Open 204: Friend and Enemies Over

[Chaco]

Getting a replacement is proving to be a lot harder than necessary, I've had two responses and botht have been asking for cross replacements. Which I do not have the time to do currently. So, I'm going to go ahead and start Day 2 where all interest will not stagnate.

"So it began, and so it continued. Not even a night of peace round these parts anymore."

Mindgamer,

Town Mason

has been killed during the Night.

Deadline is tentative at the moment, but will be set for Two Weeks for now. An official deadline will be set upon filling the replacements.

[don_johnson]

really? what a scummy mason...

mod: i can replace in somewhere for you if it means getting someone in here.

anyhow:

vote: disco

this one should have never been let go.

[farside22]

Mindgamer did vote for him so this definately leads to disco not being mason

Unvote. Vote: DiscoRoboto

The last vote count is on page 8. Come on, moderator.

vote: Disco

fos: excedrin

I just find something scummy I know I sensed.

[don_johnson]

poor form farside. if you iso mindgamer, you may find something which states otherwise. i.e. mg may have been distancing.

here's my issue: one of the main reasons i left the disco wagon yesterday was the vehement defense which disco was recieving. farside, herself, was one of disco's main supporters. during her entire defense(which remained unexplained) she attempted to argue against my theory that vanillas should buddy to/defend others on day 1 to avoid revealing mason partnerships. so, if farside is vanilla, why was she defending Disco so much yesterday? the attacks on disco were well warranted given the easily provable backtracking and misdirection, and yet farside seemed to completely ignore the idea of disco scum yesterday. my thought was that disco/farside were masons. if thats not the case i would like farside to explain why they defended disco so hard yesterday(apparently thinking they were a mason), while debunking the theory that vanillas should engage in buddying/defense of others in order to protect the masons.

what's with the 180?

unvote

[don_johnson]

farside: just to be clear, i would like our conversation to remain civil. there is no need for this to turn into an anti-town pissing match. if my tone seems offensive, just let me know. my confusion revolves around your vote today. it seems as though you are voting him simply based on the fact that he is not mason. you entirely discount the idea he is vanilla. the whole case on him yesterday seemed to revolve around the idea of him being either scum or mason. in other words, you were defending him solely based on the fact that you thought he was a mason while chastising me for exhibiting the same behavior earlier in the day. the only difference was that i acknowledged the added benefit such defense has when exhibited by a vanilla townie. in any case. i am puzzled, so i would like you to expand on why you think disco is scum.

the "poor form" was in reference to the fact that you just outed yourself as "not mason". but we need more input. off to work...

[DiscoRoboto]

sorry i was vla this weekend

[farside22]

poor form farside. if you iso mindgamer, you may find something which states otherwise. i.e. mg may have been distancing.

here's my issue: one of the main reasons i left the disco wagon yesterday was the vehement defense which disco was recieving. farside, herself, was one of disco's main supporters. during her entire defense(which remained unexplained) she attempted to argue against my theory that vanillas should buddy to/defend others on day 1 to avoid revealing mason partnerships. so, if farside is vanilla, why was she defending Disco so much yesterday? the attacks on disco were well warranted given the easily provable backtracking and misdirection, and yet farside seemed to completely ignore the idea of disco scum yesterday. my thought was that disco/farside were masons. if thats not the case i would like farside to explain why they defended disco so hard yesterday(apparently thinking they were a mason), while debunking the theory that vanillas should engage in buddying/defense of others in order to protect the masons.

what's with the 180?

unvote

Excuse me? Where the heck are you getting this from?

if you iso mindgamer, you may find something which states otherwise. i.e. mg may have been distancing.

Why would mindgamer vote and but his mason partner at L-2?
Second mindgamer a town mason just died. He was voting disco and thought he was scummy. I thought maybe disco could be a VI. Now with Mindgamer dead and McG town nothing about disco makes sense. I had thought most of day 1 was scum pushing a mislynch.
Also you look like your telling all the players who you think the mason's are now. Is that really pro-town after the arguement we had yesterday about hiding mason's?

fos: Dj

for being a hypocrite of your own theory.

