Mini 918 - A Hot, Steaming Bowl of Mafia - Game Over!

[d3x]

@Zach- If you have anything you want to say, I suggest you say it. I'm waiting for C.C tomorrow and then I'm Hammering.

[Locke Lamora]

Sorry everyone, no internet all weekend. I don't see any

I'm really getting a scummy read from d3x. He appears to agree wholeheartedly with myself and CC over charter, which bothers me somehow.

BH: Hoopla was the only one who actually called your hammer scummy. It wouldn't surprise me if one of those quotes was scum taking a really easy chance to put pressure on you for the next day (completely justifiably, of course, as you shouldn't have hammered). My personal instinct at the time was that it was a bad townie hammer. It's not really worth debating the point, though, as it is WIFOM and you could have made the same mistake as scum and possibly not even realised the heat you'd get from it.

I don't really like all this 'conversation is dead, let's hammer'. If everyone's tired of talking about whether charter's scum or not, how about you all give me some thoughts on d3x?

Unvote

[Col.Cathart]

Whoa there people. I appreciate that people like to hear my thoughts before making decisions, but I was going to answer Charter's question why I'm going to keep my vote on him (the short answer is: track result again. The thing you did which was scummy was targeting Shotty during the night he died. It's up to us to whether believe in your claim or not, and I don't). No reason to wait with any decision

Anyway, since LL came out with it and put charter out of L-1 with d3x thing: I wanted to keep it for myself for some time, but since you're asking, my plan for the next night (if scum would kill someone else again for some reason), is to track exactly d3x. Again, like with charter - I have uneasy gut feelings about him, especially his zeal against the lurkers. I don't know how to express it, but I feel... He want to lynch them 'too much' if you know what I mean.

[d3x]

@Anyone thinking of Hammering Hoopla before the discussion of using her Shot before the Lynch is finished- Don't. You will be dubbed Scum and I will do everything in my power to see you lynched.

I wouldn't be so fast to say that Hoopla was the only one who called the Hammer scummy, LL. This was the post immediately before Bio Hammered.

Regarding the suspicion on me, that's completely fine. If it brings about discussion, I'm all for it.

I find it really odd that you guys would fight to get charter at L-1 and then have a problem with someone stating their intent to Hammer once everyone's had their say, but whatever.

I'm really getting a scummy read from d3x. He appears to agree wholeheartedly with myself and CC over charter, which bothers me somehow.

This is interesting to me. I 'agree wholeheartedly'? I just went back and looked at the reasons you've stated for Voting charter, and they seem to mostly stem from his choice of how to handle Shotty and the protection on C.C. Did you read my reasons for the intent to Hammer? None of them even touch on these points.

[Zachrulez]

@Zach- If you have anything you want to say, I suggest you say it. I'm waiting for C.C tomorrow and then I'm Hammering.

Sorry, I was out for the weekend.

I don't see any issue with hammering Charter at this point. Locke's reasoning for unvoting and his points against you just don't make any sense to me at all. His latest actions are just adding to my uneasy feeling of him, as it just feels like an attempt to stall a Charter lynch (who's clearly the most suspicious player.) and cast suspicion on someone else.

Vote: Charter

That puts him back at lynch -1.

[Locke Lamora]

I don't know what CC's view is, but just because I'm arguing for the charter lynch doesn't mean I want us to only discuss the charter lynch and then decide there's nothing else to do but hammer. Considering we have two player slots we knew next to nothing about after D1, I think we should use our extra time to get to know them better and gain some more information about everyone.

You make a valid point. Wholeheartedly was a bad choice of word. I got the impression that you feel the same way about charter in the sense that you really don't like the thought of letting someone live who has already been tracked to a kill and who could just generate even more WIFOM tomorrow.

I've been pondering this today: what about no lynch and charter vigs? I know that's bad information wise, but consider the possibilities:

Two townies die - we're in LyLo but charter is confirmed (providing everyone agrees scum don't have an additional kill). Potential for CC to track another player if scum choose to kill charter (depending on kill resolution method this might only lead to one death).

One townie, one scum dies - we're in a 4-1 situation, charter is confirmed and either CC (with a result) or charter will still be alive. Another lynch available before LyLo.

One townie dies - either charter is lying, charter and scum both chose to kill the same player or scum chose to no kill and charter missed. Puts us in a 4-2 situation but CC is unlikely to die and we could no lynch again. This is worse if charter is scum but great if charter is town, as scum then have to kill either him or CC and one of them will definitely be in endgame with a result.

