Open 210: Carbon 14- Game over!

[Jackabomb]

TCP, I have strict rules against any profanity or references thereof. "Just joking" doesn't cut it. Consider yourself modkilled while I write up the death scene.

Just kidding.
*no one laughs*
"So, ummm...yeah...sorry."

And yes, typing small and such is illegal for everyone but me.

Jackabomb's second vote count! The "Don't you feel special that I'm giving up my modlessness for you guys?" edition!

semioldguy-horrordude, Steam;
TCP-mavsfan;
Horrordude-Lacey;
Lacey-TCP;
Steam-easjo;

Not voting-Semioldguy.
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch or no lynch.

[mavsfan41]

[quote="semioldguy"]/let's get dangerous
In other news, I will be using a point system this game. There are six of you and two of you are scum. That gives any of you a 33.3% chance of being scum and as such you all begin with 33 points. If I like you, I'll take some of your points away. If not, then I'll give you more.[/quote

That's a really dumb system for lynching people. So, is your vote just going to be based on who has the most points? By the way you put it, "If I like you" your system is flawed. You're going to base votes of who you like the least? That is a really poor way of voting especially when it doesn't take much to get someone lynched with so few players.


I don't get it, so is TheChestPube modkilled? What's going on there?

[Steam-Powered Shovel]

Chest is not getting modkilled. Jackabomb is just joking.

[Lacey]

That's a really dumb system for lynching people. So, is your vote just going to be based on who has the most points? By the way you put it, "If I like you" your system is flawed. You're going to base votes of who you like the least? That is a really poor way of voting especially when it doesn't take much to get someone lynched with so few players

I have to agree with mavsfan41. Your system seems designed to look mathematically sound by including a percentage, when in fact it's just an arbitrary system.

Why announce it? Trying to frighten people into buddying up to you? This strikes me as anti-town.

FoS: semioldguy

[Lacey]

On a similar topic, I'd like to hear how everyone scum hunts. Let's discuss strategies so we have something to hold everyone to.

Jackabomb:I usually scumhunt by forcing someone to be mafia, then voting them. Ah, the power of modding!

Personally I keep a post by post analysis of every player, and try to sort the posts by whether they feel pro-town or anti-town. But most of all I look for inconsistencies, lies, and attempts to misdirect, or avoid queries.

[Steam-Powered Shovel]

I mostly tend to go with gut reads. My gut is as infallible as the pope.

Personally I keep a post by post analysis of every player, and try to sort the posts by whether they feel pro-town or anti-town. But most of all I look for inconsistencies, lies, and attempts to misdirect, or avoid queries.

[easjo682]

I try to go with my gut, then everyone shoots me down for it because I have nothing to back it up then woah-la at the end of game if theres two scum I generally have one right.
where as when I don't use my gut I generally end up hunting townies.

[semioldguy]

That's a really dumb system for lynching people. So, is your vote just going to be based on who has the most points? By the way you put it, "If I like you" your system is flawed. You're going to base votes of who you like the least? That is a really poor way of voting especially when it doesn't take much to get someone lynched with so few players

First

I

don't lynch people, everyone together makes that decision (or tries to).

No, my vote will not simply be based on the person who has the most points. I'll be putting a vote on whomever I think needs the vote, though people who I think are most likely to be scum are often good candidates for votes and I don't know why you would think otherwise or think that this is poor.

I have to agree with mavsfan41. Your system seems designed to look mathematically sound by including a percentage, when in fact it's just an arbitrary system.

Why announce it? Trying to frighten people into buddying up to you? This strikes me as anti-town.

It's designed to be an arbitrary system, math was just to determine a starting point, I could have easily chosen zero or fifty or any number, it wouldn't matter. What good does it do if I don't announce it? Do you think that me frightening people into buddying up to me is a town tell for the person buddying up? Because I think not. Why is this the conclusion to leap to? People shouldn't focus on trying to buddy up to me, they should be looking for scum. Are you trying to tell me how to run my point system?

On a similar topic, I'd like to hear how everyone scum hunts. Let's discuss strategies so we have something to hold everyone to.

You get 5 points for this. This is not a good idea. Why would you want to let the scum know how you and everyone else scum hunts at the beginning of the game?

Everyone should keep their scum-hunting tactics to themselves until they catch someone with them. You shouldn't alert scum about how you plan to look for them so they can avoid doing what you are looking for. You should only alert them to how you already caught them.

