Open 210: Carbon 14- Game over!

[semioldguy]

I feel your claim that asking someone to take a position is "coaching" has the potential to scare horrordude into not responding, for fear of looking coached.

That's ridiculous. Whatever he does won't change what you did. I made the observation on you, not him. If he is scared of posting for fear of looking coached, it is because you coached him, not because I pointed it out.

Well you are voting me, and if you are supposedly scum hunting, I would assume claiming I am "coaching" is an attempt to further said hunt...

I'll let you know when I think something you do is scummy. It will be very clear when I think something you do is scummy. There will not be any other way to interpret it.

Unhelpful observation is unhelpful. There are plenty of other ways... such as?

Threatening him to post. Voting for him to put pressure onto him. Asking him a specific question about something in the game, such as what he thinks of X player/post, which forces him take a stance on something/one. As well as many other methods. These things make him act/react in much clearer ways than simply asking him to post more. Did none of these actually occur to you?

Why would they be better ways of doing it than asking? Please do more than take unfounded positions and state opinions with no facts to back them up.

Asking him to post, and nothing more, isn't even the most effective way of getting a player to post. It doesn't force him to do anything useful. Did you not even consider any of the above as ways to get him to post? If you did consider them, I ask again, why did you choose the way you did instead of some other way? If not, then now you know you have more options available to you, would you make the same choice again and why or why not?

Or... since you are scum, mavsfan may have freaked when you got fingered so early and

decided to look like he was was one of the ones which started the bandwagon

, when really he had never voted at all. Scum do that all of the time.

I don't see where he claims to be one of the ones that started the bandwagon or where it even looks like this. Kind of hard to look like you are starting anything when four people each have their votes down before you in a seven player game.

Since the wagon was already at L-1,

he could claim to be the good guy for not hammering until town asked him too, despite his obvious support, and hope to convince us this meant he was pro-town.

Did he do this? Please don't make accusation of what someone might do in the future and use that as excuse for why someone is scummy now.

He takes a stance on your grammar, but that's about it.

He was the first to take a stance on my point system. He was also the first player to take a stance on you looking town. Seems pretty proactive in his stance-taking to me.

You think I am scum, and your scumbuddy is town. But what is your other position? Let's see some casefiles. Make a case on me, mavsfan, and whomever your third target is.

easjo682 is also likely town, as I have already stated. Read more carefully. I am not sharing why. It is not pro-town to share this information right now. She isn't a top suspect of anyone, not threatened by a possible lynch, and explaining why someone is likely town is generally something you don't inform the scum on how to emulate.

As such, reasons for which I stated to have found mavsfan41 town are no longer applicable for future reads, as scum are now readily aware of what they are.

[semioldguy]

@horrordude0215
What is you opinion on Steam-Powered Shovel

@Steam-Powered Shovel
Same question, only visa versa.

[Lacey]

Threatening him to post. Voting for him to put pressure onto him. Asking him a specific question about something in the game, such as what he thinks of X player/post, which forces him take a stance on something/one. As well as many other methods. These things make him act/react in much clearer ways than simply asking him to post more. Did none of these actually occur to you?

Oh I'm sure you'd love for me to take my vote and pressure off of your scum buddy but it isn't going to happen.

Asking him to post, and nothing more, isn't even the most effective way of getting a player to post. It doesn't force him to do anything useful. Did you not even consider any of the above as ways to get him to post? If you did consider them, I ask again, why did you choose the way you did instead of some other way? If not, then now you know you have more options available to you, would you make the same choice again and why or why not?

Yes, I'd make the same choice, because your suggestions are stupid. They involve me taking the pressure off of mavsfan. But as for your other suggestion:

Asking him a specific question about something in the game, such as what he thinks of X player/post, which forces him take a stance on something/one.

I've done this, I'd like everyone to take positions on the mavsfan debate.

I don't see where he claims to be one of the ones that started the bandwagon or where it even looks like this. Kind of hard to look like you are starting anything when four people each have their votes down before you in a seven player game.

Obviously

he'd have to wait until you were lynched and flipped scum or it'd be an even dumber plan than it already is.

Did he do this? Please don't make accusation of what someone might do in the future and use that as excuse for why someone is scummy now.

Sorry, you don't want me to make judgements on motivations now? But the Great and Wise Scum Hunter, Smelly Old Guy told me too! Oh noes!

easjo682 is also likely town, as I have already stated. Read more carefully. I am not sharing why. It is not pro-town to share this information right now. She isn't a top suspect of anyone, not threatened by a possible lynch, and explaining why someone is likely town is generally something you don't inform the scum on how to emulate.

As such, reasons for which I stated to have found mavsfan41 town are no longer applicable for future reads, as scum are now readily aware of what they are.

Still refusing to post cases, evidence, or anything at all which is even marginally helpful to town I see.