One scum dies - either scum gambled on the no kill or theirs was blocked. Charter is confirmed town and CC is alive with a result. Town can then lynch freely and Charter and CC can investigate/track two of the remaining players, virtually guaranteeing a win.

This is all with the fact that there may be some kind of protective role involved. I'm assuming this is what scum were scared about when they decided not to kill CC last night.

[Locke Lamora]

Sorry, should have used preview.

Zach: you think I'm scummy because I don't want to end the day way before deadline? What happened to this?

With all that said, I'm gonna

FOS

charter for now, but I hold off turning that into a vote until the town is satisfied with the discussion for the day so that an opportunity for another quick hammer isn't opened up.

[Zachrulez]

I think there is a much clearer consensus on Charter now.

[Zachrulez]

Plus on top of that Charter sat at lynch -1 for a decent amount of time despite my position and was not quick hammered... so... yeah.

[d3x]

There are a bunch of problems that I see with the above plan {not to mention the fact that I'm pretty sure we already discussed this and shot it down, read p303 and 304}.

The biggest I'm seeing is this: what if charter is one of 2 Scum left? I know what I'd do in that situation as Scum. Have charter NK the other Scum. I can't find anywhere in the rules that this is not allowed and this 'confirms' charter as the JOAT with no other provable abilities left.

That

my friends is a very easy Scum victory. He then 'uses' his last ability as the Cop to setup either the MyLo or says he got an innocent read on someone or even just claims that he was blocked.

The more I think about this, the more I think that we pretty much have to Lynch charter today. I'm ok waiting until closer to deadline, giving us a chance to discuss things, on the provision that we

are

going to discuss things.

First among my list of things I'd like to discuss is our brace of lurkers. I think I have some questions floating around here for them that I don't think have yet been answered. I'll see if I can find them again. Second, I'd like to look into your knee-jerk reaction and gutScum read on me. I hope you're not planning on just dropping it after my single response and Zach's pushback. That would be very suspicious, imo.

[d3x]

Bio- If you come in here and Hammer charter in your next post I

swear

I'll come find you.

[Bio Hazard]

Let's look at d3x Day 1, then.

He votes MIC in his first post. I'm not sure if it's random or not. After that, he argues with RC, without ever getting on the RC wagon. But if he had done so, he would have been putting RC at L1 on page 3, so I don't think that's scummy. He keeps his vote on MIC the whole day.

Overall, I don't see anything scummy from d3x day 1 or day 2, does anyone else?

Roleclaim aside, what does everyone think of charter's play day 1?

[charter]

No lynching is a bad idea. Lynching someone other than me is a good idea.

Really nothing else to say.

[Locke Lamora]

d3x: that's your main concern? I was more worried about if charter was scum, there was only one townie killed and we were left with the same WIFOM we have today but with fewer townies. I still don't think that's as much of a problem as was previously suggested. Scum still have tricky decisions to make in that scenario. Let's say charter kills his scumbuddy. First of all, CC would get to live, giving him another opportunity to track and tell us the result. Charter's left on his own against 5 townies and he would have to claim he investigated on N4. He can't claim he was blocked because the roleblocker's dead, CC could track him again to check who he investigates and if he did decide to finally kill CC this time, there still could be a protection role, which would leave us with no kill and charter confirmed as the remaining scum. I just don't see why scum would go for that over the opportunity to create more confusion over charter's role. I don't think it's as easy a win as you suggest.

As for my gutScum read, I've been harbouring it for a while. I never really saw why you couldn't be MIC's scumbuddy after D1 and there's just something about your choice of targets and the way you've gone after them that seems off to me. I think CC makes a good point about you wanting to lynch the lurkers a bit too eagerly.

The more I read Zach's vote on charter, the less I like it. Why doesn't it make sense that I want the day to last longer? Why does he think me not wanting to lynch charter right now is scummy? It really bothers me that he suggests he's happy to wait for the town to discuss more before we lynch and then as soon as I look like I'm not desperate to lynch charter right away, he puts him back at L-1 and calls for the hammer.

CC: I'm interested. We seem to agree on a lot of points and you don't appear to find me even the slightest bit scummy (or if you have, you haven't shown it). Why is that?

