Open 201 v2.0 ~ F&I Mafia ~ Game Over

[DTMaster]

@Sando

Hm? You didn't really go into detail on how KMD is scummy. You have more reasons saying he is odd/unique/stirring things up.

I'm reading: scum buddying attempt in the guise of criticism/analysis.

[Sando]

@Sando

Hm? You didn't really go into detail on how KMD is scummy. You have more reasons saying he is odd/unique/stirring things up.

I'm reading: scum buddying attempt in the guise of criticism/analysis.

I think his accusation on you is in complete contrast to his earlier (towny) play in how he backed it up and his commitment to it. I think his play is benefiting town though, and I think he's posting enough and interesting enough stuff that I'm prepared to look at him further after I've pursued other things.

[The Quintastic One]

Sorry I am behind in the discussion. Last time I posted I believe was Page 2 and the thread exploded while I was at work. So these are all quotes and analysis done after some events have already been resolved. So if you feel the need to ignore everything in this wall of text, you are welcome to do so.

As for me, I've got no problem with votes on me. Town outnumber scum 2:1, meaning we're 66% likely to lynch town today, might as well be me. Town will learn a lot based on who is on the bandwagon.

So you’ve got no problems being voted on, yet you already offer yourself as today’s lynch just because there is a 66% chance you would be town? Jeez.

I'm cool with this trade. Lynch me today and kmd tomorrow. If kmd is so ready to end the day now when we've got players we haven't even heard from, then he is changing my mind on how scummy he looks. If he is town, he's going to damage the way town plays.

More anti-town attitude. You can’t know 100% that just because we lynch you that means KMD is auto-scum. You both could be town and you are purposefully trying to guide the town into possibly losing 4 townies in the process of 2 days when you count successful nightkills and no successful doc protections. I can’t guarantee either of you are town either, but your lynch is not going to vilify Farside or KMD just because there’s the possibility you’ll flip town.

Only scum care what people think.

Not true.

Kmd4390 wanted to trade and then backed down. Sounds like he has some explaining to do. I'm working right now on the assumption that he hoped I was opposite mafia from him, and backed down when it became clear I was town. I think Kmd needs to confess, or explain himself.

When did you become confirmed town? Because you wanted to be lynched?

Proof Read Note After Reading Entire Thread: Apparently KMD thinks this behavior clears you of scumminess too, so you can ignore this question since it's already been resolved.

I'm not changing my story. I have said all I can on this subject without repeating myself. Consider this topic dropped. If it means you will be voting me until eternity, then so be it. I will not respond to this topic again in the forum.

I get just as annoyed at people asking me the same question over and over again in different ways expecting a different answer. So although this reeks of Gayle-esque anti-town play, I would do the same. Perhaps a quick elaboration would be nice though?

my reads:

maf
farside
dtmaster

neutral
lacey

villa
gheb
kdmaster

Useless analysis is useless. Maybe if you elaborated as to WHY you believe these things, it wouldn’t be so bad. But right now, it’s nothing but fluff.

caveat: i joined mar 5 and migrated from a werewolf community

So apparently in Werewolf Mafia you just post your player reads and expect the town to be your personal army of lynchers without need of explanation?

In in other news I'm offically on ignore from Lacey. Cool I broke a player and can call it a day.

You are being very annoying by continuing to ask her the same question over and over again until she answers it in a different way. I wouldn’t respond to that line of questioning either. If I give you an answer the first time around that’s my answer, and it’s not changing.

farside can i ask two questions
i'll substantiate my reads afterwards

do you normally add apostrophes where they don't belong?

we like to have reason's without apostrophe

and is english your native tongue

Distracting line of questioning is distracting.



Overall this entire Day so far reads to me as Townies fighting Townies. The only one that I can reasonably suspect at this point is GoroHonda for his lazy playstyle. But I can't meta to confirm that for obvious reasons. Other than that, unless I subscribe to the possibility of Farside and KMD buddying due to shared OMGUS from Lacey or to a brilliantly orchestrated distancing attempt by KMD & Lacey, then I have nothing at this point. And before anyone asks, no. Not even on DTM.

