Newbie 906 - Game Over!

For Newbie Games, which have a set format and experienced moderators. Archived during the 2023 queue overhaul.
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Post Post #700 (ISO) » Tue Mar 09, 2010 7:50 pm

Post by Kison »


Day Two: Vote Count


Skill006 (
2
) : PranaDevil, Phaen
jmurph3 (
1
) : Zorblag
Phaen (
1
) : Skill006

Not Voting (
3
) : jammer, jmurph3, RayFrost

With
7
alive, it will take
4
votes to lynch.


The day's deadline is currently set to:
March 23rd, 2010, 11:59:59 PM, EST


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Post Post #701 (ISO) » Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:33 am

Post by Skill006 »

I saw that, jmurph,:
In my fat post I wrote:(I understand there are RL issues, but...)
What I misinterpreted about you, though, was that I thought you're top suspicions were me and jammer (seeing as how you FoS'ed us and everything), but an FoS isn't really a declaration of war or anything. I understand that you haven't had the chance to look at everyone but, based on general feelings and day 1 material (as well as initial suspicions from day 1), who are your top
3
suspicions?

It doesn't seem like prana has anyone else he's very suspicious of.

Can't really tell where Zorblag stands, either. (except that he has suspicion on jmurph).

jammer states why I am scummy and doesn't really take much of a stance.


Here's everyone's colors, btw:
1) Phaen

2) PranaDevil

3) Zorblag

4) jammer

5) jmurph3

6) Skill006

7) RayFrost

(I don't think anyone really cares, but if you want a color switch, just ask)

Anyway...
jammer wrote:was I your primary suspect when you started a case against me?
Kind of. I was mildly suspicious of phaen at the time, as she had just replaced in. (Though I was working on that "experiment" the whole time). But, like I said, I was pretty unsure about my read on you, though I was getting awfully persistent scum vibes from you, and I still am (hence why I put you above jmurph on my list).
jmurph wrote:@Skill: to quote a specific post, click on the little symbol at the very top of the post next to the date and time this was posted. it should take you to the URL for that post, which you can copy and use as you will.
Ah, thank you. I'll try it in my next post, but I have to attend to something right now, sooo...not now.

See ya guys in a bit!
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Post Post #702 (ISO) » Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:29 pm

Post by Skill006 »

:? Inactivity=sadness (guess I shouldn't be talking)

...BAM!

It works!!! (Thanks jmurph!!) --^ Teh defense of myself against teh case on me, or some small parts of it anyway. I didn't realize that I posted this all the way back in day 1 ^.^; If you think its just an excuse for my bad play, I suppose you can ignore it/not post anthing in observation to it, and I suppose I would have to understand why, but I would appreciate it if everyone would at least read it.

I can't think of any other house-keeping chores I needed to take care of... so I'll be off to bed! (btw, PLEASE remind me of any questions you have asked me! Questions=good! And I'm too tired right now to search for any myself)
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Post Post #703 (ISO) » Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:32 pm

Post by Skill006 »

uh, EBWOP to post 701, my question to jmurph shouldn't be, um, askable (I dunno) because of RL issues and the like. But, when you have a chance, jmurph, do you think you could get some suspicions out?
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Post Post #704 (ISO) » Wed Mar 10, 2010 5:49 pm

Post by PranaDevil »

The thing with the defence is it's not so much defence as excuses for why you are doing things. One or two perhaps, but that amount just seems overboard.

you have confidence issues and so are "bad" at scum hunting.

No voting from the RVS (at that point) because of Apathy making us wait? (When... he wasn't, nobody makes us wait really, and that was a long time of not really scum hunting anyway).

You also state you wanted to see redbox's defence before you placed a vote on him (and in the same post vote jammer despite not letting him get a defence out first, severe contradiction there).

The other points are already commented on countless times as well. Safe to say that all together it just seems like a lot of excuses as to why you've not done anything up to that point, and re-reading it just confirms my suspicions more thanks to spotting the redbox/jammer stuff in that post.
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Post Post #705 (ISO) » Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:08 pm

Post by Zorblag »

I figure I should let you guys know that I am still alive and, while not completely up with the game, at least still aware that it's here.

