Left 4 Dead Mafia - Day 6?

[Glork]

Also, having re-read the rules, I disagree with my own earlier comments about Item Grabbing. For some reason I thought every item was inherently one-shot, when that is clearly not the case. So yeah, I'm retarded.

[almightybob]

Is being wrong a scumtell?

(.oN :rewsnA)

Is trying to pass incorrect information off as the truth a scumtell?

(.seY :rewsnA)

[Socrates]

Is being wrong a scumtell?

(.oN :rewsnA)

Is trying to pass incorrect information off as the truth a scumtell?

(.seY :rewsnA)

What makes you think Thatguy was being disingenuous about his reasoning, instead of simply wrong?

[almightybob]

What makes you think Thatguy was being disingenuous about his reasoning, instead of simply wrong?

It's on my secret list.

[Socrates]

You see Bob, If I thought for even a second that you were being serious about that, I would be totally cool with that, but I don't think that. I think you don't have a good response to my question and are resorting to a snarky response in lieu of an answer, which I am not cool with at all.

[almightybob]

How dare you question the authority of my secret list! Just obey and think whatever my secret list tells you to think!







OK no, you're right. It's not on my secret list. I said that to illustrate how straight-up retarded the "secret list" line is.


Regarding the actual question - I think thatguy is being disingenuous because if a certain event is your only reason for voting someone (as it certainly seems to be from isoing thatguy), it is extremely difficult to make a mistake regarding who said that thing.
For example, look at when thatguy casts the vote, in post 189.

Ok, Soc.

I've read the entire thread over

and, yes, regarding post 69, I began to ponder over Ifrinn myself.

So he reads the entire thread (all 8 pages at this stage). You'd think he'd have an even better idea of who said what. But no. He accuses Ifrinn of attempting to push scumbuddies into the item grab in post 69. He's pretty clear that it's post 69 which has prompted this opinion, clearly referring to where Ifrinn suggests we should nominate a few people.

Now look at what Ifrinn says again in 69.

Re: a plan.

Right there, first line of the offending paragraph. If you'd read this even once, it would be obvious that Ifrinn is responding to an idea already proposed by someone else. 30 seconds of checking shows it's Socrates. If you'd "reread the entire thread over" this should be doubly obvious.

But no, to thatguy the concept of choosing who goes in for items was spawned (pun intended) by Ifrinn, and it's a huge enough reason to lay down the vote.


So that is why I think it's disingenuous, rather than a mistake.
Also, remember the Inverse Hanlon's Razor - never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by malice. If we let everyone off every time we catch them because they say "oh soz mistaek" Town will lose every time.

@Thatguy

, since I've shown that your reason for voting Ifrinn is, in fact, a case of mistaken identity, I take it that you'll be voting Socrates now, since this plan business is such an epic scumtell in your eyes? Remember this:

I made it pretty clear I'm not down for the idea of lining people up for a specific item.

Well your man for that is Socrates.

[Anon]

Ill post here tomorrow. Just updated a game and my head hurts.

[The AI Director]

This is not a vote count. Just a line I wanna quote.

Ellis

: My buddy Keith tried camping out on top of a building once. He was shooting crows, but the police were too busy tear gassin' him to ask what he was doin' up there. He screamed for an entire year every single time when he opened his eyes! Oh man! At first it was funny, then it just got sad, but then it got funny again! Oh man!

If you don't laugh, you're dead to me. MODKILLLLZ. J/k. But seriously.

[DizzyIzzyB13]

And Scorates has been consistently opposed to Ifrinn, in his own jerkish, anti-town kinda way.

You see, this is the pot calling the white china black. In what way are the shenanigans I pulled earlier anti-town, Mrs. Active lurker?

Are you still happy with your deathnote vote, Dizzy? How do you feel about his response? What do YOU think if Ifrinn? Who is your biggest scum read outside of those two? Why?

Uh, you proposed a plan that offered no benefit to the town whilst giving scum the identities of everyone who picked up an item (and thus, probably the only pro-town powers we get) and potentially allowing the scum to know what each item does in order that they better plan their future killing strategy. Oh yes, what a wonderfully not-anti-town-at-all plan THAT was.

Keep up. I unvoted DeathNote. I'm not voting for anyone right now. I unvoted when I was V/LA because hanging votes like that can be troublesome when you're not around to remove them, and his response to the pressure applied to him produced a reasonable answer that did not merit a revote.

Ifrinn is producing useful content, opposes anti-town play, is involved and is at the very least appearing to hunt scum. Town read.

My biggest scum read is the most anti-town player so far. Meaning you. Hi.

[DocPotter]

To be fair Dizzy, Socrates plan/idea produced no early town benifit. Day 3, or day 2 if we get more item drops, and I can see it doing some good.
Though if we get a third drop today it becomes more plausable.