[don_johnson]

*facepalm*

i guess you'd rather it be a pissing match.

Mindgamer did vote for him so this definately leads to disco not being mason

^^ this implies that you were

not

voting him yesterday because you thought he

might

be a mason.

I thought maybe disco could be a VI.

^^ yet here you say you thought maybe he could be a VI(do you mean vanilla?). so what exactly has changed about disco's status which now makes him voteworthy? why can't he still be a VI? your logic is confusing me. why exactly do you think disco is scum?

[hewitt]

really? what a scummy mason...

That was a stupid statement, explain why it's necessary.

Vote: Disco

For exactly the same reasons I voted for him yesterday.

[DiscoRoboto]

@farside, hewitt and everyone else voting me (i dont remember them atm): I can out every mason in the game right now with (I think) ~70% accuracy, per mason.
That said, I'm a vanilla townie. im not gonna defend myself like normally, but know that im onto your group.

[farside22]

*facepalm*

i guess you'd rather it be a pissing match.

Mindgamer did vote for him so this definately leads to disco not being mason

^^ this implies that you were

not

voting him yesterday because you thought he

might

be a mason.

I thought maybe disco could be a VI.

^^ yet here you say you thought maybe he could be a VI(do you mean vanilla?). so what exactly has changed about disco's status which now makes him voteworthy? why can't he still be a VI? your logic is confusing me. why exactly do you think disco is scum?

mindgamer thought he was scummy. Did you miss that part?

Oh look disco and dj both now want to out the mason's. Tell me how town these 2 are.

[farside22]

@farside, hewitt and everyone else voting me (i dont remember them atm): I can out every mason in the game right now with (I think) ~70% accuracy, per mason.
That said, I'm a vanilla townie. im not gonna defend myself like normally, but know that im onto your group.

If you were town you should be looking into a scum group. This just reinforces my vote more.

[don_johnson]

sorry farside, but you clearly outed yourself as "not mason". don't try to project suspicion onto me for a move that you made.

mindgamer thought he was scummy. Did you miss that part?

i need to iso and find out just how much, but either way, this insinuation flies directly in the face of the theory you were pushing yesterday. if you recall you fought me tooth and nail on how masons would act in this set-up. you claimed yesterday that they wouldn't defend each other. now you are claiming that they wouldn't vote each other. so tell me, if the masons aren't going to defend each other, and aren't going to attack each other for distancing purposes, how exactly are the masons supposed to act? (rhetorical, don't answer). your logic is fuzzy and your attitude is extremely confrontational.

hewitt: my statement wasn't "necessary". i was highly surprised by the flip as mg was one of my main suspects.

farside: in case you missed these

so what exactly has changed about disco's status which now makes him voteworthy? why can't he still be a VI? your logic is confusing me. why exactly do you think disco is scum?

^^ please answer all three.

[don_johnson]

ok. just iso'd mg. stand by my original statement. his posts showed little consistency and his final call on the scum team was at least 2/3 wrong. that said, we need more participation here.

farside: truce. i think you are most likely town in this situation. i do not want to clog this thread with useless back and forth. i would like you to answer my questions, and if you have some for me, please lay them out in an orderly fashion.

hewitt: disco's refusal to claim yesterday was a smart decision. the fact that he wasn't nk'd is the biggest indicator(imo) that he is scum. he has already claimed. running up his wagon isn't going to yield many more results from him. i am thinking we need an alternate strategy for today. perhaps keep him as a deadline lynch and all of us go back and reread a bit for new suspects. PE and water_foul need to be looked at and we need replacements. kind of frustrating.

[farside22]

so what exactly has changed about disco's status which now makes him voteworthy? why can't he still be a VI? your logic is confusing me. why exactly do you think disco is scum?

mindgamer thought he was scummy. He could still be a VI and there are 2 votes on him I still question and if disco flips town I would look more into excedrin and waterfowl if he does flip town.
The really thought disco did what he did for reaction. Looking back and reveluating there could be him trying to out the mason's in the game.
Now he's hinting more about trying to out them which screams scum.

If you thought disco and myself were mason why did you vote disco the start of the day?