I need to look at what Phaen has to say since she got back in a bit more detail but I suspect that I hadn't gotten the point of my question about fuzzylightning across well.

@Phaen, I accept that you had seen fuzzylightning play that way as town in the past. I was (and largely still am) most interested in what differences in play should be expected if he had been scum instead. His playstyle (at least in the early game) seems to be one that would have served him well if he were scum and hadn't been lynched because of the sort of attitude you were expressing.

At the moment I don't support the Skill006 direction that we're heading in now. I'll take a look at what people are saying and her actions again but things are falling into place really conveniently. I don't trust convenient in a game like mafia.

I'm also not thrilled with yet another claim. The claims shouldn't be coming until someone is about to be lynched. Once someone claims that shouldn't stop the lynch. We've got way too many people who I think are probably town who have claimed at this point which just makes it that much easier for the scum to figure out who any power roles might be.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh
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Post Post #706 (ISO) » Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:17 pm

Post by jmurph3 »

RayFrost wrote:What about me having no preference makes you uncomfy?

Also, I think they are equally scummy especially considering they are scummy for the same things, imo.

So yeh.

And not really.
It makes me uncomfy because at this point in the game, I want to be able to have a more solid ground to go off of than simply you having no preference and going with what two others are saying, particularly as we're inching closer to a lynch.

I want to be more sure than to base a lynch off of that line of reasoning, because that seems pretty poor to me, especially looking at the statistics. If we mis-lynch today, and if scum get a night kill tonight, then that leaves us with 2 scum and 3 town. And I personally don't like those odds.

Also, I take it to mean that your last statement, not really, is that you don't have anything for your case outside of the fact that Skill/jammer are not posting a lot/a lot of content. This also makes me uncomfortable. I said it before, and I'll say it again, I need more than that to get me to a point where I'm comfortable lynching anyone.

@
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Post Post #707 (ISO) » Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:40 pm

Post by jmurph3 »

EBWOP posted again without finishing what I was trying to say.

@Skill: I don't know if I have 3 top suspicions at the moment, so if acceptable, I'd like to throw out a few of my observations at this point.

You asked:
Skill006 wrote:I understand that you haven't had the chance to look at everyone but, based on general feelings and day 1 material (as well as initial suspicions from day 1), who are your top
3
suspicions?
I don't have a top 3 right now, but here's what I've observed for Day 2 (sorry that I wasn't able to go back through and link to posts/quote, etc.).

-Skill - has obviously posted mostly defense at this point (understandably, given the circumstances). Some wishy-washyness regarding her intentions with jammer (didn't want to make him seem scummy, but she still suspects him, etc.). Slings a case at Phaen, with some valid points made. has actually stuck to a vote for a little bit now, which is improvement over D1.

-Phaen - seemed awfully quick to get Skill to L-1 without adding much of her own analysis/relying on what's already been said by Prana and Ray. I'm certainly not one to talk, given my propensity for this :lol: , but I want to see more of her argument before I can decide more.

-Zorb - he's right in saying that the suspicion on Apathy should carry over, and I personally want to do a little more analysis before I say much. The WIFOM argument is killing me though; on the one hand, why would scum tell town to look closer at them? On the other hand, that's such a perfect ruse for scum to use...really throwing me off, as now I feel like I can't get a good read.

-Ray - seems perfectly content to lynch based simply on inactivity. This to me can fly on D1 (most everyone stated during D1 that it's second best to kill useless town), but not so much on D2 when we're down two townies. This is not necessarily scummy in and of itself, just something where I'd like to see a bit of a stronger case.

-jammer - seems to be flying under the radar a bit. Dropped in a few days ago to summarize the case on Skill and add that he sees a Skill/Zorb scum team as possible, and hasn't posted since. Perhaps stoking the fire on the Skill case without having to vote/add to it? Need to check on a few things from D1 before I have more to say.

