Riddle Me This! NY111 - mafia dead - Town wins!

[Thestatusquo]

Please disregard first of these three posts. Damn internets.

Vote Count

DizzyIzzyB13

- Shanba, inHimshallibe, FeFiFoFum (L-8)

VasudeVa

- scotmany12, dahill1, Quagmire (L-8)

scotmany12

- springlullaby (L-10)

Springlullaby

- DizzyIzzyB13 (L-10)

dahill1

- Anon, Ksun482, Thestatusquo, Mipe, RichardGHP, VasudeVa, inHimshallibe (L-4)

Richard Massive

- theopor_COD (L-10)

With 20 alive, its 11 to lynch

Not Voting:

ImmuneShadow
Dr.Cyanide
Richard Massive
Korts

It is not necessary to unvote before voting a new person.

Prodding ImmuneShadow

"A funny bone!"

[RichardGHP]

I don't want to lynch Dizzy because a) there was literally nothing to go on when the wagon started (I believe it was even pushed pregame), b) there are now lynches that actually have merit to them and c) because Dizzy is a very good player, one that could greatly help the town, especially in later rounds.

Also, guys, if you don't want to call me Richard for fear of confusion, just put GHP on the end of it. I'd prefer that you didn't just put GHP on its own.

[scotmany12]

Scot I guess my question to you is "why are you focusing on it?" It seems to me that you think he's playing the noob card, is there some reason you'd be more likely to expect noob scum to play the newbie card more than noob town that I've never heard of? In my experience, they tend to play it about equally. It's also my experience that noob players dont REALIZE that they're "playing" as much as they're just trying to apologize for their own inexperience, and thats what it seems to me that vas is doing here.

I mean, he IS a noob. Why is this a reason to pursue him, and if it isn't, then why are you pursuing him?

also, you're reaching. I don't remember the context of the other two quotes, but the first and second ones were both directly responding to players asking if he was new/had a meta, and calling him new. In fact, the first and second quotes, when read from that context actually show him NOT pulling the newb card, because he goes out of his way to point out that he also has experience and that he's not that new. Are you tunnelling this early? Why?

Him being a noob isn't why i'm pursuing him. I'm pursuing him because he wanted to get Izzy to claim off of nothing, he omgus both me and korts, and I think he is exploiting where others have called him a noob. Someone who has read ten games as he has said would know its not helpful to the town to get a cop to claim. And I hate how he would choose to do that over scumhunt. I don't get a noob town vibe from him. I'm getting a noob scum vibe from him who has latched onto what others say about him being a newb, and using that as his defense.

And I looked at his posts in iso. And those first two might be responses to others about his meta. First of all, I don't see why he would include the line "So it's probably some of my noobiness" in the first one unless he was going to exploit it. Before anyone started questioning his logic, he said he was semi-wellversed, then when people started calling him new and clueless, he stuck onto that. It reads to me as someone who is trying to exploit what others have said about him. Am I making sense here?

I don't think I'm tunneling. I'm pursuing someone I think is scum. I am still waiting for mipe to answer my questions, and Im waiting for the replacements input. As far as I can tell, there is like 7 really active people, and the rest are sitting back and lurking which isn't good.

In particular, his unvote then revote on dahill looks fairly town to me - he originally is voting dahill because he still likes the claims idea, then he gets bashed around a bit on that theory and unvotes, then he votes dahill for a different reason (i.e. the case he originally dismissed before tsq spelt it out for him.)

No...he was voting for izzy first, then moved unto the dahill wagon. Also, as far as I'm aware, he is voting for dahill because he doesn't like his content level, not the case that you and TSQ are pursuing.

I don't want to lynch Dizzy because a) there was literally nothing to go on when the wagon started (I believe it was even pushed pregame), b) there are now lynches that actually have merit to them and c) because Dizzy is a very good player, one that could greatly help the town, especially in later rounds.

Also, guys, if you don't want to call me Richard for fear of confusion, just put GHP on the end of it. I'd prefer that you didn't just put GHP on its own.

