Open 201 v2.0 ~ F&I Mafia ~ Game Over

[Lacey]

In in other news I'm offically on ignore from Lacey. Cool I broke a player and can call it a day.

Oh sweetie, no, no. Sorry. I didn't mean that. I'm not ignoring you, or mad at you or anything. I just feel any additional discussion along the lines you were pursuing will yield nothing new.

I have literally said all I can on the topic, and I don't want to distract the thread or derail it further, which I think is bad for town.

If that means you have to keep voting me, well that is what it means. I can't say anything new, so I obviously won't change your mind on the subject. Why keep barking up the wrong tree together? We'll both just end up overposting and flooding the thread.

Maybe this is clearer: I have no additional explanations or information to share on my initial vote of kmd.

Does that help? I'm really sorry if I made you think I was ignoring you. Ok?

[Kmd4390]

Goro, no read on me? Care to elaborate on a read or two? What is villa and who is kdmaster?

--------------

Lacey, I didn't actually expect the day to end so soon. It was my way of showing confidence in my read, applying pressure on you, and getting reactions.

Also, that's a poor point. Why, as town, would I feel the need to remind the rest of the town that "Oh, hey, maybe I'm scum".

[GoroHonda]

farside can i ask two questions
i'll substantiate my reads afterwards

do you normally add apostrophes where they don't belong?

we like to have reason's without apostrophe

and is english your native tongue

[farside22]

mutter something that sounds like a swear

unvote:
vote: DTMaster

I think lacey is wrong about kmd. Kmd doesn't trade one for one and scum doesn't trade one for one. Call it gut also. But I know I have done something close to what kmd did. If he's scum he has me good and fooled right now.

[farside22]

Also lacey you should read my post 114.

[Lacey]

Lacey, I didn't actually expect the day to end so soon. It was my way of showing confidence in my read, applying pressure on you, and getting reactions.

So you say. But that's only true if town didn't take you up on your suggestion. I accept that trade offers can be used for honest signaling, but only if you expect them to be accepted. I may be misinterpreting you, but my feeling is what you are saying here is your offer to trade was an empty threat.

Also, that's a poor point. Why, as town, would I feel the need to remind the rest of the town that "Oh, hey, maybe I'm scum".

You based your position on the fact that my flipping scum would have exonerated you. It wouldn't have. It seems like a strange thing to forget in this very unique setup.

[Lacey]

Also lacey you should read my post 114.

I thought I did. I'm sorry, maybe I'm just being dense but I have no idea what I'm supposed to notice.

Warning to all: I can be an airhead sometimes. Please be patient with me, I do happen to be blonde.

[Kmd4390]

Lacey, I highly doubt the 5 more votes necessary for a lynch were likely to pile on just because I claimed to have caught scum for sure. If they did, we'd have scum for sure just by looking at all of those votes. There's really no downside.

I wasn't actually going to come out and self-vote Day 2, just so you know. Call it an empty threat if you want, hell maybe it was. I was more after your reaction than actually seeing a deal take place. Your reaction was one that scum would never make. Scum, especially newer scum, tend to worry too much about upsetting their scumbuddy to take up a deal like that. What you did was definitely a town reaction. I consider you near-confirmed town.

---------------

Actually, I was basically saying I was so confident in the read that I'd be willing to be lynched if I was wrong. That doesn't say at all that if I'm right, I'm confirmed town. Actually, I said nothing at all about what should happen if I was right.

[farside22]

Also lacey you should read my post 114.

I thought I did. I'm sorry, maybe I'm just being dense but I have no idea what I'm supposed to notice.

Warning to all: I can be an airhead sometimes. Please be patient with me, I do happen to be blonde.

It's why I stated you were ignoring me.
Well that and the we will disagree and your shutting down the convo.

Sigh

I don't want this to be like last game so for now I'm dropping this but IGYMOU

[Lacey]

Lacey, I highly doubt the 5 more votes necessary for a lynch were likely to pile on just because I claimed to have caught scum for sure. If they did, we'd have scum for sure just by looking at all of those votes. There's really no downside.

I wasn't actually going to come out and self-vote Day 2, just so you know. Call it an empty threat if you want, hell maybe it was. I was more after your reaction than actually seeing a deal take place. Your reaction was one that scum would never make. Scum, especially newer scum, tend to worry too much about upsetting their scumbuddy to take up a deal like that. What you did was definitely a town reaction. I consider you near-confirmed town.

---------------

Actually, I was basically saying I was so confident in the read that I'd be willing to be lynched if I was wrong. That doesn't say at all that if I'm right, I'm confirmed town. Actually, I said nothing at all about what should happen if I was right.

Maybe I was reading things into what you said. Let me reread your original posts.

[Lacey]

Also lacey you should read my post 114.

I thought I did. I'm sorry, maybe I'm just being dense but I have no idea what I'm supposed to notice.

Warning to all: I can be an airhead sometimes. Please be patient with me, I do happen to be blonde.

It's why I stated you were ignoring me.
Well that and the we will disagree and your shutting down the convo.

