Mafia 913: Wickedestjr's Mafia - Game Over

[Jack]

This is why you are scum I think.

You talk about zero "scumslipping"; you think he is scum. But you are criticizing him for holding off his vote on cruelty (who you must then think is town, since you think he isn't bussing). But given that this is lylo, there's no real reason for him to hold off his vote if cruelty is town is there? They win if a townie is lynched, it doesn't matter how bad he looks.

[Leafsnail]

Yes, jack, but if he does it in a scummy way, whichever townie is on his wagon (if there is one) will unvote. Thus he needs to know his vote is approved of before voting.

[Jazzmyn]

@Leaf

I can't quite parse your post 669, as when I use the quote function, it comes out all disjointed and without the proper boxes and such, but you seem to be harbouring the mistaken belief that I’m voting for cruelty because of "oh, he did it too" but that’s not accurate. I have stated my reasons for thinking that cruelty is scum, as have others, and he has just shrugged them off. Moreover, he's done virtually no scumhunting, nothing to dispel the suspicions on him, and very little to participate meaningfully in the game. That just reinforces my strong scum read on him. I don’t understand your distinction between him being my strongest scum read and him being scum: to me, they are the same thing, and you are making a distinction without a difference. As I said previously: "I'm voting cruelty because he is the player whom I feel most strongly is scum. I thought so yesterday and I continue to think so today, and nothing that he has said or done in the interim has mitigated my read on him."

I also can't make sense of your "overexplanation" bit because, well, it doesn't make any sense. Do you want to try again? You claimed that there is something wrong with me not being "sure" of cruelty's alignment. You then concede that "of course" there is no way that I could be sure about his alignment, but then you go on to repeat that there’s something wrong with me not being sure. I simply cannot make sense of this. If you have some way of being sure of cruelty’s alignment that the rest of us don’t have, please share it.

I also can't make any sense of your unfounded allegation that I've lied about reading the game thread several times. I have indeed read it several times.

The bit about you not being on the first townie mislynch wagon is disingenuous. You are also the player you replaced. In my game notes (spreadsheets, actually, colour coded and all), when a player replaces in, I put the new player's name at the top of the column for the previous player but everywhere else in the spreadsheet, I change all instances of the prior player's name to the new player's name because that's the best way to keep track of things and because, in my view, nobody gets a clean slate just because they replace in. I'm stuck with replacing Sir Cyanide in this game just as you're stuck with replacing Agar. So, the reality is that you were on both town mislynch wagons, whether you like it or not.

Further, you claimed to be so sure that Zang was scum that you hammered him with a flippant comment in response to his lengthy response to a post of yours without addressing the content, and ending the day without further discussion despite there being no looming deadline at the time, and you started this Day by voting for Jack in your first post, so you're being hypocritical when you criticize others for casting a couple of votes upon the player whom they most strongly suspect to be scum nearly a week into this Day.

Regards,
Jazz

[Leafsnail]

I can't quite parse your post 669, as when I use the quote function, it comes out all disjointed and without the proper boxes and such, but you seem to be harbouring the mistaken belief that I’m voting for cruelty because of "oh, he did it too" but that’s not accurate

This is not my main problem, although it is a contributing factor.

Moreover, he's done virtually no scumhunting, nothing to dispel the suspicions on him, and very little to participate meaningfully in the game. That just reinforces my strong scum read on him.

If it only reinforces your reasons for thinking he's scum, what are your original reasons? Also - how would you expect cruelty to act as town? As far as I can tell, if cruelty's scum, he's performing some kind of RiA, and I really don't see that here.

I don’t understand your distinction between him being my strongest scum read and him being scum: to me, they are the same thing, and you are making a distinction without a difference.

Let's say we have 5 players in a game - Alice, Bob, Christine, Damian and Edith. You are Alice. Your read on the other players are as follows:

Bob: 30% scum
Christine: 25% scum
Damian: 25% scum
Edith: 20% scum

Now, your strongest scum read is Bob, at 30%. However, from your perspective, there is still a 70% chance that he is town. Therefore being your strongest read is not necessarily enough to make someone scum. You also remain reluctant to actually call him scum.

