Mafia 110: Mafia in Hell, Michigan (Tied.)

[Ythan]

WRP_Beater has requested replacement.

Ugh.

[Riddick]

Have you ever seen him replace out of a game? I'm thinking it was probably due to pressure here, but I'm not sure if it's a scum tell or not.

[farside22]

Have you ever seen him replace out of a game? I'm thinking it was probably due to pressure here, but I'm not sure if it's a scum tell or not.

yes I have. The game is ongoing and I can't discuss further then that.

[Netopalis]

Yeah, sorry, I just forgot to remove him from my prod check list (referring to NS.)

[Unsight]

If there is a vig in the game then what's the issue?

Do we have a vigilante in the game?

Why is WRP scummy to you?
Do you know WRP is a scum's wet dream of an easy lynch? I'm sorry for being crude but if WRP is town he's the easiest person to make a case on for his anti-town behavoir. He's also if scum an easy way for scum to buss and looks oh so shiney. I suspect he's a VI.

I'm not sure what your goal is here. You ask why he's scummy and then immediately go on to talk about how his anti-town behavior makes him lynch-worthy. My reasons are in the post where I voted for him.

You keep saying VI which according to the wiki means Village Idiot (what I thought). When you keep saying that, are you talking about it as just a playing style or is that a role too (I just googled it to make sure and it popped up with wikipedia and Jester)?

[Ythan]

I'll check for him specifically but I don't think it looks good generally.

[Riddick]

Have you ever seen him replace out of a game? I'm thinking it was probably due to pressure here, but I'm not sure if it's a scum tell or not.

yes I have. The game is ongoing and I can't discuss further then that.

ugh ok.

[Ythan]

VI is not a role, it's just a bad player.

[farside22]

If there is a vig in the game then what's the issue?

Do we have a vigilante in the game?

Why is WRP scummy to you?
Do you know WRP is a scum's wet dream of an easy lynch? I'm sorry for being crude but if WRP is town he's the easiest person to make a case on for his anti-town behavoir. He's also if scum an easy way for scum to buss and looks oh so shiney. I suspect he's a VI.

I'm not sure what your goal is here. You ask why he's scummy and then immediately go on to talk about how his anti-town behavior makes him lynch-worthy. My reasons are in the post where I voted for him.

You keep saying VI which according to the wiki means Village Idiot (what I thought). When you keep saying that, are you talking about it as just a playing style or is that a role too (I just googled it to make sure and it popped up with wikipedia and Jester)?

Idk if we have a vig. I'm going with the assumption that the second kill is coming from a vig. It could be a sk

Also no I'm saying he's worthy of a vig kill not a lynch. You want to lynch him I'm not joining the wagon because as I said meta him and you will see he plays poorly always.

[Ythan]

The fact that he's always a bad player doesn't make him less scummy. Do you want a scummy VI sticking around for much longer?

[farside22]

The fact that he's always a bad player doesn't make him less scummy. Do you want a scummy VI sticking around for much longer?

How many scum do you think are in this game? Just off hand your theory?

Now that you have that number do you think it's best to 1) find someone you believe is scum and have them lynched or (2) lynch a player that is typically anti-town?

Thanks to a killer (vig/sk) in the game we are down two mafia. I figure statistically speaking a 20 player game has 4 to 5 mafia in their group.
If there is a 4 player mafia group then I would say pushing a mislynch is more probable.

[Ythan]

4 seems right with the SK but I don't know balance very well. We've gone two day/night cycles with two dead scum, I think it's perfectly reasonable to lynch Beater even if you're not sure if he's more anti-town or scummy.

[molestargazer]

prod MOLE(st) too please.

Ha ha.

Here. Been lazy recently. I need to pick up my case on jb and take a look at my other suspects yesterday and how they fit in with NS's lynch.
I will do my best to get something substantial down tonight.

[farside22]

4 seems right with the SK but I don't know balance very well. We've gone two day/night cycles with two dead scum, I think it's perfectly reasonable to lynch Beater even if you're not sure if he's more anti-town or scummy.

Beater is being replaced so what's the point now of pushing that lynch?

[Ythan]

Restore my hope in players who promise content.

[Ythan]

4 seems right with the SK but I don't know balance very well. We've gone two day/night cycles with two dead scum, I think it's perfectly reasonable to lynch Beater even if you're not sure if he's more anti-town or scummy.

Beater is being replaced so what's the point now of pushing that lynch?

I think he's scum.