Sigh

I don't want this to be like last game so for now I'm dropping this but IGYMOU

I'm really confused now.

Can we reopen this and go slowly with no assumptions. I'm feeling overwhelmed and lost.

[farside22]

Lacey:
This quote:

In in other news I'm offically on ignore from Lacey. Cool I broke a player and can call it a day.

Was in regards to these 3 post

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 65#2158565
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 00#2158600

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 18#2158618

[Lacey]

Ok here is your original offer.

Everyone, Lacey is scum. If I am wrong, please lynch me tomorrow. Thank you for your time. Let's finish this day and go to night now.

Lacey, I highly doubt the 5 more votes necessary for a lynch were likely to pile on just because I claimed to have caught scum for sure. If they did, we'd have scum for sure just by looking at all of those votes. There's really no downside.

Still seems off, trying to finish the day so soon. I still don't like that part.

I wasn't actually going to come out and self-vote Day 2, just so you know. Call it an empty threat if you want, hell maybe it was.

Actually, I was basically saying I was so confident in the read that I'd be willing to be lynched if I was wrong. That doesn't say at all that if I'm right, I'm confirmed town. Actually, I said nothing at all about what should happen if I was right.

I'm not sure there is much of a difference, but ok. Your story checks out. I still don't like it, because I think that would have been the reaction.

I need to think about this.

[Lacey]

Lacey:
This quote:

In in other news I'm offically on ignore from Lacey. Cool I broke a player and can call it a day.

Was in regards to these 3 post

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 65#2158565
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 00#2158600

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 18#2158618

Doesn't my first post explain it? I'm really confused.

[farside22]

Shrug*

I don't know how better to explain the confusion.

kmd: Why did you vote for DTMaster?

[Kmd4390]

kmd: Why did you vote for DTMaster?

Gut/meta. Something in his posts reminds me of a game where I was his scumbuddy and another game I modded where he was scum. It's hard to explain, but I'll give it a shot because you've modded/played enough that I think you can understand this. Knowing a player's alignment at the very beginning of a game gives you a MUCH better understanding of their play than when you find out later what their alignment was. I've had this experience with DT twice and feel that I can judge his alignment very well based on that.

[farside22]

Oh yeah I understand that. Although I know some players who change their play so their is not always a deffinate tell with them.
DTM's first post struck me as extermely scummy.

[Kmd4390]

Oh yeah I understand that. Although I know some players who change their play so their is not always a deffinate tell with them.
DTM's first post struck me as extermely scummy.

Meh, I don't think DT is aware enough of my perception of his scum play to be able to alter it like that. I was scum with him and modding in those games, so I've never really made an effort to get him lynched before.

What did you find scummy about his post?

[farside22]

@Fongoid
Wow, OMGUS much? I expected your reaction given that KMD said it was a serious vote, however you're attacking someone pretty harshly for the early game vote.

Red flag alert, someone is very antsy right now.

@Lacey
1. Actually, taken from Battle Mage's theory, RVS is just as useful as discussion. RVS frustrates scum because it's less likely to result in tunneling fights. You shouldn't discredit the RVS.

2. Depending on night actions, the town could also get screwed :<. (Recalls the last game lol)

@Town
Aside from mafia theory discussion, I'm going to let my vote do some talking for now.

Vote Fongoid

His vote and reasoning are ridiculous here. It's vague and what he is attacking is vague.
Plus I find it weird he find RVS fine but he seems to want to move forward.
Add to that just vibes in general.

[CSL]

Flavor

Sanhora doesn't wake up from his sleep. He stands still. Suddenly, the lights around his podium flicker on, and he drops, still sleeping. The podium closes, and resets. Sando is standing on the podium.

Sando replaces Sanhora.

[Sando]

quick hi to say I'm around, will post more this arvo hopefully.

[DTMaster]

@Lacey
1@Theory. Since it's being used in context with this game, we can discuss theory using my references with this game afterward.

2@Reverse PD?. I should say: Conditional PD (or conditional prisoners dillemia) since that's more accurate. I wrote it as reverse PD in my notes.

Basically scum would need to be lynched and fail to kill someone in order for town to win.

3@Improvement. Context, meta, and lots of rereads when you get flips. Certain tells are obvious with experience.

4.

I'm voting farside because farside's logic makes no sense to me. You voted me too, yet I'm no longer voting you.

Since when does: Not understanding someone = that someone is scummy?

@KMD
1.@ You are next! It seems premature to already set chain lynches/scum hunting targets.

2.@Lacey quote about wagons. Hold on, Lacey just AtEd and said a self wagon would generate more information 4 pages in. Now take that quote and put it with Lacey's meta on scummy-townies, and it seems odd that Lacey would suggest that.

@Farside
1. The question was in response to your attack on my Fangoid vote/attack.


--- Break time, self note page 4.

[CSL]

Mine.

[Sando]

In roughly chronological order, sorry for the lack of post # notations, I'm in a rush doing this at work.

I've played a lot of games with stupid scum, and some of the time people write them off as town because "Why would scum do something stupid like that??"