Scummy......

[semioldguy]

I've done this, I'd like everyone to take positions on the mavsfan debate.

How about a question unique to him so he can't just wait for everyone else to say something and parrot off others?

Sorry, you don't want me to make judgements on motivations now? But the Great and Wise Scum Hunter, Smelly Old Guy told me too! Oh noes!

Nothing happened for you to judge a motivation on. You are creating a possible future scenario and finding a motivation in the future scenario. This isn't helpful unless/until that actually happens. In which case... why wouldn't you wait until it actually happens?

If you are using the supposed future scenario as the motivation, then you aren't following my advice at all. What you actually did is construct a line of possible actions and attach a motivation to it. If the line of actions doesn't work out that way then the motivation is no longer valid since what the motivation would have caused doesn't exist. You need to look at the motivations of things that have already happened that don't count upon future actions that may never take place.

I can take any player and speculate about something they might do in the future that is scummy. But since they didn't actually do those things yet my point wouldn't be valid.

[mavsfan41]

You know for a "good scum hunter" you seem to be grasping at thin straws and once again trying to suppress the discussion.

How does that suppress the discussion?

Also why do you automatically assume that what you did was scummy to me? I made no comment on it one way or the other.

Do you really consider asking horrordude to post more information to facilitate reads on him as either mafia or town is coaching?

There are plenty of other ways to get him to post. Advising him to do so is only one of those ways, you could have chosen another way. Hence my post of "Coaching?"

Explain to me how on earth we're supposed to read him otherwise?

I never said we were supposed to read him otherwise. There's more than one way to try getting someone to post, what may you choose the way you did is what I am asking myself.

And you still haven't answered me on why you are oh so convinced mavsfan is town.

If you are scum, then mavsfan41 would have not come in posting the way he did during our whole exchange. If you are town, then scum would be much more likely to just sit back, watch, and let the town destroy themselves. With mavsfan41 being an active poster despite the two of us going at it, I find this a likely town tell from him. He does more than just parrot, he takes his own stance between us while the two of us were fighting. Very town-like thing to do.

But yes, >70% chance of lynching town on day 1. It'd be nice to do otherwise, and bag scum, but ultimately we need people to take positions first. And so far most people aren't doing so. Not even you, the "Great Scumhunter of Mafiascum".

My position on players is probably one of the most clear here. I have taken a solid stance with my opinion on three of the six other players. Your accusation rings false.

The statistic you continuously bring up regarding a random lynch on day one hitting a townie >70% of the time is irrelevant. We aren't lynching at random.

This part I have bolded I think is very logical and very probable. The ones who aren't posting very much are suspicious. Can we stop this. I want to hear from others who don't post much. If this happens to be the town fighting, it will be easy for a lurking scum to devise an easy way to get any of us lynched.

What does everyone else think of everything that's going on?

[Jackabomb]

As of now I am searching for a replacement for TheChestPube, in accordance with the rules.

Hey guys! You know how I said the Best New Cadet(BNC) winner wouldn't be released until Friday? Well I was wrong. They released it today(Thursday) morning aaaand....drum roll please....I won!

[semioldguy]

Congratulations!

[easjo682]

What does everyone else think of everything that's going on?

I'm coming round to the idea that lacey might be scum more and more with each post, but am unwilling to hammer at the moment

[Jackabomb]

The "We Have Nothing to Fear but Fear Itself." Vote Count

semioldguy- TCP;
mavsfan-Lacey;
Lacey- Steam, Semioldguy, Mavsfan;

Not voting-easjo, horrordude,
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch or no lynch.

I believe this is correct. If not tell me.

I have a confession. I'm the mafia. Zorblag and I are scum together. Yes, it's true, you were all given town-sided PM's of one sort or another. I'm sorry to have ruined the game for you. It seemed like a good idea at the time. You may lynch us now.

Good Night!

[Jackabomb]

What's wrong with you people!?!?! I wake up and nobody has posted?!

I TOLD you who the mafia were!

Oh, well.

Good Morning!

There are seven days left until the deadline.

[horrordude0215]

Been really busy over the past few days... I'll reread the last few pages hopefully now. (If not later today)

[Steam-Powered Shovel]

Sorry for my lack of posting.

Because I was baiting you for evidence, and you are right, there is nothing you could have said at that point, to that line of questioning which would not have seemed scummy. There were just some answers that would have seemed less scummy.

This position is untenable. He can not implicate himself by the act of answering. There have to be responses which would make you less suspicious of him. (Obvious exception: if every response is a null tell.)

I agree re: coaching. It's weak, but it does point to Lacey-Horrordude.

mavsfan41 is town.

Horrordude: needs to post more. On page 7 he comes in, sides with Lacey and decides to keep his vote on semioldguy. It seems he's making the mistake of thinking people you agree with are town and people you disagree with are scum. He seems to be relatively inexperienced and it's a fairly common mistake, so I would treat this as a null tell.