[Ythan]

]DedicatedScribe looks good. Good vote on Musher333, good FoS on crypto. Active, posts are relevant. Need to do more thorough isolated analysis.

Kison, do you think this is still true?

[molestargazer]

Restore my hope in players who promise content.

I aim to do so.

Time to revisit suspects from yesterday. Below is a quick summary of their names and their 'Scum rating' from my ISO17.

horrordude0215 - 9 - pman5595, Ythan, Crypto, Lowell, ace5993, MoleStargazer, JBernier93, Nobody Special, DedicatedScribe, horrordude0215, RichardGHP - (LYNCHED)

Nobody Special - 9 - Ythan, Kison, DedicatedScribe, Riddick, Rikenslope, Farside22, Konowa, MoleStargazer, Unisght - (LYNCHED)

Discounting NS, who is dead,

ace/Kison:

Mild/Moderate (2)

Pman:

Low (1)

Ythan:

Mild/Moderate (2)

Lowell:

Mild (1)

Jbernier:

Moderate/Heavy (1)

Dedicated Scribe:

Moderate (2)

Bringing these together:
DedicatedScribe, Ythan, Kison/Ace all have been on both wagons and have a scumrating above Low/Mild. I definitely feel this warrants a little more of a look, but do not think that I'm abandoning my case on jbernier93. That will resume when I'm done.

DEDICATEDSCRIBE: Both Wagons, Moderate Scumrating Yesterday

Now, I never picked up his response to my comments/criticism in ISO17, as far as I can remember. Now, to ease everyone's pain in reading this, I'll be quoting my original point in ISO17, followed by his response, the full text of which can be seen HERE. Apologies for any confusion I may cause.

I don't understand this (ISO 8)

In actuality, it isn't timely or convenient, as he's getting votes right now O.o

His join date kinda removes this point, however. Ill also FoS WRP_ Beater.

Could you please exlpain? Seems like a little fence-sitting.

1. At first, I thought WRP was town. Right now, I'd like to think my gut read was right. I made a post saying that I thought WRP was town.

I was responding to someone saying WRP's entrance was "convenient". I found that ludicrous that someone would vote for someone for a "convenient entrance", when in fact, this entrance was not convenient at all.

And I made a point about the join date, because it could have been possible WRP was lurking, and posted b/c he's a noob like that.

Thank you for the explanation.
This still seems to me a lot like fence-sitting. You made post stating that he was town, and backed him up when someone criticised his convenient entrance, and yet still found something fishy enough to go for an FoS? I don't quite understand how his joindate could mean he was lurking, or how it can possibly remove your defence.

Richard and Mr. Beater are on my more realistic hitlist for today. Shall we?

unvote; vote WRP_Beater

I don't know why I'd rather vote Beater. Mainly because I feel the attack on him is more easy to understand, and the one on Richard could be sensationalized. I don't have enough time to look on that, so I'll go with the simpler choice.

This bit also rubs me the wrong way. It sounds like he just doesn't want to put the effort in to push a case he likes, but instead goes for an easy and 'simple' one. Surely that isn't how you catch scum?

2. It's exactly how I find scum. Build pressure upon likely scum, and analyze the response. It's just one of my strategies, when I don't have the best lead/attack ever. Not my only, or best, way.

I understand how pushing and placing pressure on a suspect is a good thing. What I'm asking for is why you chose the easy way of doing it instead of going after and putting pressure on Richard, who could just as likely be scum. It looks like you took the easy way out to try and secure a lynch.

A test? I think it makes WRP seem more nooby. If he's scum, why does he continue to rely on this noob facet?

Thinking on this, I'll unvote WRP_Beater at this point.

Don't call me contradictory.

Uh... well, um...
*Awkward pause*
Let's call it coming round to sense in a way that you, uh, wouldn't have been a particular fan of earlier?

3. I don't completely understand that.

I'm calling you Contradictory. First you said he was town but FoSed him, then you voted him because it's easy, then unvoted again for his newbiness.

I spend 3 posts explaining my reasoning for horror-vote, and you are still disturbed?

Could you please point me to these? To ease my laziness? I have been writing this post for around an hour now. Have pity. Please. You know you want to. It might help. Like, lots.

4. Sigh. You know I'm lazy, too, right?

post 52, 49, 45 (I was basically searching for a reason to either vote, or mount an attack on Ythan).

Post 52 is the biggest explanation. Speaking of which, I'ma talk about that horror wagon pretty soon.