Which is the danger of it as presented, and why I'm not sure if it's scummy or not. It's the un-used items re-drop that makes it potentially useful, if the grabee does the claim thing with the power, and the scum might not be able to, or willing to, kill all the grabbers.

Unvote

Time for some iso and thought.

[Starbuck]

Psst Great and Powerful Mods, can you make the front page reflect my entrance into the game?

Kthnxbai.

<3

[Starbuck]

Beginning to Bottom of Page 5

On Amished

Why would you be surprised that your vote on almightbob in CONFIRMATION wouldn't carry over?

On Socrates

He seems a bit crazed about this item grabbing bit. I know it's a game mechanic, but it seems that you are more wrapped up in that then scumhunting. Why so focused on it?

Also it seems that you already need to re-read the rules since the item grabbing mechanic does not work the way that you are trying to allude.

I also don't agree with your wanting the person who receives an item to come out with that fact. That would give scum a target and then we wouldn't learn anything the next day.

On DeathNote

Why do you need a sample town PM? This screams to me that you don't have a town PM.

Also your questioning of whether or not town PRs exist really rubs me the wrong way.

He's either stupid Town helping the scum by ensuring that they have a template for fakeclaiming, or (far more likely in my opinion) he's scum who didn't realise we'd pick up on the significance of him not already having a Town role PM.

Either way, there's absolutely no pro-Town justification for it.

QFT on all of this.

On DizzyIzzyB13

Has voted twice on people without giving reasons. I don't have much experience with him. Is this normal play for Dizzy?

On bv310

I see bv's sticking to him normal way of playing - voting for people without giving reasons, not contributing barely anything.

Finally, a little bit of substance in Posts 107 and 108.

On Ifrinn

DeathNote. Why do you seem to intentionally land yourself in hot water in regard to pm's and such?

You've never played with DeathNote before have you? This isn't a new thing.

On DocPotter

What other reasons could DeathNote be asking for the town PM?

[Glork]

This is not a vote count. Just a line I wanna quote.

Ellis

: My buddy Keith tried camping out on top of a building once. He was shooting crows, but the police were too busy tear gassin' him to ask what he was doin' up there. He screamed for an entire year every single time when he opened his eyes! Oh man! At first it was funny, then it just got sad, but then it got funny again! Oh man!

If you don't laugh, you're dead to me. MODKILLLLZ. J/k. But seriously.

That's cool.

Now, could you please fix the most recent vote count as per this post?


And like Starbuck said, update the playerlist.

*cracks the whip*

DOOONE.


Izzy and DocPotter: I don't understand the rationale behind not having a vote on somebody as of Page TWELVE of a game. Can you seriously not find anybody worth voting for at this stage of the day?

[Charlie]

Almightybob, that's twice now you mentioned the Inverse Hanlon's Razor. I'm curious, how effective is this method when you use it? Success rate?

[almightybob]

I don't know, because it's only recently that I've realised that I've been subconsciously applying it. I suppose I could go back to previous games and look for times when I've used it without realising, but frankly that's a lot of effort. Whereas if I consciously start using it now, I can measure its effectiveness nore clearly.

I've started consciously using it since I heard of the official name for it, and realised the consequences of just applying Hanlon's Razor instead of the Inverse. In Mafia, giving people the benefit of the doubt too often will lead to a scum win. If you catch someone, don't let them off the hook with the "oh oops honest mistake" line.

In RL, Hanlon's Razor is a better way to conduct your life. It's more pleasant and friendly. In Mafia, I prefer the Inverse.

[DeathNote]

@Starbuck- Not answering your question till you catch up more. I have already delivered my response to it.

Does anyone else honestly think I am scummy for my PM request now?

[almightybob]

Does anyone else honestly think I am scummy for my PM request now?

Look at it from my point of view.

DizzyIzzy first drew attention to your request in post 68, page 3.
You immediately acknowledged her vote in post 70.
Ifrinn and myself then both asked why a Townie would need a sample role PM, when they should already have a Town PM. This was in posts 71 and 72 respectively.
You then posted in post 78 some meta excuse about how you made a PM mistake before as Town.
You then posted again in post 88 saying "I tend to just reek of scum".
thatguy then joined the wagon in post 89, and Charlie in post 99.
You then grabbed for the Boomer Bile in post 121, and then brought up an old question about Dr Cyanide's post in 124.
Then comes a response about why you didn't want to wait to get the Boomer Bile in post 129, then again about Cyanide's post in 152.

Then, finally, you post your explanation in post 156, page 7.

So how am I supposed to believe, DN, that you weren't just stalling for time until you could think of a passable excuse?

It took you nearly 100 posts to give your explanation after it was first brought to the Town's attention.
You weren't inactive because you posted 6 times before giving the reason, and you'd clearly read the Town's concerns and knew what they were about because you immediately gave your meta excuse in post 78.
If that really was your initial reason for asking for a Town PM, why did it take you so long to provide it, and why did you post 6 times before doing so? Why did you first attempt to provide a meta defence for your actions, instead of just giving us your "real" reason straight off?


