Mafia 913: Wickedestjr's Mafia - Game Over

[Jack]

It's not activity we need, it's just down to a few people who need to decide who they are voting for.

Vote:Cruelty

[Wickedestjr]

Votecount 24:

cruelty - (1) - Jack

Deadline: March 31.

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

Also, I missed one of Vivi57's most recent posts so I shouldn't have prodded her.

[Wickedestjr]

Prodding Leafsnail.

[Jazzmyn]

We're in a tough position here because we're in LyLo with (probably) three scum alive, so I think it's fear of being wrong that has kind of ground this game to a halt. But I've re-read the entire game several times now and I still find cruelty to be my strongest scum read, so I'm going to stop being fearful of being wrong and go ahead and vote.

Vote: cruelty

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Also, to address some recent posts, I don't see how massclaiming would be of benefit at this stage. We've had a boatload of flips already who have all been town and several have been power roles. I think that any power roles we have left would have claimed if they had useful information to provide, since we're likely in LyLo, so I don't see any useful purpose being served by exposing any such roles at this point.

Regards,
Jazz

[cruelty]

It's not activity we need, it's just down to a few people who need to decide who they are voting for.

Vote:Cruelty

Deadline is March 31, why are you in such a hurry?

[Jazzmyn]

Still think Cruelty is scum, even more so now that Zang flipped town. That's two mislynched he's pushed to L-1 to make the game interesting. Jack's point above is a good one as well.

Leaf and Tony were on both lynch wagons as well, but Tony wasn't at all shy about acknowledging that, so I'm sticking with my town read on him.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

It's not activity we need, it's just down to a few people who need to decide who they are voting for.

Vote:Cruelty

Deadline is March 31, why are you in such a hurry?

Coming from the guy who pushed one townie lynch to L-1 with the 'reasoning', "what the ****, I'm in" and who pushed a second townie lynch to L-1 with the 'reasoning', "stagnation", you'll have to forgive me if I find your post above rather lacking.

Regards,
Jazz

[Fat_Tony]

Jazz presents a convincing argument yet again. This is backed up by the fact that I'm growing more convinced that my anti-Jack read seems to be based on personal dislike of playstyle/attitude, rather than evidence. I've meta'd him a little and he's always like this, so I guess that puts cruelty at #1. I want to vote him, but there's the small matter of putting someone at L-1 in LyLo to consider and I'm just not comfortable doing that. It is possible that jazz and jack are both scum (in my jackscum scenario, jazz is a likely buddy), and I'm leery of giving scum the chance to rapidhammer.

Tl;dr: crueltyscum, I am a pussy.

[cruelty]

It's not activity we need, it's just down to a few people who need to decide who they are voting for.

Vote:Cruelty

Deadline is March 31, why are you in such a hurry?

Coming from the guy who pushed one townie lynch to L-1 with the 'reasoning', "what the ****, I'm in" and who pushed a second townie lynch to L-1 with the 'reasoning', "stagnation", you'll have to forgive me if I find your post above rather lacking.

Regards,
Jazz

lol.

You brought up the fact that we're possibly/probably in lylo.

Your above quote implies disagreement with me. That is, you're advocating a quick lynch here in a situation you acknowledge is probably lylo.


Regardless of my past actions, there is absolutely no need to hurry if we're in lylo. It's pretty clear that one of Jack/Jazzmyn are scum (game is still going), if not both (I'm innocent).

[Fat_Tony]

@cruelty: No, it implies that she thinks you're a hypocrite. Jazz isn't advocating a quicklynch, she's saying that even if they did hurry, it'd be no different to what you did D1 and D2.

Your argument is spurious at best.

[cruelty]

I guess that depends on her alignment.

[Leafsnail]

Well... with 2 votes to hammer, I guess the scumteam could hammer unless cruelty is scum, or unless both his voters are. I don't think it's very likely that both Jack and Jazz are scum, but you guys need to be careful if someone jumps in and puts cruelty at L-1. It wouldn't take a tremendous amount of coordination to pull of a quickhammer at this stage.

Justifying pushing someone to a potential scumhammer situation with "oh he did it too" is not good, especially when we are at lylo. Jazz only stated that cruelty was her strongest read, not that she was in any way sure of his alignment. Since we have time, why vote so early, jazz? Actually, Jack's reasoning isn't much better.