[semioldguy]

EBWOP

Let me be more specific.

Why do you jump to the conclusion that the system could frighten people into buddying up to me?

[semioldguy]

Why are so many people throwing around FoS'es? FoS is lame except under certain circumstances:

(1) Mainly in the case you already have a real vote down and it is a stronger vote/suspicion, which should not be the case here since we are only on page two; (2) When we are at lynch or Lose or some other similarly voting restricted situation; which we are not at lylo; or (3) when putting your vote on the player lynches them, no one is at L-1 yet.

If you just FoS'ed someone, they are your primary suspect, and you aren't voting them yet. Vote them in your next post. Be accountable for your own suspicions. FoS is a sign of weakness.

A question for all of you, why did you choose to FoS instead of vote?

Everyone who just used FoS earned themselves a point.

[Lacey]

On a similar topic, I'd like to hear how everyone scum hunts. Let's discuss strategies so we have something to hold everyone to.

You get 5 points for this. This is not a good idea. Why would you want to let the scum know how you and everyone else scum hunts at the beginning of the game?

Everyone should keep their scum-hunting tactics to themselves until they catch someone with them. You shouldn't alert scum about how you plan to look for them so they can avoid doing what you are looking for. You should only alert them to how you already caught them.

Everyone should discuss something, preferably something we can hold them to. Talking is pro-town.

Your use of your "point" system to try and silence discussion is pretty scummy.

[Lacey]

A question for all of you, why did you choose to FoS instead of vote?

Everyone who just used FoS earned themselves a point.

Because I'm reluctant to put you at L-1. Less so now as you're proving to be annoying.

[semioldguy]

Everyone should discuss something, preferably something we can hold them to. Talking is pro-town.

Talking is not necessarily pro-town. Discussing something that is helpful to scum is not pro-town regardless of whether we can hold someone to it or not.

Your use of your "point" system to try and silence discussion is pretty scummy.

This is a misrepresentation as I am not using my point system to silence discussion. I am, however, using my own knowledge and stating my thoughts in an attempt to prevent anti-town discussion and take a new discussion in a more town-helpful direction.

If anything, my dislike of your question and subsequent points is providing more discussion, not silencing it. Each player can now take a stance on either or neither side and explain his or her own reasoning as to how he or she sees answering your question as beneficial or not to the different factions in this game. So not only was your claim a misrepresentation of my system, it is also untrue of my action.

Not all questions and discussion are good for the town.

You got points for asking a scummy question. If you disagree with my assessment, refute my point. Explain how talking about our personal scum hunting tactics is not helpful to scum in learning how to avoid suspicion from certain players in this game.

For handling the situation in an improper way by both deflecting and straw-manning you have earned three more points.

Because I'm reluctant to put you at L-1. Less so now as you're proving to be annoying.

You get another point.

Why are you reluctant to put me at L-1? If someone else comes and hammers its an easy way to catch scum. It's a small game, L-1 is going to happen and it's less of a big deal than your making it out to be.

Go ahead and put me at L-1. Your hesitance is scummy if I am your top suspect.

Furthermore, voting for someone because they are annoying, though likely to be a null-tell in your case, is a poor way of scum hunting. Unless you can explain why scum are more likely to be annoying or abrasive it is not a valid point. You need to explain why something is scummy or what motivation scum would have to do something.

The game isn't about voting the most annoying person, it's about voting the person most likely to be scum.

Vote: Lacey

As an additional route of discussion from the above. What are people's opinions in holding someone to a certain aspect of playstyle useful in scum hunting. Personally, I find it to be more of an excuse to vote someone later in the game rather than being a genuine scum finding tool. People change as players as they learn more and new things about the game or try new methods in scum hunting. You shouldn't expect any player to completely maintain his or her playstyle, though if you notice a change in playstyle you should try analyze it to see if the change is more likely to come from a scum or town perspective.