-Prana - Started case on Skill immediately after she called him out on what she saw as being opportunistic. Not sure how much of the stuff on Skill truly carried over from D1 (D1 stuff seemed to be mostly about not posting and the case on jammer). Had added to case with stuff Skill has said during D2. Possibly tunneling? Not sure if he's stated any others that he's looking at.

@Zorb:
Zorblag wrote:At the moment I don't support the Skill006 direction that we're heading in now. I'll take a look at what people are saying and her actions again but things are falling into place really conveniently. I don't trust convenient in a game like mafia.
Agreed. Who do you have suspicions of (besides me)?
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Post Post #708 (ISO) » Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:31 am

Post by PranaDevil »

jmurph3 wrote:-Prana - Started case on Skill immediately after she called him out on what she saw as being opportunistic. Not sure how much of the stuff on Skill truly carried over from D1 (D1 stuff seemed to be mostly about not posting and the case on jammer). Had added to case with stuff Skill has said during D2. Possibly tunneling? Not sure if he's stated any others that he's looking at.
The problem I have is that, outside of Skill, the other major cases appear to be Phaen and jammer. Which to me is pretty much "hasn't posted much, posts pretty much nothing of importance when they do", which definitely doesn't help us in any way.

Zorb, I agree, the case on him is now into WIFOM position which makes it really hard to judge. Is he scum playing a risky game? Is he town trying to prove he is in a risky way? My actual take on it is more "Whatever your play is, as an IC I feel this would still be the best play". So I'm reading it more as good advice to take with us for future reference, than something specific to this game. Of course, if that's the issue, we tread right back into WIFOM territory in the "do we go and lynch him because it's good advice as he's scum, or do we hold back as he wouldn't give us that hint until after the game if he was scum?" In regards to that... I find it best to not consider that at all, and therefore (like I say) use it as good reference in the future on all games, but don't treat it with anything as far as this specific game is concerned.

jmurph, I had suspicions on previously, but has picked up the scum hunting, so is either scum realizing she has to appear more pro-town, or is town just getting to do more now.

Ray I'm still unsure on, I've changed my stance on him a couple of times, and the jammer/skill not caring about which may seem somewhat scummy at a glance, but I was in a similar position with Apathy/fuzzy, they both appeared equally scummy for different reasons. If I'm totally honest I feel an Apathy replacement that late in the day was a mistake. In my view Apathy was almost lynched, and had he stayed he would have been regardless. Bringing in Zorb meant we had to wait to let him catch up, and it possibly shook things up badly.

Now, if Apathy/Zorb is scum, it's negatively impacted the town... if Apathy/Zorb was town... it's still negatively impacted the town as we would have still lynched a town player, but wouldn't have this huge WIFOM dealio hanging in front of us. Personally if someone requests replacement just a few days from deadline, it should be held up until after day is dealt with (someone can always replace in during night phase (to use night actions and such)).

But again, that doesn't help us in the here and now, and I digressed from my point. My point is that not caring which of your top two suspects is lynched isn't necessarily scummy. Having poor reasoning for it would be scummy. In that vein, I've given a reasonably good case against Skill so far, but I'm only seeing a moderately sized one on jammer, and being that Ray stated he would prefer the jammer lynch, I want to ask Ray to state a full case on jammer to show why he feels jammer would be more worthy of the lynch than Skill.

As for Skill, well I wouldn't agree with Zorb that it's "convenient" (I bet I typoed that too...), taking everything from D1, does nobody else get the feeling of it being a lot of "I haven't done that because" all the way through, with little to no scum hunting? Then today she started off pointing a finger in my direction because I was "opportunistic"... on lynches I had been pushing for? It's the exact opposite of the definition of the word. If I had been opportunistic I would have voted to put them at L1 without a serious reason. Factor in my recent spot of the extremely blatant contradictions in play style regarding her votes on redbox and jammer, and I'm failing to see how there's been any consistancy in her play.

Now, obviously there's 2 scum out there, and I strongly feel Skill is one half of that team. As for who else I think is scum? Well I still suspect everyone to some extent, but my top would be the Phaen/jammer stuff due to a lack of really getting involved (scum would, indeed, love to keep out of the way while town argue amongst themselves, and just throwing the final vote in quickly at the end.)