[Col.Cathart]

CC: I'm interested. We seem to agree on a lot of points and you don't appear to find me even the slightest bit scummy (or if you have, you haven't shown it). Why is that?

What kind of question is this? I don't see your current behavior as sheeping or parroting me, and I found your D1 play quite town. I have no reason to suspect you, at least for now. If anything, this question was the biggest eyebrow raiser for me. What are you trying to accomplish with that question?

[Locke Lamora]

I've been called scummy from several directions today and I seem to make it onto most people's scumlists somewhere. As far as I can tell, you've had a town read on me pretty much all game. It's quite reminiscent of last time I played with you, except you're confirmed town this time. I'm also wondering who might be scum trying to capitalise on suspicion on me and who's just genuinely suspicious town, so it got me thinking about you not seeming to suspect me at all.

[d3x]

LL- The easy Scum victory...

There are 7 currently living players.
Let's assume Scum charter and 1 other Scum.

D3- No Lynch- 7 players
N3- charter NKs his partner- 6 players
D4- we mislynch {there's no way we'd Lynch charter after a 'successful' demonstration of his Vig}- 5 players
N4- charter probably NKs C.C- 4 players and we're in MyLo
D5- charter claims that he used his 'investigation' against any of the 3 leftovers- due to his previous success, we have no reason to doubt him, we mislynch- 3 players
N5- charter NKs whoever- 2 players, Scum win

Are you telling me that after hypoScumcharter sets himself up with a successfull Vig we would lynch him? In this scenario, if C.C tracks charter tonight, he'd confirm the NK from charter. Or that after he 'proves' his PR that we wouldn't believe his investigation? C.C would in all likelyhood be NKed before he could give us his result for tomorrow night. How is this

not

a major concern to you? I'd love to be able to bank on a protective PR in this game but the fact remains, there's nothing that suggests one. We have to play this out as though we don't have one.

I think CC makes a good point about you wanting to lynch the lurkers a bit too eagerly.

Do you have a solid read on either lurker? Are you comfortable with either of them in an End Game LyLo scenario? Also note, my push for lurker lynches was before I realized the potential of hypoScumcharter left alive tonight with the plan I just outlined.

[d3x]

EBWOP- N4 should be LyLo, not MyLo.

[RedCoyote]

I'm really getting a scummy read from d3x. He appears to agree wholeheartedly with myself and CC over charter, which bothers me somehow.

In other words, "Let's all go back to the drawing board, anyone could be scum!"

I don't really like all this 'conversation is dead, let's hammer'. If everyone's tired of talking about whether charter's scum or not, how about you all give me some thoughts on d3x?

I think he's pretty clean. I've had no real problems with d3x or you this game. I don't exactly know what to make of your sudden change of heart though. I thought you were worried that charter would shoot you if we left him alive. What gives?

I've been pondering this today: what about no lynch and charter vigs? I know that's bad information wise, but consider the possibilities

Alright, now we definitely have to back up, because you're really starting to contradict yourself:

I'm paranoid that someone who has been tracked to a kill, claimed a currently unverifiable PR, and whose choice of actions don't really make sense to me, is going to get to live.

[...]

My other difficulty with this is that you're probably leaning towards vigging me if you are telling the truth, which is definitely going to lose us the game if BH is town.

I wanted to consider the possibilities of using charter's supposed shot to our advantage, and I was brushed aside. I backed down mostly because of you, d3x, and the Colonel wanting to get rid of charter first (who, granted, I think is likely to be scum anyways). Now you're kind of doing a 180. I'm not saying you don't have a point, because I think this post is well thought out, but explain why it is you're changing your mind.

---

Roleclaim aside, what does everyone think of charter's play day 1?

I remember not being a huge fan, especially at the end of the day when he voted Moai. The vote seemed a little sneaky to me.

[Locke Lamora]

RC: my rethink has been caused largely by what I perceive to be a change in attitudes to the charter lynch over the last few days. When I last posted on Friday afternoon, it felt like we were having a debate over whether to lynch a lurker or charter. As far as I recall, d3x's preference was for a lurker, you obviously favoured a BH or Zach lynch and BH, while obviously suspecting charter, hadn't expressed any strong desire to lynch him in the next couple of days. I check back on Monday morning and suddenly everyone's decided that we should hammer charter and end the day? That felt off to me. I think I felt even more disturbed by it when Zach immediately put charter back at L-1 after claiming he wanted the town to discuss more. As a result, I felt it was time to take a different angle and respond to this turn of events in a manner that might get us some more information, instead of just ending the day early and letting our early-game lurkers say much less.