I also can't make sense of your "overexplanation" bit because, well, it doesn't make any sense. Do you want to try again? You claimed that there is something wrong with me not being "sure" of cruelty's alignment. You then concede that "of course" there is no way that I could be sure about his alignment, but then you go on to repeat that there’s something wrong with me not being sure.

You cannot be sure (as in, 100%) but you can at least be relatively convinced, in your mind, that cruelty is scum. You really don't seem to be prepared to fully commit yourself to your vote. You always state that he is merely "your strongest read" and not "scum" or whatever.

I also can't make any sense of your unfounded allegation that I've lied about reading the game thread several times. I have indeed read it several times.

So if you've taken the time to do that... why was the only thing you got "Cruelty is my strongest scumread"? Didn't you have

any

comments to make about

anything

else you saw while going over it 3 times? Nothing about partners, town reads or general comments on the game?

You are also the player you replaced. In my game notes (spreadsheets, actually, colour coded and all), when a player replaces in, I put the new player's name at the top of the column for the previous player but everywhere else in the spreadsheet, I change all instances of the prior player's name to the new player's name because that's the best way to keep track of things and because, in my view, nobody gets a clean slate just because they replace in. I'm stuck with replacing Sir Cyanide in this game just as you're stuck with replacing Agar. So, the reality is that you were on both town mislynch wagons, whether you like it or not.

But, in that case, your argument makes no sense, even if I accept your strawman of my position ("If you vote a townie, you are scum"). If you are trying to point to a hypocrisy in my play you can't point to something my predecessor had done, as he is not me, and presumably would not run under the same principles as I would.

Further, you claimed to be so sure that Zang was scum that you hammered him with a flippant comment in response to his lengthy response to a post of yours without addressing the content

The post had no content. It was all deflections, asking for clarification on questions that didn't need it, or overdefensiveness ("I don't understand you but I deny anything you're accusing me of"). He also dismisses his reason for hammering as a joke, which made me pretty sure he was scum (unfortunately, you can be pretty sure and wrong :S).

ending the day without further discussion despite there being no looming deadline at the time

Firstly, it was freelynch, as opposed to lylo, and secondly I did not feel further discussion could do anything to redeem Zang in my eyes.

you started this Day by voting for Jack in your first post, so you're being hypocritical when you criticize others for casting a couple of votes upon the player whom they most strongly suspect to be scum nearly a week into this Day.

I unvoted, however, when someone else put a vote on, remembering the danger of voting early in lylo. It is not an equivalent act. And this is enough case of you using the comparative

most

in order to avoid a commitment.

[Jack]

Yes, jack, but if he does it in a scummy way, whichever townie is on his wagon (if there is one) will unvote. Thus he needs to know his vote is approved of before voting.

He could just say something like this:

After going back over the thread, I'm leaning towards Cruelty as my top suspect. His question (what the most important part of the game was) seemed to go nowhere, he talks about developing more information later with no followup, and, of course, his odd bandwagon hop.

Vote: Cruelty

Which is what he said yesterday. In a situation where it was quite likely that the vote would be looked back on if he was mafia and cruelty was town, as per your theory. It is really, really not difficult to vote someone you've suspected all along.

I'm having a similar problem here as I was with Jazz. You're saying he's your strongest read, which is fine for a freelynch. However, you haven't said that he's scum, or even that you think he's scum. You seem reluctant to commit either way.

This whole line of argument is silly and wrong:

Still think Cruelty is scum,

[Vivi57]

Cruelty has been at L-2 for over 72 hours now. Initially, I was cautious because I was scared of scum pushing the vote on cruelty and lynching him fast. As more time passed and noone tried to lynch him, it became more and more likely for him to be scum. I am now confident enough to place my vote.

Vote: Cruelty

[cruelty]

Cruelty has been at L-2 for over 72 hours now. Initially, I was cautious because I was scared of scum pushing the vote on cruelty and lynching him fast. As more time passed and noone tried to lynch him, it became more and more likely for him to be scum. I am now confident enough to place my vote.

Vote: Cruelty

flawed logic.

It became equally likely that I was scum OR the two on my wagon are scum.