I also believe Zorb could still be scum, in fact, thinking on it, the WIFOM was possibly deliberate. Consider that Zorb had come in and had, what? 48 hours (or was it less?) to make a case for himself to stay alive, and/or push the case on someone else. Now, town or scum, he was going to pick the next best lynch and push for it hard. That goes without saying, but perhaps the blatant WIFOM was a deliberate red herring to throw us well off his trail? I'd like to hear other people's opinions on this. But what do people think of Zorb posting what amounted to "you should still have pushed for my lynch" as being a deliberate attempt to put WIFOM out there to basically prevent us getting a read on him now? He isn't an idiot after all, as he mods games here too. So for an experienced player, that could well be a clever ruse to throw, in essence, a smoke screen over everything.

Apologies for the exceptionally long post.
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Post Post #709 (ISO) » Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:13 pm

Post by Skill006 »

prana wrote:Then today she started off pointing a finger in my direction because I was "opportunistic"... on lynches I had been pushing for? It's the exact opposite of the definition of the word. If I had been opportunistic I would have voted to put them at L1 without a serious reason. Factor in my recent spot of the extremely blatant contradictions in play style regarding her votes on redbox and jammer, and I'm failing to see how there's been any consistancy in her play.
I wasn't exactly "pointing a finger" at you. I was bringing it up as a suggestion of your tactic. And I wanted to see how you would respond to it. You got WAY too worked up about it. :?
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Post Post #710 (ISO) » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:28 pm

Post by Skill006 »

phaen wrote:You know what? vote: Skill

This game is going quite slow enough.
I've slept on it and the more I think about it the more sure I am.
Lynching me will only speed things up if you're scum.
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Post Post #711 (ISO) » Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:51 pm

Post by PranaDevil »

I wouldn't say I got worked up about it, just pointed out (strongly) that scum would be wanting to try and show up someone else negatively, despite the actuality of it being different. You claimed one thing, and were proven that what you were claiming, and what actually happened, were not one and the same.

As for phaen. Some people prefer shorter day phases (In all honesty, I'm one of them, I find with a 3 week day phase, yes a lot gets said, but by the end of week 3, you've forgotten a lot of what was said at the start of week 1). So I would hardly say speeding things up only works if you're scum (I just saw scum lynched with a day phase that lasted under 24 hours no less. That one damned sure didn't help scum).

Although, if you want a more solid reason that it's scummy, perhaps pointing out that wanting to speed the game up, despite posting next to nothing yourself (talking about phaen) does nothing to help the game pick up speed, only slow it down. So in that sense it's like saying "I want the game to move fast, but I don't want to help it do so". Which, in that instance, only helps if they are scum.
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Post Post #712 (ISO) » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:20 pm

Post by Skill006 »

prana wrote:I wouldn't say I got worked up about it, just pointed out (strongly) that scum would be wanting to try and show up someone else negatively, despite the actuality of it being different. You claimed one thing, and were proven that what you were claiming, and what actually happened, were not one and the same.
At the time, I thought it would have been kind of oppurtunistic for you to have switched to a more popular BW (fuzzy) so that he could be lynched. When I actually look back, though, I see that fuzzy had the same amount of "popular-ness", and it wasn't really "oppurtunistic", like you said, unless you were psycic about what was to come next. The details were meshing in my mind. :|

At any rate, I have no way of telling if you're scum buddies with troll and you just wanted to quickly switch over to fuzzy. Not that I think you are, but its always a possibility.
prana wrote:Some people prefer shorter day phases (In all honesty, I'm one of them, I find with a 3 week day phase, yes a lot gets said, but by the end of week 3, you've forgotten a lot of what was said at the start of week 1). So I would hardly say speeding things up only works if you're scum (I just saw scum lynched with a day phase that lasted under 24 hours no less. That one damned sure didn't help scum).
That's why I said "lynching
me
" :) . Quick days probably work in other situations, but...I wouldn't say this day is long, just slow in RL days. Also, people seem to be having a hard time establishing reads, so I can hardly see why lynching me would help, especially how she puts it.