I'm pretty sure it probably looks quite strange to everyone else, but from my perspective it felt like there had been quite a big change. It could just be a scumbuddy deciding to bus, or it could be that scum perceived the charter lynch was going to be the easier sell and put their backing behind it. I still really don't like the circumstances of charter's claim and his choice of targets but I'm going to put a little more thought into it than some people before I decide to hammer or not.

[Zachrulez]

Locke, my stance on a charter lynch was affected by your unvote. I found the timing odd.

My main issue with it is that you're pulling off of it, and claiming a scummy read on d3x. That bothers me. It bothers me because I have a strong town read on d3x and I don't see your case.

I'd even go as far as to say that d3x is probably the worst choice for a lynch today.

I just don't really understand how pursuing d3x at this juncture is really going to get us anywhere.

The only other lynches that seem to have any real chance of happening other than Charter are myself and BH. Personally, BH would be my 2nd preference for a lynch today, mainly because I find his play toward the way he ended day 2 to be questionable.

That's pretty much where I'm at. I started the day a bit cautious due to the fact that Hoopla was previously hammered in a lightning fast fashion, but since Charter has reached lynch -1 and remained there through all this. My concerns about a quick hammer have gone for the most part. Seeing the lack of that hammer and a little more caution then we saw in the previous day phase, I'm a bit more content with a hammer on Charter now than I was a bit earlier in the day.

I just get the sense from your play that you're sizing up future lynches and it's just twinging my gut. You've explained your position though, and if you do genuinely want to rethink things... fair enough I guess.

[RedCoyote]

my rethink has been caused largely by what I perceive to be a change in attitudes to the charter lynch over the last few days. When I last posted on Friday afternoon, it felt like we were having a debate over whether to lynch a lurker or charter. As far as I recall, d3x's preference was for a lurker, you obviously favoured a BH or Zach lynch and BH, while obviously suspecting charter, hadn't expressed any strong desire to lynch him in the next couple of days. I check back on Monday morning and suddenly everyone's decided that we should hammer charter and end the day? That felt off to me.

Would it be fair to say that d3x and I more or less changed your stance on your charter read? Do you think he's more likely to be town now?

[Locke Lamora]

RC: I would say you changed my thinking about the motivations of people backing the charter lynch, not about charter as a player. I'm definitely not as confident about lynching him as I was earlier in the day. Arguably it's an overreaction and has just come about because of the timing of my absence but I definitely felt the situation warranted further examination. I'm still probably going to hammer because nothing has happened to change my view of his choice of actions or the fact that he has been tracked to a kill.

Zach: I can see where you're coming from on d3x. I almost didn't mention it because I don't think there's much that can tangibly back it up. Clearly CC is getting a similar read and I thought it was about time to mention it as I've been getting that read for a while now. It was also partly motivated by the fact that nobody seemed to have anything to discuss any more and I thought that d3x was a player who hadn't been discussed in great detail (which may be part of the reason why I've got that sneaking scummy feeling without much to back it up).

[d3x]

@LL- No thoughts about the easy Scum victory I posted in depth? Do you still see it as not 'as easy a win as you suggest'. It seriously worries me that you'd be willing to bring charter to the chopping block and then back all the way off and suggest a No Lynch.

[Col.Cathart]

I've been called scummy from several directions today and I seem to make it onto most people's scumlists somewhere. As far as I can tell, you've had a town read on me pretty much all game. It's quite reminiscent of last time I played with you,

except you're confirmed town this time.

I'm also wondering who might be scum trying to capitalise on suspicion on me and who's just genuinely suspicious town, so it got me thinking about you not seeming to suspect me at all.

Exactly, so why dwell on it?

------------

Ok, according to the deadline we have less than 5 days to make a decision. Since we already discussed several lynch and consequence possibilities, I think it's time to take a stance. I would like everyone to post what voting plan for today they can support at this point, because I'm already lost on who wants to do what.

In my case:

Preferred option - lynching charter (I still think there's a decent chance he's scum. If not - I still feel much more confident in LyLo with two lurkers rather than either-scum-or-power-role)

Secondary option, if the first one is not achievable - No lynch, and let's see what will Charter/scum (or Charter scum) do during the night.

Tertiary option if both above will fail - lynch Bio.