Assuming that all players in-game are active(ish) the only possible conclusion is that both Jack and Jazzmyn are scum - if one was town then scum would have hammered by now, and as I'm innocent (vt claim btw) I know the stagnation isn't on my end.

Therefore

vote Jack

I suspect it doesn't really matter who I vote because if Vivi isn't scum then it'll be game over by the time I wake up.

[Fat_Tony]

Important to note, that isn't entirely WIFOM from cruelty.

If cruelty is town, scum don't NEED to be careful and can lynch as soon as they see this, winning the game.

If cruelty isn't lynched in the next 24-36 hours, that presents two possibilities.

1) The three players currently on the cruelty wagon are, or at least contain, our scum. That's the only explanation for a delay if cruelty is town. I repeat - scum has nothing to gain by delaying the hammer.

2)Cruelty is scum. Ergo, scum haven't bussed him yet.

Fellow townies: even if you think cruelty is scum as, frankly, I do, it probably isn't in our best interests to hammer yet. We need to wait it out and see what happens.

Even in a crueltyscum scenario, I'd wager at least one of the guys on the wagon will be scum too - bussing cruelty here would lend them great credence on D4. Therefore, by waiting to see if scum quickhammers, we can pretty much guarantee that one of the three guys currently voting cruelty is either scum or cruelty's scumbuddy.

Do you guys agree/disagree with my analysis of the situation here?

[Zhero]

That sounds about right.

Vote: Cruelty

[SIR CYANIDE]

Good game.

@Jazzmyn: I don't like how you called me scummy and obnoxious in the QT :'(

[Leafsnail]

Hey, this is the first game ever in which I can say "I told you so". So I will.

I told you so. Although it was actually mostly my fault for not being more aggressive to Jazzmyn and not telling Jack to unvote directly. I saw this thread at school on a friend's iPod, and was planning to accuse Vivi of being scum, but it looks like it's too late anyway.

[Leafsnail]

Just out of interest, why wasn't SC modkilled along with Quin?

[Leafsnail]

SIRCYANIDE. Not strangercoug. Sorry.

[SIR CYANIDE]

Just out of interest, why wasn't SC modkilled along with Quin?

I think TQO's posts were more aggressive and offensive. Not sure though.

[Jack]

Well, I guess I know who to vig tonight.

[Wickedestjr]

Votecount 25:

cruelty - (4) - Jack, Jazzmyn, Vivi57, Zhero
Jack - (1) - cruelty

cruelty,

Vanilla Townie

, lynched day 3.

Jack,

Vanilla Townie

, endgamed.
Fat Tony,

Vanilla Townie

, endgamed.
Leafsnail,

Hider

, endgamed.

Jazzmyn (Mafia Godfather), Vivi57 (Mafia Tracker), and Zhero (Mafia Jailkeeper) win!!!

[Wickedestjr]

Scum and Neighbors are allowed to post their quicktopics now. I will post the role pms, night actions, and give my thoughts soon.

[Leafsnail]

Wow, caught two scum trying to quickhammer. Although that just made them switch to their third member :/.

[Jack]

Rough game. Vivi was the only one I suspected from that group. Sir Cyanide and Zhero seemed town to me.

Not ashamed of lynching cruelty though

[Wickedestjr]

Role PMs

Sir Cyanide/Jazzmyn:

You are a Mafia Godfather. You, Zhero (Mafia Jailkeeper), and Vivi57 (Mafia Tracker) may kill one person each night. You appear innocent to investigations, and choose who will be performing the kill in your group and who they will be killing. You win when Mafia have taken over the town, or nothing can prevent the same

Vivi57:

You are a Mafia Tracker. You, Sir Cyanide (Mafia Godfather), and Zhero (Mafia Jailkeeper) may kill one person each night. Sir Cyanide (Mafia Godfather) chooses who will be performing the kill each night and who they will be killing. You have the ability to choose one person during the night to follow. You will be told who that person visits. You win when Mafia have taken over the town, or nothing can prevent the same.