Essentially, wouldn't you guys just go back to square one if you lynch me so quickly? (well, maybe it doesn't seem quick to you guys, but it seems quick to me :|) Not only that, but you would have less town in the game, whether I'm scum or not. (Like jmurph said, not exactly odds I would want me or you guys to throw yourselves into).

From what I've seen, day 3 with no scum dead always plummet downhill from there. Just a warning, don't need to heed it if you guys
really really really
think I'm scum. And, honestly, it feels like the people pressing for my lynch are just desperate for any lynch. Not because the case on me is bad, because its not, but because there's a lack of a real search for other scumtells from other people.

...O_O prana's rambling is rubbing off on me...
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Post Post #713 (ISO) » Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:24 pm

Post by Skill006 »

prana wrote:Although, if you want a more solid reason that it's scummy, perhaps pointing out that wanting to speed the game up, despite posting next to nothing yourself (talking about phaen) does nothing to help the game pick up speed, only slow it down. So in that sense it's like saying "I want the game to move fast, but I don't want to help it do so". Which, in that instance, only helps if they are scum.
...This is a good way to look at it. I didn't put it into perspective like that.

Prana, what's your read on phaen?
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Post Post #714 (ISO) » Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:20 pm

Post by Zorblag »

So there seems to be some confusion about what my intent is in this game. Let's see if I can clear it up to some degree. Although I'm not going out of my way to get killed I'm certainly not here to stay alive. When fuzzylightning got lynched instead of me yesterday there wasn't any particular sort of relief that I hadn't been lynched. I did think that we had lynched the player who I was most suspicious of given my brief read but as I've said I wouldn't have minded if it was me getting lynched there instead if that had been what had happened.

When you get right down to it I'm not needed to get scum lynched which is the only thing that matter long term. In my town games up till here I've gotten night killed or lynched 9 times. The town has come through to win 8 of those for me after I was gone. When I've not been lynched or night killed town is just 3 and 5.

My survival is only important to me in-so-far as it's better from my point of view to lynch others who have a decent chance of being scum than it is to lynch me and while I'm here I've got a chance to point things out that might help catch scum. I don't particularly care whether my trying to get to the bottom of why I (Apathy) went from being a prime candidate for a lynch to not having received any votes or really any real pressure today makes me look good or bad. Looking good or bad isn't what I'm here to do.

@Skill006, why didin't you care for my question as to whether Phaen had been your number one suspect? Do you think that it was clearer than I had thought? Is there some reason that you didn't want to let us know who it was after you had voted? What is it that you think I did to make my victim (I assume fuzzylightning?) look scummier (as per Post 696)?

@PranaDevil, when I say that things are falling in to place too conveniently with Skill006 I don't mean that I don't see where individual cases are coming from. In some cases I do. I think I said earlier that I could see what people didn't like about her day one play and I stand by that. What I don't like today is how easily everyone is lining up in the same direction (yet again for this town.)

I'm a bit confused about why you think that Skill006 would have held back on being part of the lynch if it had come back as an issue at the end of the day day one. She was at that point on record as thinking that fuzzylightning was a reasonable lynch and clearly aware of the deadline. If she's scum as you seem to think I don't see how she should have motivation to stay off the lynch at that point. It would involve passing on having a mislynch happen in a way that drew negative attention to herself the next day which just doesn't fit scum motivation.

@Phaen, what I've just said to PranaDevil applies to you as well. Why would a scum Skill006 hope against hope for a no lynch in that case when it would prevent a mislynch and make her stick out in a negative way?

@jmurph3, I hadn't meant to keep my suspicions in the dark. Other than you my biggest suspect is still Phaen. I'd been waiting for her to post so that I could get some reactions before saying much but now that she has I'll talk about her some tomorrow (I'd do it now but I need to get to another game or two tonight and it's already getting to be a bit late.) Past the two of you I've become less comfortable with RayFrost based on our recent conversations and how his attention seems to be focused.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh
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Post Post #715 (ISO) » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:30 pm

Post by PranaDevil »

Skill006 wrote:Essentially, wouldn't you guys just go back to square one if you lynch me so quickly? (well, maybe it doesn't seem quick to you guys, but it seems quick to me :|) Not only that, but you would have less town in the game, whether I'm scum or not. (Like jmurph said, not exactly odds I would want me or you guys to throw yourselves into).
I... really have absolutely no idea where you are coming from here.