Why does C mean that we should not lynch her at all? If she doesn't something scummy would you let her live because she is a good player?

[DeathNote]

~iamausername replaces Dr.Cyanide! Thanks iamausername!~

[dahill1]

The case lies in the motivations he had for doing it. My argument is basically this:

1) He pointed something out to the town
2) The only reason to point something out to the town is that you find it scummy.
3) Since the action was not scummy, it stands to reason that he was attempting to get a misslynch from it, IE get other players to jump on the noob.
4) The fact that he later disavowed himself from this position lends credence to the previous argument.
5) This is as good of something to go off of on day 1 as I've seen in a long while.

2 is wrong in so many ways, and 3 is a major leap. You're grasping at straws here.

Agreein with quag completely.

Also, there seems to be some confusion with Vas as to why in particular he's voting for me. Can you explain Vas? And answer my previous question (if I had voted for someone else besides you would that still be "shifting the attention off of me"?). And a third request while I'm at it, name some specific posts where I'm not contributing, please.

We need to hear from a lot of players still, I feel like only a 6-7 of us are actually discussing stuff.

[Thestatusquo]

yeah, of course you'd say that.

but I agre with you on your last point. Need moar activity and input from a whole lot of players.

[dahill1]

lol is it my fault he posted first? I was literally about to respond to that post in the same exact manner but I decided to read through the thread first

[Thestatusquo]

To be honest, I wrote that post on no sleep in like three days (then basically conked out) read shanbas catagorization of the case, its better than mine.

[Quagmire]

Eh, TSQ's logic is not why i think dahill's action was scummy. For me, it's more like this:

dahill's explanation:

Who said I thought GHP was scummy for it? I'm asking him why he thinks that because it's anti-town.

For a start, he wasn't addressing GHP. He addressed the town. Secondly, his motivation here is supposedly that he wants GHP to understand that this action is anti-town - if that were the case, why wouldn't he just explain to him in the first place rather than making a big song and dance about it?

It would make much more sense if he had thought that GHP was scummy - then he's bringing the issue to the town's attention. But he claimed that wasn't what he was doing.

So I'm left with either the explanation dahill gave, which doesn't seem to fit with his actions, or that he is lying about his motivations.

It's not great, and it's possible I'm misinterpreting something, but I don't think so. Plus, I already mentioned I don't like his move onto the VaVa wagon.

It's not this black-and-white, Shanba. It's not easily summed up as one or the other.

[Thestatusquo]

Cody, nothing in mafia is easily summed up as "one or the other." All actions in mafia are at least somewhat subjective and filled with WIFOM. We make judgement calls based on what we view to be the most likely motivations. This is one such case where I feel strongly that the scum motivation for the action is much more likely than any town one I can think of. The only thing that gives your positions credence in my mind is that DaHill is typically a pretty careless player.

[VasudeVa]

Maybe V/LA: Possibly 3-4 days. Could be longer, could be shorter. Not sure, probably won't be longer than 5 days. Family emergency. Someone's dying/dead, methinks. No internets in that part of this third country, unfortunately.

Promise to catch up when I get back. I'm a little worried that the fire I caught might grow without me, but what can I do? Meatworld calls.

[mipe]

Welcome to the game, iamusername.

Who are your current suspects?

[iamausername]

Welcome to the game, iamusername.

Hi!

Who are your current suspects?

You. Who are yours?

I follow the logic behind the dahill case, but:

Wait..what?
Did anyone else see this? How is not scumhunting productive? Obviously no one will have as good an idea Day 1 as they do each next Day but that shouldn't stop you from trying

Yeah, "did anyone else see this" is obviously directed at the town in general. But the rest of it is directed at Richard, and I can see that dahill might have just been surprised that no one else had said anything about RichG's post. I mean, it's worded slightly oddly if that is the case (I'd expect "did

no one

else see this", as opposed to "did

anyone

else see this"), but I don't think it's nearly as cut and dried as TSQ et al are suggesting.

I'm finding scotmany a lot more suspect, for much the same reasons springlullaby points out in this post. Reading his posts, I don't feel like he actually thinks Vas is scummy, I feel like he thinks he has a good reason to

say

he thinks Vas is scummy.