Zhero:

You are a Mafia Jailkeeper. You, Sir Cyanide (Mafia Godfather), and Vivi57 (Mafia Tracker) may kill one person each night. Sir Cyanide (Mafia Godfather) chooses who will be performing the kill each night and who they will be killing. You have the ability to choose one person during the night to Jailkeep. If you do this, then that person is immune to any attacks directed at him, but at the same time, they are unable to use any night actions they may or may not have. You win when Mafia have taken over the town, or nothing can prevent the same.

PaltryExcuse:

You are a Watcher. During the night, you have the ability to pick one person to visit and you will be told who visited that person. You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

StrangerCoug:

You are a Doctor. During the night, you have the ability to pick one person to visit, and you can prevent that person from getting killed during the night. You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

AGar/Leafsnail:

You are a Hider. During the night, you have the ability to pick one person to visit and hide behind. If you are attacked during the night you will not die, but if the person you hid behind is attacked then both you and the person you hid behind die. You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

The Quintastic One:

You are a Town Neighbor. You have a buddy named Zang who you like to talk to during the night. You are not sure if you can trust him, but you talk to him anyway. You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

Zang:

You are a Town Neighbor. You have a buddy named The Quintastic One who you like to talk to during the night. You are not sure if you can trust him, but you talk to him anyway. You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated.

Jack/ConfidAnon/Fat Tony/cruelty:

You are a vanilla townie. You will do everything you can to make sure the scum are lynched. Unfortunately, you don't have any special abilities, so your vote is your best weapon. Use it wisely. You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

[Wickedestjr]

Night Actions

Night 1:

Sir Cyanide kills PaltryExcuse.
Vivi57 tracks cruelty.
Zhero jailkeeps Jack.
PaltryExcuse watches AGar.
StangerCoug protects Jack.
AGar hides behind cruelty.


Night 2:

Jazzmyn kills StrangerCoug.
Vivi57 tracks Fat_Tony.
Zhero jailkeeps Jack.
StrangerCoug protects Jazzmyn.
Leafsnail hides behind Vivi57.

[Vivi57]

http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/CdBGYy7a5jZuA

good thing we hit SC instead of leafsnail on n2


I think we played day1 and day2 really well. The town was just accusing a bunch of other townies and we were just able to slide right through. Day3 was awful. We got impatient and it showed through our posts. Leafsnail had us figured out by the end of the day. Was initially planning on just waiting till another pro town player put a vote on cruelty, but with the way things were going, that just wasn't going to work. The longer we waited, the worse off we were, so I just waited till jack posted and then put my vote in, hoping zhero got to the thread before jack did.

Day1 was fun. I put in my random defense of tbm hoping people would read that and say "omg, vivi + tbm scum!" and hammer really quickly. Also took suspicion off me for a while. Not sure if it worked completely as intended, but I'd like to think it did.



but overall, I came in here planning on playing newbtown to put attention off me, but I'm used to a 48 hour day/24 hour night so this game took a bit longer than I expected and it threw off what my plan was. The other problem with that plan was that agar had played with me before, but that didn't hurt me much.

[Vivi57]

good game

[Wickedestjr]

Congratulations to the scum for all making it to the end and winning!

As for the modkill, I was very tempted to modkill Sir Cyanide along with The Quintastic One. I didn't think Sir Cyanide was as bad, but he was definitely the cause for The Quintastic One and was also very rude several times so I knew I should've done something.

It appears this setup might not've been balanced. When I created it I thought it was. Sure, the scum had three power roles, but the town had investigative role, two protective roles, and the neighbors which could have proven helpful. Also, the Mafia Godfather was intended to make the scum think there was a cop which I thought could have been detrimental. When the game played out, the scum targetted the town's two most powerful power roles during the night. Keep in mind their power roles didn't really help them that much. Thoughts? Should I have added a vig to the setup? This is my first game modding so I am still figuring out how to setup games. Any suggestions for future games I moderate?

I thank you all for playing! It was very fun modding this game!

[Wickedestjr]

I was getting impatient day 3 for Vivi and Zhero to hammer cruelty. I found it humorous how they posted within a few minutes.

good thing we hit SC instead of leafsnail on n2

I don't think this mattered. If you targetted Leafsnail, SC might've though he had successfully protected Jazzmyn and might've thought this meant Jazzmyn was town.