[don_johnson]

are you referring to my random vote? i didn't think you and disco were masons until he softclaimed and you launched an unexplained defense of his actions while ignoring his scumminess.

mindgamer thought he was scummy.

how is this relevant? you said you thought disco was a VI.

He could still be a VI and there are 2 votes on him I still question and if disco flips town I would look more into excedrin and waterfowl if he does flip town.

what two votes are you questioning? why excedrin and water_foul if he flips town?

The really thought disco did what he did for reaction. Looking back and reveluating there could be him trying to out the mason's in the game.
Now he's hinting more about trying to out them which screams scum.

how could he out the masons if he is scum? if he is VI, do you think he is smarter than the scum team and that he does actually know who the masons are?

[don_johnson]

If you thought disco and myself were mason why did you vote disco the start of the day?

are you referring to today? if so, then let me explain:

disco softclaimed mason. you launched an unexplained defense. scum should have targeted one of you two. the mindgamer hit makes no sense.

disco's refusal to claim yesterday was a smart decision. the fact that he wasn't nk'd is the biggest indicator(imo) that he is scum.

at this point in time, the "biggest" indicator that disco is scum is that he wasn't nk'd even after he softclaimed and recieved defense(not from just you) from others. the only reason scum would hunt elsewhere is to either find one of his partners and push a mislynch or claim today or if they knew he wasn't mason. the only way they could "know" he's not a mason is if he's part of the scum team. however, if they were looking for his partners, mindgamer (as you pointed out) would be a poor choice. hence, disco is most likely scum. hence my vote. the only reason for my retraction is because i see you as a very possible partner for him. this, however, conflicts with my read on you to this point and so you do not have my vote(which will most likely land on disco). the other factor here is the amount of lurkage going on. i don't see any reason to lynch disco if we can't get full participation from the rest of the players as scum could easily be sitting back and watching as we lynch vanilla disco.

[farside22]

anyhow:

vote: disco

this one should have never been let go.

This is a random vote?

Oh this is all WIFOM about the kills. Don't you think the mafia had something to do with that?
Let me explain my theory.
If your right and disco is scum. Then killing me for example and my flip would put disco in the hot seat today. So if disco is scum killing me is bad. They do a shot at mindgamer (for some reason I don't know why) and unfortunetly for scum mindgamer flipped mason who was voting for disco, which now disco can't say anything but that he is VT because god knows scum can't claim scum and if he claimed mason no one would believe him.

Hence why I believe disco is scum that can't go back and now you think because I defended his actions I'm his scum partner? Seriously DJ how long have you been playing at this site that you saw scum defend scum as hard as I defending disco?
Cry WIFOM all you want but that's a serious question.

[don_johnson]

Seriously DJ how long have you been playing at this site that you saw scum defend scum as hard as I defending disco?

look at my join date. this is what continues to confuse me: why was it so hard for you to accept my theory yesterday regarding

my

defense of disco? you don't think scum defends scum, and you don't think mason defends mason. yet here:

If your right and disco is scum. Then killing me for example and my flip would put disco in the hot seat today. So if disco is scum killing me is bad. They do a shot at mindgamer (for some reason I don't know why) and unfortunetly for scum mindgamer flipped mason who was voting for disco, which now disco can't say anything but that he is VT because god knows scum can't claim scum and if he claimed mason no one would believe him.

your theory rests on scum buying into the relationships you say it would be stupid for anyone to believe exist. why would your flip put disco in the hotseat? my problem with you is that you are stating theory with no evidence. you haven't explained where you "reevaluated" and decided that disco was scum trying to out masons as opposed to the VI you thought he was yesterday. also, if you thought he was VI yesterday, then how does your theory work at all? the basis of your entire theory of "why disco is scum" revolves around one element:

because mindgamer voted disco. therefore disco is not a mason.

so why, if you thought he could possibly be VI yesterday, what has changed your mind to think that he is scum today? its a huge gap in your case. mg flipping mason is rather irrelevant, yet it is the cornerstone of why you say you believe disco is scum.

and no. you might not be his partner. you might just be scum pushing another mislynch. or you might be misguided town. however, i have never seen gaps like this is townfarside's logic, so meta tells me you are scum.

also, scum killed a mason. there was nothing "unfortunate" about it so i don't really understand that comment other than it relates to your case. somehow, mg's flip forced disco to claim VI which leads you to believe he is scum, even though you thought he was VI yesterday when you were defending him. its not adding up.