Vote: scotmany

[Anon]

As I said, my problem with dahill is that I dont see what is the benefit of transmitting an unnecessary fact to the town, unless you are scum and are trying to exploit a potential bad post. I still ask myself that why dahilltown would point out to the rest that someone is antitown but not scummy. It just doesnt make sense in my head, if you dont think someone is scummy you simply dont attack him the way he did.

I maintain that this is by far the best we have. Will reread scotmany later and comment if I find something notable.

[Korts]

I've momentarily lost track of the game, stuck somewhere on the eighth page and with no motivation right now to catch back up.

I promise you some of my time tomorrow.

[Shanba]

Eh, TSQ's logic is not why i think dahill's action was scummy. For me, it's more like this:

dahill's explanation:

Who said I thought GHP was scummy for it? I'm asking him why he thinks that because it's anti-town.

For a start, he wasn't addressing GHP. He addressed the town. Secondly, his motivation here is supposedly that he wants GHP to understand that this action is anti-town - if that were the case, why wouldn't he just explain to him in the first place rather than making a big song and dance about it?

It would make much more sense if he had thought that GHP was scummy - then he's bringing the issue to the town's attention. But he claimed that wasn't what he was doing.

So I'm left with either the explanation dahill gave, which doesn't seem to fit with his actions, or that he is lying about his motivations.

It's not great, and it's possible I'm misinterpreting something, but I don't think so. Plus, I already mentioned I don't like his move onto the VaVa wagon.

It's not this black-and-white, Shanba. It's not easily summed up as one or the other.

Well, the way I see it, the only possible options are as follows:

dahill is telling the truth about his motivations, and is town.
dahill is lying/misguided about his motivations, and is town.
dahill is telling the truth about his motivations, and is scum.
dahill is lying/misguided about his motivations, and is scum.

(a and b, a and not b, not a and b, not a and not b)

The first one I've already said why it looks unlikely to me. The second one - well, how is that possible? Is that what TSQ was referring to when he said dahill was a careless player? So careless he wasn't sure why he was doing something? Third seems the least likely of the bunch but the fourth fits the facts.

I need to reread to draw up a proper response to scot, so that will probably happen some other time.

[dahill1]

As I said, my problem with dahill is that I dont see what is the benefit of transmitting an unnecessary fact to the town, unless you are scum and are trying to exploit a potential bad post. I still ask myself that why dahilltown would point out to the rest that someone is antitown but not scummy. It just doesnt make sense in my head, if you dont think someone is scummy you simply dont attack him the way he did.

I maintain that this is by far the best we have. Will reread scotmany later and comment if I find something notable.

Ok first, someone saying they won't scumhunt day 1 is definitely not an unnecessary fact at all. And why ask why a townie would point out if someone was antitown but not scummy? Why wouldn't they?? Lastly, you say I attacked him. Please explain that because I don't think I've attacked GHP once this game.

[RichardGHP]

Checking in just to say I'm still here. Might go a bit more indepth in the coming days.

[PaltryExcuse]

GAK! So sorry. I've read it, but I haven't created my analysis / answered TSQ's questions. Got busy the past couple days, I'll be on tomorrow.

Again, sorry.

[ksun482]

Dahill: Anti-town's are not necessarily scummy?

[dahill1]

Dahill: Anti-town's are not necessarily scummy?

Yes..

[Thestatusquo]

Because anti town, if you dont think its a scummy is not a useful thing for the town to know. There's no point. Town aren't basing their votes on it, so it's just noise.

[scotmany12]

Because anti town, if you dont think its a scummy is not a useful thing for the town to know. There's no point. Town aren't basing their votes on it, so it's just noise.

Are you saying its not helpful to point out anti-town actions if you don't think they are scummy? Or am I just reading this wrong?

[Thestatusquo]

I think it's helpful to point them out to the people doing them. I think it's pointless to bring them to the towns attention.

[Richard Massive]

I feel like I'm flying under the radar somewhat.