The part that throws me so much is "you would have less town in the game, whether I'm scum or not." Which... makes no sense.

If you are scum, and we lynch you, we would have less town in the game? Well... if you're basing it off night phase killing a town player, then sure, but that happens whether we lynch someone right now, or whether we lynch someone in a week.

As for my read on Phaen, I need to go back and re-read everything she's posted to do so before I can decide that. But I shall do so a.s.a.p.

@Zorblag, I think with the Skill thing, you make a halfway decent point, but there's the fact that by the time things came to a head, we had enough people set to lynch fuzzy (He was at L-2, and it was known by all that myself and you were all ready to cast the final votes after he stated his case, unless someone suddenly unvoted Skill was unlikely to need to cast a deciding vote anyway).

Also, you'll note I've never said that Skill would have wanted a no lynch, just that she didn't want to be on a lynch so as to avoid drawing suspicion, as she kept herself well away from any votes that might be seen as being on someone when they were lynched (and in fact after it was pointed out she hadn't voted, cast a vote on a safe player, instead of anywhere that would be useful).

But still, right now there's a couple of things that need checking by me again, and I'm not going to be around until tomorrow night most likely, so to hopefully avoid a lynch before I get chance to do the checking I need, I'm going to...

unvote


Until I've done what I need to.
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Post Post #716 (ISO) » Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:38 pm

Post by Kison »

Prodding jammer.
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Post Post #717 (ISO) » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:27 pm

Post by RayFrost »

Kison wrote:
Prodding jammer.
Prod me while you are at it.
don't you feel silly now?
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Post Post #718 (ISO) » Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:54 am

Post by Zorblag »

@PranaDevil, while you didn't ever explicitly say that you thought Skill006 was looking for a no lynch yesterday it really seems like you must have thought it when you said:
PranaDevil in 677 wrote:Except I have commented on your defenses in general, however if your defense isn't really all that good, and just is an obvious excuse for bad play (such as not jumping on bandwagons at all, and no, I wont consider you on fuzzy's, as you only jumped on it when it was as good as obvious he was going to be lynched, and not earlier, as when Zorblag was waiting on fuzzy's response, I was too, and thus my vote and his vote put him at lynch, and I highly doubt you would have voted had someone else pulled their vote out. Hence why it's convenient that the one, and only, time you actively stated you would be ready to lynch someone, is when they were basically lynched already).
You're talking about the last couple hours of the day when it's not at all clear that others are going to be about. If someone had pulled their vote off and Skill006 hadn't cast her vote for fuzzylightning (like you say you think she wouldn't have) then it would probably have led to a no lynch.

Perhaps I'm reading something wrong there or I'm not seeing the reasoning that you're using but at this point I'm taking away the idea that you think that a scum Skill006 would have prefered a no lynch on day one to her being part of a lynch on a town fuzzylightning.

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Post Post #719 (ISO) » Fri Mar 12, 2010 10:54 am

Post by Skill006 »

troll wrote:@Skill006, why didin't you care for my question as to whether Phaen had been your number one suspect? Do you think that it was clearer than I had thought?
But I did care... :)
troll wrote:What is it that you think I did to make my victim (I assume fuzzylightning?) look scummier (as per Post 696)?
... :? I don't recall saying anything like that. I'm not even sure what this refers to in that post...could you clarify?
troll wrote:Is there some reason that you didn't want to let us know who it was after you had voted?
If you're referring to my phaen vote, I wanted to see how phaen would react. That's all. :)
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Post Post #720 (ISO) » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:05 am

Post by Skill006 »

prana wrote:If you are scum, and we lynch you, we would have less town in the game? Well... if you're basing it off night phase killing a town player, then sure, but that happens whether we lynch someone right now, or whether we lynch someone in a week.
Oh...you're right ^.^; (Stupid me...)

