noted that judging by his sig line he is overloaded at this particular time.

Therefore my conclusion is this;
1. His lurking is more overtly justified then Pom's.

2. His meta apparently suggests that when/if he does reappear he will be more talkative which will help me get a read on him.

3. Pom has, even when she's been here, been less then forthcoming - so whether her lurking is active or not my ability to get a clearer read on her is doubtful to happen anytime soon.

4. I dislike Pom's Ray push to an equal level I dislike CSL's TCC vote since I feel both showcase poor logic.


Question - if I had instead changed my vote to CSL, as you seem to desire, would you have called that "rushed" as well? Why/why not?

[Thor665]

Scrambles left no great pro-town legacy, and CSL's net contribution was an L-2 vote on TCC because where he comes from, smilies are a scumtell.

Scrambles = Hathaway
CSL = Saijin/SFG

I actually did have to re-check this myself, but I'm happy I've been correct in part of my suspicion on Hathaway.

I'll also deeply apologize for the double post spamminess to see if it gets her to vote me.

[Copper]

I haven't called your vote rushed. Obviously, with our shared distrust of Cheshire's wagon, it's high time for your vote to switch. The phrase rush was not in terms of your specific vote, it was that there was suddenly a lot of people picking her all at once, either with votes or adding her to their 'lynch lists', and, in much of the same vein as TCC's wagon, I'm leery about one light contributor suddenly being gunned for more than worse offenders.

As for justified lurking, I know a least a chunk of Pom's inactivity has been her weekly V/LA and CSL's signature is not regarding being overloaded on games but rather a desire to not play games at all that was only subverted because he cross-replaced with CC. This is a justification that only works for his lurking insofar as it's possible that CSL is avoiding helping the town not because he's scum but because he doesn't care about us at all. If that's the case, that's not exactly a good reason to not lynch CSL.

I will agree that your third point is valid. Pom does have a curt tone that does make it seem like she feels forced to give her opinions.

And thank you for your correction of who replaced who. The site has been sluggish for me so I didn't have a chance to check. That being said, I think the statement 'Saijin and SFG left no great pro-town legacy' is equally valid and the point remains the same.