[hewitt]

I probably have nothing else to say today. Disco threatening to out Masons? Really?

Either scum or incredibly stupid, stupid, stupid arrogant town.

[farside22]

look at my join date. this is what continues to confuse me: why was it so hard for you to accept my theory yesterday regarding my defense of disco? you don't think scum defends scum, and you don't think mason defends mason. yet here:

Your defense was players should ignore the buddying. Please stop saying it was more then that. Now your claiming scum defend. Please link a game you know where scum defended each other

mg flipping mason is rather irrelevant, yet it is the cornerstone of why you say you believe disco is scum.

Mindgammer stated he thought he was scum.
Really my meta makes you believe I'm scum. Should I bring to this game the last game we were in together and let people evaluate for themselves how I was as scum.

also, scum killed a mason. there was nothing "unfortunate" about it so i don't really understand that comment other than it relates to your case. somehow, mg's flip forced disco to claim VI which leads you to believe he is scum, even though you thought he was VI yesterday when you were defending him. its not adding up.

Killing a player that is confirmed town isn't unforatunate how exactly?
Last time mindgamer believed he was scum. I'm following someone confirmed town mason who had a strong belief.

why would your flip put disco in the hotseat?

I'm town duh.

You know what fuck this shit.

unvote

vote: DJ

for completely misinterputering everything and lying about my meta.
1) dj said buddying not defending.
2) my scum meta :
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13046


More fuck this shit attitude. I'm mason you dumb ass that is why I know mindgamer thought disco was scum. READING IS TECH!

[don_johnson]

great. way to claim mason with one vote on you.

unvote

other mason is painfully obvious now. so basically, you've been arguing out of your ass this whole time because of what was said in last night's mason quicktopic? don't get mad at me for figuring out you were spouting shit not based on your own beliefs. as i said earlier, both masons and scum are informed minorities. same tactics can often out both. voting me isn't going to help. if you guys thought disco was scum then i'll follow. but don't blame me for you not being able to conceal the fact that you blatantly did a 180 with little to no reasoning. you should have played better.

also, with the amount of lurkers here, disco may be a suboptimal play. i guarantee that 2/3 of mg's last in thread scum list was wrong, so whatever.

[don_johnson]

Killing a player that is confirmed town isn't unforatunate how exactly?

you said that it was "unfortunate" for scum that he flipped mason. reading

is

tech. try it sometime.

[don_johnson]

also, i am not "lieing" about your meta. i haven't played with you a huge amount of times, but the times i have played with you you seemed smart. my apologies for thinking you were smart. now i have a concrete link to a game where you played like a complete dumbass(hint: its this one.) and no, i am not going to link to a game where scum defend each other. sometimes scum defend each other and sometimes they distance, and sometimes they downright bus. you were obviously "defending" disco and then made a complete 180 with no in thread evidence. i called you on it, you panicked and claimed mason. brilliant.

[farside22]

great. way to claim mason with one vote on you.

unvote

other mason is painfully obvious now. so basically, you've been arguing out of your ass this whole time because of what was said in last night's mason quicktopic? don't get mad at me for figuring out you were spouting shit not based on your own beliefs. as i said earlier, both masons and scum are informed minorities. same tactics can often out both. voting me isn't going to help. if you guys thought disco was scum then i'll follow. but don't blame me for you not being able to conceal the fact that you blatantly did a 180 with little to no reasoning. you should have played better..

unvote:
vote: disco

mains suspects are excedrin, waterfowl, disco and dj.

Excuse me for using someone I thought was town as bait for scum with I thought I would be killed last night. I see a push and players reactions so shot me for using that against the scum team.
Finally I have had a bad few games but your agruement was just me changing my mind and you still have given me a link showing a scum team defending each ohter here at MS.