[Jack]

We aren't doing anything with the time. Cruelty was at l-1 yesterday, so it's not like the evidence isn't there.

[Vivi57]

Right now, I'm in the same boat as tony. I really do think that cruelty is scum, but at the same time I'm really scared to vote because I don't want the scum to come out and end it right now. It definitely doesn't help that jack (likely scum) is trying to push the lynch.

[Zhero]

Yeah, the conversation seems to have stalled, I get the feeling we're close to sold on the lynch but nobody wants to move that quickly. Cruelty's been my top suspect for awhile, and I'm willing to put my vote on unless there's anything anyone has left to say.

[Leafsnail]

Yeah, the conversation seems to have stalled, I get the feeling we're close to sold on the lynch but nobody wants to move that quickly. Cruelty's been my top suspect for awhile, and I'm willing to put my vote on unless there's anything anyone has left to say.

Now THIS looks like a scumplayer preparing to seal a mislynch. You weren't really attacking him before (649 seems to comment on Sir C more) but you claim he's been your top suspect, and use inactivity as an excuse. But no, you still have to ask everyone's opinions, just to make sure those already on cruelty don't unvote.

So tell me - why are you "sold" on this lynch, especially considering you've made no real comment about lynching cruelty today before this post? I mean, apart from

That's two mislynched he's pushed to L-1 to make the game interesting.

Which, while anti-town, is hardly damning.

[Jazzmyn]

The forum seems to be acting up, as I've been trying to post this for about an hour and a half now with no luck. I'll try again but if it doesn't go through, I'll probably give up for this evening and try again in the morning before I leave for work.

Your above quote implies disagreement with me. That is, you're advocating a quick lynch here in a situation you acknowledge is probably lylo.

I'm not advocating a quicklynch at all. My above quote to which you refer was to point out your hypocrisy. There is absolutely no danger of a quicklynch here if you are scum - as I think you are - and the fact that one has not occurred supports my scum read on you.

Justifying pushing someone to a potential scumhammer situation with "oh he did it too" is not good, especially when we are at lylo. Jazz only stated that cruelty was her strongest read, not that she was in any way sure of his alignment. Since we have time, why vote so early, jazz? Actually, Jack's reasoning isn't much better.

I'm not voting cruelty because of "oh he did it too" - I'm voting cruelty because he is the player whom I feel most strongly is scum. I thought so when I replaced into the game and I continue to think so now, and nothing that he has said or done in the interim has mitigated my scum read on him.

What are you talking about when you refer to being "sure of his alignment"? Of course, I can't be "sure" because I can only rely upon my reads on players, and I'm far from infallible. Are you suggesting that there's something wrong with voting for a player without being "sure" of his alignment? If so, you have some explaining to do about being on both townie lynch wagons.

Also, Leaf, you were asked five days ago who your suspects are now, but you didn't answer.

Please do so.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

The forum seems to be acting up, as I've been trying to post this for about an hour and a half now with no luck. I'll try again but if it doesn't go through, I'll probably give up for this evening and try again in the morning before I leave for work.

EBWOP: Success! So disregard that part.

Regards,
Jazz

[Leafsnail]

What are you talking about when you refer to being "sure of his alignment"? Of course, I can't be "sure" because I can only rely upon my reads on players, and I'm far from infallible. Are you suggesting that there's something wrong with voting for a player without being "sure" of his alignment?

Firstly, this strikes me as an overexplanation. It seems to be the same thing restated three times in slightly different terms.

Secondly, yes, of course you can never be *sure* of someone's alignment, but you'd expect something more than "my best read" before such a quick vote at lylo. You didn't seem to be sure he was mafia.

Actually, there's another thing that bothers me.

We're in a tough position here because we're in LyLo with (probably) three scum alive, so I think it's fear of being wrong that has kind of ground this game to a halt. But

I've re-read the entire game several times now

and I still find cruelty to be my strongest scum read, so I'm going to stop being fearful of being wrong and go ahead and vote.