Anyhow, that was the less important part of my post. The more important part is, you wouldn't have much info based off of my lynch, just like fuzzy's lynch hasn't helped us much.

Sure, you would know my role (which wouldn't help you), but I feel like not much has been accomplished today other than establishing the case on me. I'm not the only person around; sure, I may be the scummiest in your eyes, but its easier to sneak on a BW and get a mislynch going.
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Post Post #721 (ISO) » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:09 am

Post by Zorblag »

@Skill006, yes, you didn't like my question about Phaen being your number one suspect. That was what I was trying to figure out the reason for. The link you're giving is exactly what I don't understand. Not caring for something typically means not liking it (though I am a bit too fond of colloquialisms from time to time.)

The bit about my making a victim look scummier came from Post 696 where you said:
Skill006 wrote:I didn't say "make
town
look scummy". Some town players make their victims look scummier (like troll did), or make them look like scum. I'm clarifying that it wasn't my intention to do so.
I'm mostly curious about what you had in mind there.

My question about whether you had a reason not to want to let us know [who your top suspect was] even after voting for Phaen wasn't so much a question about why you were voting for Phaen (I'm fine with that though that you're now saying it was for reactions is slightly surprising) so much as it was an attempt to figure out why you wouldn't want to discuss who your top suspect was. Originally there might have been some reason to want to keep that vague but it seemed like you were confirming that it was Phaen at some point and once the vote was cast I couldn't see the benefit in keeping it a mystery anymore.

Regarding your most recent post, I actually disagree about the information that we'd get from a lynch of you if you're town. I don't think that you're likely to be scum but I do think that we'd have useful information in terms of who was and wasn't pushing your lynch. To some degree we've got that from fuzzylightning as well. Putting that sort of information together is what Town needs to do at the end of the game to pull out a win. It'd much better if we lynched scum at this point but we would gain information regardless.

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Post Post #722 (ISO) » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:33 am

Post by Zorblag »

So I had been planning on typing up what it was I didn't like about Phaen's play but, really, much of what I have to say has already been said. In particular, Skill006 said this back in Post 696. It didn't get much reaction from anyone that I noticed but it's really on the mark.
Skill006 wrote:
Phaen
, # 1 suspect: Her early posts were recuonting all of the events as if she were there. Nothing wrong with that, but seemed like a crutch for her posts. And a good first impression to dissuade the early tidings of a BW on redbox.

After she dropped the recollecting of the posts (right before the ray/prana pitchoff...?), she went into tunneling on apathy, and never really stated much suspicion on anyone else. When she said she wanted to jump right into the game, I didn't mind. However, all she really did was battle with apathy, and push for his lynch. There wasn't anything much in the way of scumhunting (by my definition, anyway), except for attacking apathy's "rubbish" stuff.

Here's another thing I found interesting from the BW on me, and I doubt it would've come up if there hadn't been one on me: phaen has really mellowed down on the troll case.
On day 1, she said that the player slot is definitely scum, and we should just lynch apathy, and was completely against a troll replacement. However, now that he has replaced in, she stopped her lynch parade. Apparently, "I'm more scummy than apathy ever was." That's hard to imagine, just from me not hammering (since you didn't have a scum read on me day 1). Not only that, but she has made little attempt to see if her beliefs about apathy being scum day 1 were correct, and has proceeded to push aside troll (well, not completely, of course, but I seem to be the only lynch for today).

She just attacks from a safe distance, in a way. Some attacks on apathy (popular at the time, so not much trouble there), then attacks me (popular, so no trouble there). As long as her attacks are substantial, she can just shuffle with the crowd, and pass under suspicion.

Lastly, with all this latest heat on me, it seems like she just wants me quicklynched (vote put me to l-1, dood) without much of any confirmation of a read on troll. More discussion helps town, right? (apparently not :( This town is a lot diff. from my last, but I still feel more discussion helps.)