[farside22]

Looking at DTMaster post 149: Why does this all read and feel different the last game?
I know there is no answer but it seems off in comparison to last game.

[farside22]

You are being very annoying by continuing to ask her the same question over and over again until she answers it in a different way. I wouldn’t respond to that line of questioning either. If I give you an answer the first time around that’s my answer, and it’s not changing.

Please quote where she answered my questions
where I call her fence sitting and ask her what she would call it.
Then when I ask her about looking for affirmation of a vote she said she didn't but when I placed it in bold that she did indeed do that she brushed it off.

The only reason my vote isn't on Lacey right now is because of her saying go ahead and lynch me first. It's a ballsy play and the only reason IGMYEH

[Fongoid]

unvote

I'm satisfied by kmd's responses...though I now need to wade through many pages and attempt to offer further analysis >_<

[Fongoid]

148:

While I do not believe Fonigolds vote was OMGUS, this is not a valid defence of the claim of OMGUS. In fact, quite the opposite I believe, given that Fonigold is stating that he has no real suspicion of his votee, and is just responding to the vote. While I don’t think it was OMGUS, the defence makes me think Foni has been blindsided and is scrambling for an explanation.

IMO, an OMGUS vote comes when you believe someone is scum merely because they're voting you. My vote was for pressure, and nothing more, therefore I wouldn't classify at as OMGUS.

Current top two suspects for me are Lacey and Goro.

Other than what has already been pointed out, after getting a bit of backlash, Lacey starts getting really really defensive. Sando notes that the defence she puts up aren't always addressing the issue, but the sheer number of defensive posts in a row throws up a bit of a red flag for me. Might seem a little ironic as my kmd vote was called overly defensive by some...but was not near as defensive as this.

@DTMaster
After your accusation of my defensiveness, why are you unconcerned with Lacey's? You throw a bit of suspicion on her, but don't mention that at all.

GoroHonda, has a little less scummy tell, and a little more new-to-this-site tell. However his latest post asking farside inane questions about punctuation etc. sticks out to me, as it in no way helps us scumhunt...but he's still "asking questions" to look townie.

@kmd, farside
Why did you abandon your Lacey votes? What makes DTM scummier?

Vote: Lacey

[farside22]

why did you abandon your Lacey votes? What makes DTM scummier?

The only reason my vote isn't on Lacey right now is because of her saying go ahead and lynch me first. It's a ballsy play and the only reason IGMYEOH

As for DTM

His vote and reasoning are ridiculous here. It's vague and what he is attacking is vague.
Plus I find it weird he find RVS fine but he seems to want to move forward.
Add to that just vibes in general.

His latest post still doesn't appease me.

[farside22]

farside can i ask two questions
i'll substantiate my reads afterwards

do you normally add apostrophes where they don't belong?

we like to have reason's without apostrophe

and is english your native tongue

GRAMMAR POLICE, GRAMMAR POLICE
I hate people who knit pick on grammer. I type as I think and it's not always perfect but it's how I am. My spelling and grammar are horrible alway. It's not because english isn't my first lanauge it's because I don't care enough to see if I spelled or checked my grammar to appease people.

*mutters about people who knit pick on shit like this and swear multiple times*

[Gheb]

Holy ****, I've been away and posts blow up like that. Didn't expect that after the last inacrnation of this game. I've skimmed through most of the recent discussion so I'm not 100% up to date but I'd like to place a huge

FoS @ Goro

for his attempts to disctract, stall and his potentially misleading list. Him randomly buddying me in that list is also noted.

More later.

[DTMaster]

@Sando
Um, the big diffrence is that

KMD is in the middle of his analysis of me

via his vote and transition from Lacey to me due to Lacey's "lynch me to lynch KMD"

If anything it's analgous to how KMD first voted Lacey/Fangoid >>;;. Can you be more specific about what makes KMD scummy?