Stupid scum will make more than 1 stupid mistake. Town will often make 1 or 2 stupid mistakes, because they’re less worried about said stupid mistakes.

DTMs accusation of OMGUS is ludicrous. I tend to think that scum look for easy pro-town looking accusations to make like OMGUS and Role-Fishing. This looks a lot like this from DTM.

My vote is not OMGUS, because I don't believe kmd is scum (yet).

While I do not believe Fonigolds vote was OMGUS, this is not a valid defence of the claim of OMGUS. In fact, quite the opposite I believe, given that Fonigold is stating that he has no real suspicion of his votee, and is just responding to the vote. While I don’t think it was OMGUS, the defence makes me think Foni has been blindsided and is scrambling for an explanation.

KMDs reasoning strikes me as particularly sound regarding his ‘serious vote’.

I'm cool with this trade. Lynch me today and kmd tomorrow. If kmd is so ready to end the day now when we've got players we haven't even heard from, then he is changing my mind on how scummy he looks. If he is town, he's going to damage the way town plays.

Yikes, Lacey seems to be 50/50 on KMD, and if town, she’s basically giving a 75% chance of the first 2 lynches being town...

KMDs reasoning on DTM strikes me as odd. I’m happy to accept that he has a gut read on DTM, but a read like that you’re basically trading on your experience and trust, given that you can’t actually articulate a case. KMD was seemingly happy to put his money where his mouth is with his read on Lacey, I would expect something similar on a gut case with no empirical reasoning. The lack of conviction when contrasted with his previous statements is what worries me.

Lacey’s accusation that KMD was keen to end the day strikes me as disingenuous, given he was happy to agree to it and basically end the day right there.

Lacey, KMD and DTM are high on my list of scum-suspects, Fanigold coming in a reasonable 4th. Farside is probably highest on my list of town at the moment.

I don’t like Lacey most of all from that list, about the only thing making me shy away is the agreeing with KMDs lynch plan, and I don’t like to get swayed by 1 action. I don’t like Lacey’s defences, in some cases they strike me as not addressing the actual issue, like the defence of the OMGUS accusation. Lacey appears to defend it with the defence of ‘an OMGUS would go on the first person to vote me’, but I personally feel that this merely sidesteps the issue, as an OMGUS can go on anyone who votes you I feel. And as stated, I think Lacey is being quite hypocritical to accuse KMD of trying to end the day, when that’s exactly what she tried to agree to.

DTMs first post just screams scum to me, I haven’t gotten much of a scum vibe without that post. I’m wary of voting someone for 1 post, but I also don’t want it to slip past and get forgotten.

KMD is interesting, most of my suspicion is based on the more recent posts, I thought he was quite pro-town early. I think he’s certainly stirring things up, which is good for scumhunting, I think people are getting caught off guard with him.

Vote: Lacey

[DTMaster]

@The Longing
1. Because day 1 accusations like that = sarcasm and reaction fishing. However with Fangoid's response at the time read to me as a red flag of over defensiveness. Fangoid's response to my accusation was sufficient enough reasoning.

I admit though I'm biased given that I've played with KMD before.

@Lacey
1. Um, conditional lynches aren't helpful to the town. It makes you tunnel, and then leads to conformational bias. Think about it, at 4 pages in do you seriously have a strong enough lead to lynch KMD?

2. I'm reminded of my first newbie game somewhat right now.

@Kmd
1. Oh, there we go. However I cannot defend myself on gut, meta, and subtle tells if you do not say what said tells are. Can you explain to me what's convincing you I'm scum outside of meta calls?

@Goro
1. Whos kdmaster? (I assume KMD)
2. Why farside scum?
3. Why DTM scum?

I'll give you some time to explain yourself given your meta is off site.

Also number 1 shows Goro is buddying KMD if it is KMD :p

@Farside
Finally something I can defend myself from.

1. @Ridiculous/Reasoning. KMD meta = reaction player. KMD vote on Fan = getting reaction. Again, I said it's probably biased from my experience with KMD, but 1,2 pages in = not possible for KMD to get a solid read that early on. This was confirmed in a later post, but after Fon's last post.

Context says Fon doesn't know this, and didn't have time to respond to KMD's explanation.

2.@RVS/Moving on -> Take it you didn't play with battle mage. Actually KMD is a great example of this, how ever I should correct the term to say he is using

vote hopping

to pressure people in order to generate reads.

RVS is one way to achieve this, and is a method of using said votes to gain reads. Battlemage held onto his vote loosely and attacked when things caught his eye. KMD did the same from the transition from Fon -> Lacey -> Me.

Td:dr RVS = tool. Votes = tool. Sometimes these tools are deemed useless, but in the right hands are quite powerful in generating information.

Again you are attacking me for theory talk. Why am I scummy for having alternate theory again? It's game theory, not scum hunting at this point.

@Town
Meta link: The game KMD and I were scum buddies was Mafia of Order

@CSL
I noticed you

killed Nikanor and Haylen

WHHHHRRRYYYY!?

Actually, Haylen asked me if she could be in the pregame flavor scene. I told her to pick a random person.