Right, I'll go through each one of these.

To your ISO 51: Dammit.

On further note, I think horror could be scum. I voted him because tomorrow will not be profitable if he is left alive, and probably tonight, also.

Furthermore, I'm 50% sure he is scum.

With this in mind, I find it necessary to lynch horror despute my doubt of his alliance. If a wagon began on someone else at this time, I would doubt its success, as the weekend is coming up. D1 would be a disaster, and we'd learn little from the wagon on horror, who is better off dead.

You think, then are 50% sure, then are happy to lynch, then he's better off dead? You sound like you're trying to convince yourself.
Could you please explain why you thought tomorrow would be less profitable when he was dead? This doesn't really give much of a reason for lynching him other than wanting him out of the way.

Anyone who doesnt think horror is scum, vote for him anyway. As I said,

he is a safe lynch, being VT

, nooby, and [sorry to say] distracting. It is also D1.

You seem far too sure of him being VT.

Getting bored with this. If you want, say no to the above, and I'll see how long it takes to get an answer from someone else.

Oh, and vote horror

Werent you supposed to be doing something?

...
I've spotted no actual reasonings for your vote on horror other than wanting him out of the way to get D1 out of the way and to ease confusion.

Now, I need to analyse his play on D3.

Ythan, for someone so intelligent, you seem to keep pulling duds. But, I suppose, so have I.
But still. Weird how the one who is night killed is the one you plan to have lynched the following day. First Richard, then Saint Kerrigan.

It can't be a coincidence, but WIFOM nonetheless...

Mega fence-sit.

voting Lowell for (in part) giving 2 scum town points

...stupid. Sorry.

Could you please explain why you think this is stupid?

oh noes ythan has tarped me! Now he knows my evil plan to destroy the town by noting strange NK patterns!

...

Townies (except perhaps those who make obv that they know what they're doing) make more BIG slips than scum. It's the small slips that seem to be more effective scumtells. Small and plentiful. Disagree if you will.

Going to have to disagree, really.

People of interest:
Ythan (He's on my ttoopp. He's also my personal Yoy. No, you don't get to know what that means)
rikenslope (the spell check says to call you glockenspiel ^^)
jbearner (because I have a habit of ignoring the low people on my list, who often happen to be scum)

Could you please explain why (apart from jbernier)? A brief summary for both Ythan and Rik would be lovely.

I picked up far more than I thought I would. It seems as though I'm going to have to discard my earlier town-vibe. That WAS D1.

Summary

- Fence-Sitting
- Contridictions
- Seemed WAY too sure of horror being town.
- Little reasoning for suspicions, both horror and recently.

YTHAN: Both Wagons, Mild/Moderate Scumrating Yesterday

What makes Ythan so bloody difficult to ISO is that he alone has made

21 PAGES

of posts. So I'm blaming Ythan for why this game is so long.
Yesterday, I pointed out his aggression and fierce pushing on those he thought were scum.

He seemed overly concerned about the flavour first thing today, but I don't see that as a scumtell.

Page 61 and Konowa finds nothing better to vote for.

In response to Konowa's case on Lowell. I find this kinda slander a little pointless - at least a case is being made?

He claims he's "Found scum" on DedicatedScribe, but then later goes onto vote Rik.
@Ythan - Do you still think DS is scum?

I still think that desipte what he's doing, his scumhunting is inherantly pro-town.

I'm going to switch my vote to Beater for now because he's scummy and I have not gotten to my other suspects, or most players at all, yet in this round of rehashing old material.

unvote vote WRP_Beater

Put here for later reference - although by this point already you seem to have found a lot, particularly on DS who you made several posts criticising. I'm a little confused here.

His posting's quite difficult to read in ISO in that he rarely references who he's attacking.
Overall, my ScumRating on Ythan stays as it is. I think there's better targets to pursue.

ACE/KISON: Both Wagons, Mild/Moderate Scumrating Yesterday

Ace I already covered definitively (all 4 posts, if I remember rightly) in ISO17, which was what earned him this scumrating. Time to take a look at Kison.
My first thought when I clicked the button to view Kison in ISO was seeing his avatar and going "Oh, that guy". Seems fairly low-key, but I can't remember seeing anything particularly bad. I'll take a look.

DedicatedScribe looks good. Good vote on Musher333, good FoS on crypto. Active, posts are relevant. Need to do more thorough isolated analysis.

I agree with Ythan, I'd like an up-to-date viewpoint on these players.