[mavsfan41]

I agree with Lacey on this one. She has just tried to explain how to scum hunt and encouraged the town to talk, so I see no reason at all to vote her.

semioldguy, this seems like the flaw in your point system. You are too hasty in voting. Calm down, you should not be worried about being put at L-1 when two of the votes are random. There is not enough evidence this early to vote other than randoming voting at the beginning, speaking of which

Unvote

I'm not sure if we have past that, but I think it's a good time to take my vote of someone I randomly put it on just because their avatar was creepy looking, haha.

p.s. your point system is pretty lame. semioldguy, if I said I didn't like you, you would probably give me some points, making me have the most points, voting me. That's pretty dumb. Hint to scum... try to look good to semioldguy, if you avoid racking up points on his list, he won't vote for you and he'll help you lynch townies who don't agree with him. I think you should adopt a new way of voting people.

[TheChestPube]

TCP, I have strict rules against any profanity or references thereof. "Just joking" doesn't cut it. Consider yourself modkilled while I write up the death scene.

My reaction to this:

-> -> ->

Everyone should keep their scum-hunting tactics to themselves until they catch someone with them. You shouldn't alert scum about how you plan to look for them so they can avoid doing what you are looking for. You should only alert them to how you already caught them.

While I do agree with you that it may help scum avoid suspicions from certain players, I don't really think that it's a particularly scummy question. For one, its a question that has a generic, cookie cutter answer. The basis for most people's scum hunting methods are pretty much looking for inconsistencies, lies, and things that just don't add up.

Secondly, in my last game, a townie asked a question like this. It certainly didn't seem like a detriment to the town in any way, because they still ended up lynching me and my scumbuddy.

Your use of your "point" system to try and silence discussion is pretty scummy.

This is a misrepresentation as I am not using my point system to silence discussion. I am, however, using my own knowledge and stating my thoughts in an attempt to prevent anti-town discussion and take a new discussion in a more town-helpful direction.

So, in other words, you're trying to manipulate the conversation? If you're scum, it makes sense. But if you're town, I still don't think its a very good idea seeing as your opinion is just one person out of 5 pro town people and your idea of a "town-helpful" discussion may be different than others.

...Each player can now take a stance on either or neither side and explain his or her own reasoning as to how he or she sees answering your question as beneficial or not to the different factions in this game...

I don't think your points system helps players to take a stance at all. I think it more keeps them from voicing a solid opinion because they don't want to be awarded with a dreaded "point" but they might not wholly agree with you. Just my opinion.

At the very least, I don't think it's a great idea to be posting things like "for that you get a point" because I think it scares people away from agreeing with the person you gave the point to. If keeping track of points helps you to track scum, by all means, do it, but I don't think its necessary to announce points post by post.


tl;dr : I don't like the points system


And also

Unvote, Vote: semioldguy

If somebody hammers it will make it an easy way to track scum, but I really don't think that either scum or townie would be dumb enough to hammer at this point in the day.

[semioldguy]

I agree with Lacey on this one. She has just tried to explain how to scum hunt and encouraged the town to talk, so I see no reason at all to vote her.

Telling the game how you intend to cum hunt is anti-town. It tells scum how you plan to look for them. How is this good?

You are too hasty in voting. Calm down, you should not be worried about being put at L-1 when two of the votes are random. There is not enough evidence this early to vote other than randoming voting at the beginning, speaking of which

I am hasty in voting when I don't have a point system I am hasty with voting period. You are using my point system as a scapegoat for something that would happen without it. I am a supporter of voting aggressively, players should be accountable for their suspicions. Waiting to vote is advantageous to scum because they can test the waters and see where everyone is thinking about voting and then lead the town toward the wrong votes without actually appearing to do so. Alternatively scum can sit back and wait to follow someone who they know will be wrong and then take little blame for doing so.

Also, I am not worried about being put to L-1. What led you to this conclusion? If anything I encourage people to put me at L-1 if they find me suspicious.

p.s. your point system is pretty lame. semioldguy, if I said I didn't like you, you would probably give me some points, making me have the most points, voting me. That's pretty dumb.

If you said you didn't like me it would have no bearing on giving or taking points. This is baseless speculation. You're assumption is pretty dumb.

Hint to scum... try to look good to semioldguy, if you avoid racking up points on his list, he won't vote for you and he'll help you lynch townies who don't agree with him. I think you should adopt a new way of voting people.

Your "hint to scum" is stupid. It is the equivalent of saying "Look good to player X so they don't vote you." I don't tell people how to look good or bad to me so how are they going to avoid gaining points or losing points if they don't know how? (unlike Lacey I might add, who specifically says how to look bad to her)

Hint to scum: avoid "inconsistencies, lies, and attempts to misdirect, or avoid queries" and Lacey will vote someone else. Also of note, Lacey has already misdirected and avoided queries, two things that she looks for in scum.