@Fangoid
Factors I took in my Lacey read:

1. Her join date was January
2. Her asking for games to read.
3. Her "lynch me to lynch KMD-scum" play
4. Focus on statistical analysis.
5.

Let's analyze the Lacey/Farside and KMD debate beginning on page 3.

55- Is the inital acusation by Farside saying Lacey is back peddling on the issue.

56 - KMD is attacking Lacey for weak scumhunting (early game questions, voting pressure, yada yada and a start for the Lacey analysis) and compliments Farsides 55.

Again 55 and 56 are good arguments because: While Lacey argues uin her 54 that there needs to be more discussion, she focuses on theory and less on reading players. These are valid arguments.

57 - 61 actually shows:

Farside being hyper agressive. Note the time stamps between Lacey's argument and Farside's accusation. Lacey posted within a minute of Farside's post, leading me to think: Lacey was ninjaed. Comapre the length of post to what Farside posted, you'll see this argument was nulled, especially given that Lacey posted with quotes.

If you carry this argument forward, you can see that this particular argument (Lacey was avoiding KMD) isn't as valid as you think. However in 64" But this isn't the central argument in Lacey vs Farside (had Lacey voted farside for this reasoning, I would have voted her. But Lacey focused on her voting reason.)

hat's your opinion. Maybe we vote differently. I would only classify a vote by me "serious" if I believed I had a decent case on someone. I keep casefiles on all players in a game, and I had all of one post from you that could have been:

A) Actually RVS which I misread
B) Later justified

If you hadn't posted today, I would have called my vote serious, but as it was my motivation was 50% RVS, and 50% pressure. Call it what you like, I don't call that serious. Tomorrow, I would have become more serious, but you posted today, and your reasoning is sound enough for me this early in the game.

Lacey proved that she had a purpose in her voting, nullifying the RVS argument. It's actually a scum point against her because it

does look like back tracking, and it looks like the "pressure vote" is blowing up to proportions that she doesn't want"

Hence the attacks on Lacey for this argument is valid.

It was defended by

It's not OMGUS, or I would have voted the first person who voted me.

Farside is saying I was "distancing myself" from a vote with a statement I was using to claim more ownership of the vote.

And it's coming after I questioned farside's lack of participation as being abnormal. I think farside's nervous.

As for me, I've got no problem with votes on me. Town outnumber scum 2:1, meaning we're 66% likely to lynch town today, might as well be me. Town will learn a lot based on who is on the bandwagon.

but read the bolded parts. Lacey had purpose to her vote, but at the same time calls it a RVS vote. It would be more accurate to call it a pressure for more information vote, but I think it's a newbie vocabulary mistake rather then a scum slip. How so?

She refered Pressure Voting as part of her reason to RVS vote. They aren't %s or ratios, rather they are actual processes of votes

The rest of the posts are setting up KMD lynches via Lacey lynch, which is subpar play and a newbie mistake. Hence my original point that: Kacey should do more scum hunting.

If you wonder why I didn't analyze this? Because it was said and done via Farside/KMD. I also had strong reasons to believe Kacey is more newb-player rather then scum slipping with her defence.

@TQO
Just wondering, did you take into account that Goro is from a diffrent site where the play style is diffrent?

@Jacob
Anything? It feels like it's been a while.

[farside22]

DTMaster: Knowing how Jacob played last game would you say he is on par with how he played last game?

@ DTM calling Lacey, Kacey in some of his post.

I noticed last game DT you didn't seem as analytical as you seem this game. Would that be an accurate statement?

[TheLonging]

Jeez so much activity in this thread so much catching up.

I'm going to do a serious reread tomorrow, since I don't have much time today, but I am really suspicious of GoroHonda, for not even bothering to help town, just post a list with no reasoning to it and distracting us with irrelevant questions.

Vote: GoroHonda

[JacobSavage]

@DTM/Faraside

Missed like a day or so, then took a long time to get through the discussion so far.