There are two things of note I found when ISOing his posts.

These two quotes:

With Lacey, I'm getting a pro-town vibe from her, but if semi flips town, I see her as very probable scum.

@ SOG... fair enough... I can see the reasoning behind it, and I've been in the Town V Town case way to many times not to know that it's what happens most of the time.

You need more to conclude that Lacey is very probable scum than that she argued with a townie. He should know better than that and he says he does later on. Could be lazy thinking, but it doesn't look too good.

Lacey and semi -

Other than each other

, who are your top suspects so far?

Horrordude, why did you choose to ask Lacey and semi a question here, as opposed to for example easjo and me?

[horrordude0215]

Okay, I ISO'd lacey and here's something I found interesting:

ISO 5: Reluctant to put at L-1
ISO 8: Willing to hammer

3 posts was enough to change your mind? Really?

ISO 10: Asks about Policy lynches, as if trying to see if town would support her in the PL of SOG
ISO 18: FoS mavsfan for the grammar issue... I took that as a joke when I first read it... why didn't you?
ISO 22: Puts SOG at L-1, despite being reluctant in ISO 5. Another contradiction
ISO 26: Tells mavs not to hammer... why would you put someone at L-1 if you don't want them to be hammered?
ISO 33: Presents an argument against mavsfan just because mavs suggested that she was scummy.

All the rest of her posts have just been her tunneling against mavs.

I have to go now... will post more thoughts later if possible, but in the meantime: Claim now. I'm ready to hammer if need be.

[mavsfan41]

Don't forget about ISO 2 when she gave SOG a FoS for his line, "If I like you, I'll take some of your points away. If not, then I'll give you more." And she accuses me of twisting words...

[horrordude0215]

Lacey and semi -

Other than each other

, who are your top suspects so far?

Horrordude, why did you choose to ask Lacey and semi a question here, as opposed to for example easjo and me?

The entire thread seemed to be a back and forth between those 2... I just wanted to check to see if they were doing more than tunneling each other.

[easjo682]

yeah think thats why everyone else hasn't posted so much

[mavsfan41]

@ Jackabomb - are you allowed to prod everyone?

[Jackabomb]

I can prod whoever has not posted within a 48 hour time frame. Who matches that description that you have in mind?

[Steam-Powered Shovel]

Prod Lacey.

Lacey, it's time to claim.

[mavsfan41]

How long do we give Lacey to respond to all this pressure? It seems as though she ran away from the forum along with the only person who may have been on her side... TheChestPube. The last vote remaining on SOG. But he hasn't been around that much to actually change his vote. That may be a rough outline at a scum pair right now only due to their voting patterns. Obviously that is not a fool-proof way to find the scum partner. But if Lacey is lynched and comes up scum, I think the top suspect should be TCP's replacement.

[horrordude0215]

I agree that if Lacey comes up scum, TCP is a very likely scum candidate. But what happens if Lacey comes up town? I see that as unlikely at this point, but it's a slight possibility.

[Lacey]

Glad to see people have no idea what V/LA stands for.

And

FoS

on Horrordude, I never was willing to hammer.

And no, I will not claim. Claims on day one serve no purpose. If I'm to be the lynch, I'm to be the lynch, a claim by me to move the lynch would serve only to help point out power roles to scum. The scum are running the lynch, so all I have to say is when I flip town, reread mavsfan. He's the one.

[semioldguy]

I was about to mention that she'd be away for another two days due to V/La so we shouldn't expect her, but then she posted as I hit preview.

Regarding claims on day one... they are not at all worthless. If we lynch a power role who chooses not to claim on day one, then it is no different than letting the scum kill that revealed power role if we had moved the lynch. What good does it do to prevent a power role from claiming if you intend for that player to be lynched anyway?

It wouldn't point out any power roles to scum, because the alternative is that the power role would already be dead.

[Lacey]

I was about to mention that she'd be away for another two days due to V/La so we shouldn't expect her, but then she posted as I hit preview.

Regarding claims on day one... they are not at all worthless. If we lynch a power role who chooses not to claim on day one, then it is no different than letting the scum kill that revealed power role if we had moved the lynch. What good does it do to prevent a power role from claiming if you intend for that player to be lynched anyway?

It wouldn't point out any power roles to scum, because the alternative is that the power role would already be dead.

Still V/LA, just in a period of LA.

Either way the power role is dead by night 1. So, sorry, but no. Claiming is a waste of everyone's time and I refuse to do so.

[Lacey]

Some final notes:

1) Mavsfan is guilty of gross, repeated, falsehood and misdirection. Reread him when I flip town. He is the obvious scum.

2) His partner is probably either semioldguy or horrordude. Reread them as well.

Good luck guys remember, tomorrow is lylo.