Quite frankly, there isn't much I've seen up to ISO 10 that is comment-worthy. The case on NS he makes is pretty good.
In light of this, his new scumrating is MILD.

I was going to continue my case on Jbernier, but
- I really, really can't be bothered right now. Perhaps tomorrow.
- I've found a more likely scum.

Vote: DedicatedScribe

(Made big to hope the mod notices it in amongst the bolding in this post.)

As always, please point out any errors / problems in this post, I'm tired and cba proof-reading it.

[Ythan]

I do think DS is more than 50% likely to be scum. The reason I had a lot of posts about him is that it came up while reviewing someone else. My method today has been to read a player's own posts, then search their name in each other player's iso. So points do come up regarding players other than those for whom I am directly searching.

[Ythan]

Thus far I have the following reads. I'm going down the list if you're wondering at any omission.

2. MoleStargazer

3. Lowell

4. WRP_Beater

7. Kison replacing ace5993

8. JBernier93
10. RayFrostWikiManager replacing RayFrost
11. Farside22
12. Rikenslope
13. pman5595
14. DedicatedScribe
16. Riddick replacing SeptL
18. Unsight replacing Cirno
19. Ythan
20. Konowa replacing Musher333

Orange means you're not allowing me to get a town read on you by participating in discussion and clearing up suspicions and would make a good vig kill if there weren't such overtly scummy players in the game.

[Ythan]

Riddick, how do you feel about your predecessor's case against jb?

voet; jbenier

cos ur not inno

[pman5595]

hi guys. I son't have anything to say, but I had better post or Ythan will get on my case. Lowell is still the most scummy, followed by Rikenslope.

[Ythan]

Gives positive comments on scum.
Not on nobody special wagon (didn't want to wagon on a townie maybe?).
Goes after Rikenslope, possibly his scumbuddy for reasons explained day 2.

Not talking about horror, for the most part.
When he did, he said he found him moderately scummy, but never gave reasons.
I think he is scum trying to avoid being on townie wagon. Because if he was town not voting for horror he would have provided better reasoning.

Would I be correct in assume that these are the entirety of your cases?

[RayFrostWikiManager]

/picking up prod

Though I doubt any of you are very happy to see me. (Grrr, it's that insane sick lurker dude.) I've been reading over the thread, and have reads, but they're not all that well substantiated; I just have general feelings, basically.

2. MoleStargazer - scummy
3. Lowell - neutral (he seems town, but I can't read this dude very well, I've found)
4. WRP_Beater - neutral (though I need to review his wagon)
7. Kison replacing ace5993 - neutral, leaning town (his vote on me is well-reasoned; just need to see more out of him)
8. JBernier93 - a bit scummy, but I'm hesitant to lynch.
10. RayFrostWikiManager replacing RayFrost - town (though needs to get less sick)
11. Farside22 - town
12. Rikenslope - neutral, leanin' more townish as of late (mostly due to the unnatural amount of suspicion on him/her - similar to the way SaintKerrigan was)
13. pman5595 - scummy
14. DedicatedScribe - I thought he was town, but I forgot why...
16. Riddick replacing SeptL - town (though not as certain about as some other town reads)
18. Unsight replacing Cirno - town
19. Ythan - town
20. Konowa replacing Musher333 - neutral

Basically, I've got too many town reads. Something here is amiss...

Bleh.

vote pman5595

is what I'm thinkin' for now.

I'm still an idiot that needs to do a lot more reading, though.

[Ythan]

I'm having some trouble finding anything in JB's history to indicate any suspicion of me before his vote, or much at all after it even.

This stands.

Just to clarify this, you...

A) ...don't see those as scum tells at all.
or
B) ...are wanting to ignore those because it's Lowell.

Mostly B, although really I wouldn't mind if Lowell was lynched.

You can provide a possible answer for this but I still think it's pretty suspect and something to be remembered regardless.

This stands.

Oh right there wasn't any night 0 O_O
Anyway Riddick, why did you daykill me without even asking once for a RC? Anyway, I am (or at least was) a VT. I win with the town. Also, I know now you can't cancel the daykill. Believe me, I'm a VT. Why would I lie when I am daykilled? You've just wasted a daykill.

unvote

He's such a newb that I think I can believe this... for now.

I maintain that ellipses make self distancing x times more telling whether x is the number of periods used.

This stands.

Surely you remember which posts you considered good.

Honestly, there were never any specific posts.

This stands out.