You reread over 600 posts three times and yet the ONLY comment you had on it was that cruelty was your strongest read? Nothing on potential interactions, partners, or scummy behaviour from anyone else? Nothing with which to form your own case?

As far as I can tell, the statement made in that post has to be a lie. Town should not lie while giving reasons to vote someone.

If so, you have some explaining to do about being on both townie lynch wagons.

I wasn't even here for the first townie wagon, which you should know, having apparently read the game 4 times. As for Zang - firstly, it was a freelynch, secondly, I was pretty convinced he was scum. Wrongly, as it turned out, but at least I was voting someone who I strongly felt was scum.

As for my suspicions - you, for lying whilst voting cruelty, and Zhero, for attempting to jump on the wagon without being noticed.

[Leafsnail]

Sorry for messing up the quote. I'll remember to put the inverted commas in eventually...

[Zhero]

Now THIS looks like a scumplayer preparing to seal a mislynch. You weren't really attacking him before (649 seems to comment on Sir C more) but you claim he's been your top suspect, and use inactivity as an excuse. But no, you still have to ask everyone's opinions, just to make sure those already on cruelty don't unvote.

My vote was on Cruelty throughout Day 2, and I mentioned he was my primary suspect then. He's my strongest scum read: I don't like the way he deflects attention by promising more information with little follow-up. His only defense seems to be that's it's not scummy so much as lazy, but I'm not sure why I'm supposed to take that at face value.

So tell me - why are you "sold" on this lynch, especially considering you've made no real comment about lynching cruelty today before this post? I mean, apart from

That's two mislynched he's pushed to L-1 to make the game interesting.

Which, while anti-town, is hardly damning.

It's not the votes themselves so much as the motives, or lack thereof. His vote on TBM was the first and really only time he expressed suspicion of him, and his arguement that the lynch was inevitable anyway felt really weird to me in a Day 1 with TQO, Zang, and is-he-a-cop-Jack running around. His vote on Zang is similarily lynch-for-lynching's-sake.

and Zhero, for attempting to jump on the wagon without being noticed.

My intent was the exact opposite. It's looking (to me, anyway) like the Cruelty wagon is building steam, and I'd rather hear from the people that don't agree with the lynch

before

we consign ourselves to another 'inevitable' lynch. If I was as certain as you think, I'd have voted already.

[Leafsnail]

My vote was on Cruelty throughout Day 2, and I mentioned he was my primary suspect then. He's my strongest scum read: I don't like the way he deflects attention by promising more information with little follow-up. His only defense seems to be that's it's not scummy so much as lazy, but I'm not sure why I'm supposed to take that at face value.

I'm having a similar problem here as I was with Jazz. You're saying he's your

strongest read

, which is fine for a freelynch. However, you haven't said that he's scum, or even that you think he's scum. You seem reluctant to commit either way.

It's not the votes themselves so much as the motives, or lack thereof. His vote on TBM was the first and really only time he expressed suspicion of him, and his arguement that the lynch was inevitable anyway felt really weird to me in a Day 1 with TQO, Zang, and is-he-a-cop-Jack running around. His vote on Zang is similarily lynch-for-lynching's-sake.

And the crucial question - why does this make him scum? Would you, as scum, wait around until L-2 and put the vote in to bring it to L-1? If so, why? I just don't see scum motivation behind cruelty's actions, and you aren't demonstrating it.

Sad My intent was the exact opposite. It's looking (to me, anyway) like the Cruelty wagon is building steam, and I'd rather hear from the people that don't agree with the lynch before we consign ourselves to another 'inevitable' lynch. If I was as certain as you think, I'd have voted already.

I actually phrased it wrong, although it looks like you scumslipped due to the mistake anyway. What I meant to say was something more along the lines of "for attempting to jump on the wagon without anyone objecting". Here, however, you have given a perfect summary of why scum are often hesitant to vote on bandwagons. The wagon is building steam, but if you are prepared to lynch him today as scum (which you must be if you put him to L-1 at lylo) then the amount of bandwagon on him should be irrelevant. And if you aren't certain, why were you going to put him at L-1 if noone objected?

[Jack]

Leaf, do you think Zhero is scum with cruelty?

[Leafsnail]

No. If he were bussing, I'd expect an immediate vote accompanied by a strong case.