Can you see why I think your excuse is bullshit?

[DeathNote]

No... not really. I think your reaching hard for something to be a scum tell that shouldn't be.

Wouldn't me instantly giving a defensive stance be consider scummy? There was little reason for me to be concearned but as more and more people began to question my request as scum, then I was forced to give reasoning.

You do understand that by me claiming as I did means that limits scum targets for town PR? Why would I want to do that? That is why I post poned from giving my reasoning.

[almightybob]

Wouldn't me instantly giving a defensive stance be consider scummy?

A defensive stance, exactly like what you did with "I just always reek of scum"? Yes. A reasoned explanation? No. If you had quickly given a reasonable explanation, I would have been more likely to accept it as true, because you would have had less time to think up a fake explanation.

There was little reason for me to be concearned but as more and more people began to question my request as scum, then I was forced to give reasoning.

The last vote to be placed against you before your reason was Charlie in post 99. By this point it was pretty obvious that a lot of people thought it was suspicious - 4 people placed votes against you in the space of one page.
If you actually explained because of pressure, why didn't you explain then? Why did you still wait another 50+ posts? The pressure was all there from early on.

Seems likely to me that scum-you was finally forced into giving an explanation because of the pressure, because you thought we wouldn't give up until you did.

You do understand that by me claiming as I did means that limits scum targets for town PR? Why would I want to do that? That is why I post poned from giving my reasoning.

If you are Town, then your initial request for a Town role PM was the post that limits PR targets. That was the post that marked you as VT or scum, not your eventual explanation.

[DocPotter]

Glork: I've had a vote on someone for about 250 of the 290 posts in the game so far.

Starbuck:
Scum role PM, Power role PM, tweaking the mods nose, worried about getting a role PM that said "Survivor".

[Pomegranate]

To be fair Dizzy, Socrates plan/idea produced no early town benifit. Day 3, or day 2 if we get more item drops, and I can see it doing some good.
Though if we get a third drop today it becomes more plausable.

Yes, but to me it seems like the plan was potentially more beneficial for scum.

I would like to note that I'm far behind, and I need to catchup. I've been busy lately.

[Amished]

@Mod: V/LA until Monday the 22nd

[Glork]

Glork: I've had a vote on someone for about 250 of the 290 posts in the game so far.

So why remove it after 10+ pages? Leave it or put it elsewhere, but make sure we know where your top suspicions lie at all times. No protown player should ever object to that.

[Socrates]

Uh, you proposed a plan that offered no benefit to the town whilst giving scum the identities of everyone who picked up an item (and thus, probably the only pro-town powers we get) and potentially allowing the scum to know what each item does in order that they better plan their future killing strategy. Oh yes, what a wonderfully not-anti-town-at-all plan THAT was.

Keep up. I unvoted DeathNote. I'm not voting for anyone right now. I unvoted when I was V/LA because hanging votes like that can be troublesome when you're not around to remove them, and his response to the pressure applied to him produced a reasonable answer that did not merit a revote.

Ifrinn is producing useful content, opposes anti-town play, is involved and is at the very least appearing to hunt scum. Town read.

My biggest scum read is the most anti-town player so far. Meaning you. Hi.

I have already explained what the pro-town benefit of my plan is and people have largely ignored it. I would keep arguing about it, but that horse is out of the stall and nothing productive will come from it.*

Frickin A, your response to my plan when I first suggested it was essentially "That plan is too powerful, so there must be a flaw, and thus we shouldn't do it." What happened to THAT reasoning, Dizzy?

I find it absolutely fascinating that I am your biggest scum read when this is word one that I have heard about it. I mean, I made that suggestion on what, page 3? Why did you wait until after Amished started pressuring Thatguy about it to suddenly pipe up about me being scummy, instead using your time to get all pissy with Glork? This is especially ridiculous because you aren't even voting me. You have yet to to push anything pro-actively and this post from you is purely reactive to my questioning.

I also call bullshit on your line that Ifrinn is hunting scum.

I could totally go for a Dizzy lynch if I can't get my Ifrinn lynch.

*Side note: One of these days I need to make a big post in MD about how a lot of players fundamentally misuse power roles.

[Socrates]

How dare you question the authority of my secret list! Just obey and think whatever my secret list tells you to think!

OK no, you're right. It's not on my secret list. I said that to illustrate how straight-up retarded the "secret list" line is.

Bleh. I already explained what I was doing with the Ifrinn case, and I see no need to explain the town tell I saw Thatguy drop at this time, especially as even I am not a great believer in it.

To your case on Thatguy, fair enough, I will accept that, though I don't agree with it. (I feel you have consistently misunderstood what my intentions were regarding Ifrinn, should I apply your reverse Hanlon's razor to you and assume that you are scum? I don't think so.)