This is probably my 3rd post so far. And to be honest, I may just stay away from jumping to conclusions *remembers how he got the Doctor mod-killed last game*

And yes it has been a while, although most of the discussion has been between Farside/Lacey, which, just to help build a meta, I notice she does a lot. I seem to remember looking through a few games before this started and coming across, another one of her games where she behaved just like this, maybe my meta is wrong of her, but we shall see how that game turns out.

Current scum reads are most likely:
Spring-for lurking, a bit hypocritical, I know but something deals me it is.

Current Town reads:

do you normally add apostrophes where they don't belong?

Goro- I cannot see why scum would be so nit-picky about something so trivial and make enemies amongst the town.

@Goro

On that topic, capital letters and other punctuation are also important.

In terms of the general discussion regarding Lacey's and KMD's deal,

@Mod

(can't remember is referring to on going games against the rules, did look but couldn't see it their)

That's all I have got so far, Will try and be more active over the next few days

[farside22]

And yes it has been a while, although most of the discussion has been between Farside/Lacey, which, just to help build a meta, I notice she does a lot. I seem to remember looking through a few games before this started and coming across, another one of her games where she behaved just like this, maybe my meta is wrong of her, but we shall see how that game turns out.

Jacob who's meta are you refering to here?

Also I didn't really see anything you wrote except maybe spring that you thought was really scummy or stood out.

[Lacey]

Since when does: Not understanding someone = that someone is scummy?

Well the question is whether I am misunderstanding farside, or she is using specious logic. For the moment I think we just aren't understanding each other at all.

2.@Lacey quote about wagons. Hold on, Lacey just AtEd and said a self wagon would generate more information 4 pages in. Now take that quote and put it with Lacey's meta on scummy-townies, and it seems odd that Lacey would suggest that.

I'm confused as to what you are referring to, What quote about wagons/self wagon? Can you reference Post Subject ISO for me?

Yikes, Lacey seems to be 50/50 on KMD, and if town, she’s basically giving a 75% chance of the first 2 lynches being town...

No, I'm just pretty confident that a townie wouldn't try to end the day so fast. I consider the offer from kmd to be a scum tell. Had he offered such a trade well into the day, it would be different. But so soon? When some players haven't posted at all?

That's too scummy to ignore.

And as stated, I think Lacey is being quite hypocritical to accuse KMD of trying to end the day, when that’s exactly what she tried to agree to.

Well I disagree here. If he had taken me up on my offer, as I demanded he did, and I flipped scum, what would that have gained the mafia? Nothing.

But having someone demand to end the day and flipping town has a better than average chance (in my opinion) of catching us a mafia member. I'm still suspicious that kmd was hoping to exploit the unique double mafia situation to secure a town read for himself.

@Lacey
1. Um, conditional lynches aren't helpful to the town. It makes you tunnel, and then leads to conformational bias. Think about it, at 4 pages in do you seriously have a strong enough lead to lynch KMD?

If he had been willing to follow through yes. Sometimes you have to be aggressive and make a gamble. Now, no. I'm not sure what his backing down means. I think it could be scummy, but his explanation isn't irrational.

2. I'm reminded of my first newbie game somewhat right now.

Care to elaborate?

So you’ve got no problems being voted on, yet you already offer yourself as today’s lynch just because there is a 66% chance you would be town? Jeez.

I have no idea where you get this from. I think you misread the post.

There is a 66.6% chance we will lynch town today. Those are just the odds. I'm town, and in the situation I was pretty confident I could trade 1:1 for scum. I'm willing to trade my position for a scum position (caveat for the mod: Yes I know it has been deemed against the rules for this game, so I am not offering, I am talking strategy). I consider such an exchange to be in town's best interest, so I have no qualms with being lynched.

More anti-town attitude. You can’t know 100% that just because we lynch you that means KMD is auto-scum. You both could be town

Absolutely true. But in a game of limited information, you always have to make a gamble.

It's not like I could make such a gamble on my own. I would need to find six other people who were willing to take the gamble with me. After all, town must vote on who to lynch. I don't have the power to lynch by fiat. I don't see how this is anti-town at all.