@phaen: Are you suspicious of Ray?
What is your read on troll? (do you think he himself is scummy, do you think he is doing a good job making himself look town, do you think you were wrong in your read of apathy?)
Phaen seems to have gotten some town credit to offset what people were thinking about redbox just by replacing in and being active. That's a pretty common reaction to someone replacing into newbie games (and to a lesser degree games in general here.) As I'm sure you've already noticed I got that same sort of reaction when I replaced in. On the whole it should be much more of a null tell than people take it to be.

I've been trying to get Phaen to explain why she was so reluctant to find fuzzylightning town because I don't see a good reason for it. I don't feel like she's been looking at the overall play of everyone in the game so much as she's been focused on the players that are under the most pressure at the time with the notable exception of fuzzylightning. As town she probably should have been less willing to write fuzzylightning off as town than she was. If she's scum she would have know that he was town and that would account for the strength of her conviction.

Her opinion about my player spot doesn't seem to be settled well at all. If she was reasonably convinced that Apathy's play was scummy then she should be continuing to put pressure on me. If she wasn't that convinced then her play day one was a misrepresentation of her views. I don't have a strong recollection of her having problems with Skill006's play yesterday (we had neutral reads up till the very end of the day when Skill006 fairly suddenly made the tail end of her suspect list) but now she's going where the pressure is.

I recognize that opinions change. That's a part of the game and I want members of the town to be evaluating their opinions regularly to make sure they're still consistent with the facts (it's very rare to have everything right right from the start.) On the other hand, opinions changing to go along with the latest wagon for reasons that aren't compelling (while PranaDevil didn't explicitly say that he thought Skill006 was looking for a no lynch Phaen actually has which doesn't make any sense to me) is a big flag for me.

I'd still be down with a jmurph3 lynch at this point but I'm going to switch over to Phaen in the interest of having a second wagon which I feel has a better chance of hitting scum than the Skill006 one does.

Vote: Phaen


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Post Post #723 (ISO) » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:39 am

Post by Skill006 »

troll wrote:yes, you didn't like my question about Phaen being your number one suspect. That was what I was trying to figure out the reason for. The link you're giving is exactly what I don't understand. Not caring for something typically means not liking it (though I am a bit too fond of colloquialisms from time to time.)
Sorry, I misunderstood your question, I thought you were asking why I didn't answer that question at all.

I only didn't care for answering it because I was in the middle of trying to see phaen's reaction to my "random vote" (which wasn't random, but I intentionally made it seem that way, obviously). However, by answering your question I made it seem like an "un-random vote".
troll wrote:I'm mostly curious about what you had in mind there.
That was just in reference to your example you gave us day 1, where you made your case on yankee look stronger than it was. Sorry, I take bad brain classes, so my thoughts don't get out in the way I would like them to sometimes (I'm not very clear-headed).

I suppose you could get some info out of my lynch, and you're right, it would be very hard to hit scum dead on, even on day 2. It just feels like there are more things we could get done now than we could if we hurried and lynched me (such as collecting reads on people).
troll wrote:Originally there might have been some reason to want to keep that vague but it seemed like you were confirming that it was Phaen at some point and once the vote was cast I couldn't see the benefit in keeping it a mystery anymore.
I don't recall confirming my suspicions on phaen prior to my vote

Are you talking about when I answered your question? I think that was the only time I really said anything about phaen, until I pulled out my actual case. The reason why I didn't pull out my whole case right then was becasue I thought my reaction-fishing would still be somewhat effective since I didn't state my case, just that she was at the top.
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Post Post #724 (ISO) » Fri Mar 12, 2010 11:57 am

Post by Zorblag »

@Skill006, I see what you meant about Yankee as a victim. I'd forgotten that I'd brought that up this game but that makes more sense now. I also now see what you were doing regarding Phaen. I was doing something of the same myself (in that I was trying to get reactions from her before putting my thoughts out there.) The trouble for me was that I don't expect to see any random votes day two and beyond and your motives seemed like they were fairly clear. I was at that point just trying to confirm that your reasoning was in fact what I thought was most likely and I didn't understand why you'd want to hold back on sharing it.

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