I get just as annoyed at people asking me the same question over and over again in different ways expecting a different answer. So although this reeks of Gayle-esque anti-town play, I would do the same. Perhaps a quick elaboration would be nice though?

Quick summary: I voted my first vote largely because of RVS, but partially because the comment by kmd was a strange one to make. My confidence in the second half of the vote was low due to kmd having posted a grand total of 1 post by that point.

To call such a vote serious is, in my opinion, disingenious. So I refuse to call such a vote serious. The vote became slightly more serious due to kmd's perceived long absence, but all of these questions/concerns were eventually addressed.

========================================

Quick note, I've tried to address direct queries. I'll try and do a more thorough read tonight, but I'm going to be quickly V/LA till Tuesday due to a family emergency. I'll still be logging in, but expect 1-2 posts max per day.

[CSL]

You people post so much that it's getting even more fun to mod this game. Keep it UP!

Lacey's V/LA has been noted.

Votecount incoming. At least slow down while I attempt to count up all of the votes betweem page 3 and here.

[CSL]

Flavor

Sando takes part in the proceedings. More talking and accusations unfold. Several more podiums light up like crazy. Some remained dormant as ever. Meanwhile, you hear a bell. Time is ticking, and you didn't even know it. You still have a while before time expires.

The Meep votecount

kmd4390 (L-6) Lacey
Fongoid (L-7)
farside22 (L-7)
Sando (L-7)
The Quintastic One (L-7)
Gheb (L-7)
springlullaby (L-6) Gheb
DTMaster (L-4) GoroHonda, kmd4390, farside22
GoroHonda (L-6) TheLonging
Lacey (L-5) Sando, Fongoid
TheLonging (L-6) JacobSavage
JacobSavage (L-6) DTMaster

Not voting: Everyone else

With 12 alive, 7 will lynch

danakillsu is not in this game. Do not post here if you are not in this game.

[TheLonging]

Mod: You missed my vote on GoroHonda

Fixed. ~ CSL

[DTMaster]

@Farside
1. Kacey: Whoops lol. :p
2. Jacob: Its the same. Just getting more info.
3. Play Style: New approach?

@Longing
1. Did you read Goro's Meta call?

@Jacob
1. Wait, is Goro more concerned about grammer then scum hunting? (lol)

@Lacey
1. Elaborate: You can read it yourself. Self vote in a fit of anger lol.
2. Self wagon: Technically its not a "bandwagon", but it's your exchange and "trade". This post illustrates this well:

Hmm. A town response.

Unvote, Vote DTMaster

No, no, no, no!

He is backing down to easy. Why? Were you hoping I was Fire Mafia and you were Ice or something? No backing down now.

Let's do this trade.

Me first, then kmd!

Suggesting this is contradictory to your anti-town experience, because this is an anti-town action. But it's a good sign on our ends (read my newbie game/read Zachtown/ blah)

@Longing
What are your current conclusions to your catch up points. You hinted that you were at the point where Lacey vs Farside debate occured.

[DTMaster]

Forgot to add

@Jacob
Who's on your scum list/town list again? I can't tell if you are saying:

a. You don't have a strong scum list
b. You think Goro is town, or if that's a response to his post
c. If you think KMD/Lacey is town based on their exchange.

[TheLonging]

DTM: 1st question: nope, where did he say it/post it?

2nd Question: I only caught up some, I'll finish around tomorrow for sure, but from what I read, I have a gut feeling both farside and Lacey could be town.

[DTMaster]

my reads:

maf
farside
dtmaster

neutral
lacey

villa
gheb
kdmaster

Why do you have a list with no reason's to support it?

is that not normal here?

caveat: i joined mar 5 and migrated from a werewolf community

We have an out of site boy here, so when I read of people accusing him for meta that is exclusive with the site, they are forgetting context. Also someone said he was from werewolf mafia.

[DTMaster]

EBWOP: URk, from werewolf mafia, but he's clearly from a different site. :p

[TheLonging]

Oh so they play different than we do?