@mavsfan41
Are you even reading?

Go read Post 32. I specifically say (to

you specifically

no less) that "my vote will not simply be based on the person who has the most points." Why are you stuck on this?

Perhaps you should reread why I have been giving people points thus far. It isn't for agreeing or disagreeing with me (in fact I very specifically say as much). You get points for doing something scummy. I have both said why players were getting points (none of which have been because they disagree with me) and explained why the reasons I gave are scummy.

For a summary here is the following:

5 points to Lacey
For initializing discussion that is most beneficial to scum. I explained how it was beneficial to scum. Disagreement with my point is fine. I encourage people to disagree, but you need to explain why you disagree. What about my point that I made against her is wrong?

1 point to FoSers
I explained why FoSing is bad for town and helpful to scum. If you disagree, that fine. Be sure to say why you disagree, provide an example in which FoSing is a boon rather than a bane.

3 fors to Lacey
For diverting and straw-manning. I challeneged her point. I didn't give her these points for disagreement with me. I expected her to disagree and to give her points for that would be dumb. I gave her points because I explained how her line of discussion would be bad for town and asked her how it would be beneficial. She both ignored that, not refuting or contesting anything at all, and instead attacked a the point system itself which is straw-manning and also creates a distraction.

NONE of the above are points given for disagreeing with me.

Focusing on the point system itself is stupid. Period. If you have a problem with the point system, then criticize what I am giving out points for, not the system itself. If I didn't have the point system, I would still make the post about why FoS is bad, I would still criticize Lacey for her question which I see as clearly benefiting scum, and I would still be voting her. The point system doesn't change any of this.

[semioldguy]

...Each player can now take a stance on either or neither side and explain his or her own reasoning as to how he or she sees answering your question as beneficial or not to the different factions in this game...

I don't think your points system helps players to take a stance at all. I think it more keeps them from voicing a solid opinion because they don't want to be awarded with a dreaded "point" but they might not wholly agree with you. Just my opinion.

Town shouldn't have any reason to fear the point system if they are town. Again... AGREEING WITH ME OR DISAGREEING WITH ME HAS NO RELEVANCE TO GAINING OR LOSING POINTS.

At the very least, I don't think it's a great idea to be posting things like "for that you get a point" because I think it scares people away from agreeing with the person you gave the point to. If keeping track of points helps you to track scum, by all means, do it, but I don't think its necessary to announce points post by post.

TheChestPube is a good example. This a disagreement that I like, he explains why he disagrees with me and explains the thought process behind his reasoning as well as providing an example of why he thinks my system is bad.

TheChestPube will have three points taken away. His reasons for disagreement are well placed (though I still disagree that the system is bad and I will be keeping it for now.)

[Jackabomb]

Jackabomb's last vote count! The, "Tonight, that is..." edition!

semioldguy-horrordude, Steam,TCP;
TCP-;
Horrordude-Lacey;
Lacey-Semioldguy;
Steam-easjo;

Not voting-No one.
With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch or no lynch.

I believe this is correct. If not tell me and I'll fix it either in the morning or when I get home from school. Good night!

[semioldguy]

While I do agree with you that it may help scum avoid suspicions from certain players, I don't really think that it's a particularly scummy question. For one, its a question that has a generic, cookie cutter answer. The basis for most people's scum hunting methods are pretty much looking for inconsistencies, lies, and things that just don't add up.

(1) That isn't my basis for scum hunting; and (2) Thing like Looking for inconsistencies, lies and things that don't just add up is a problem with scumhunting. Town do all of these things too. What players should be doing is asking themselves why there is an inconsistency and evaluating the motivations and reasoning behind why things change or why a lie happens. Looking at the context of a situation and asking hat the motivation for a player to be doing what they are doing is.

People who scumhunt using this cookie-cutter response cause the town to lose. The human mind does not have a cookie cutter directional guide to what is going on. Many things are circumstantial and heavily rely on context.

Town shouldn't lie... usually. But that doesn't mean they won't lie when they shouldn't and it doesn't mean any player who lies should be lynched. It goes deeper than that.

[Lacey]

Talking is not necessarily pro-town. Discussing something that is helpful to scum is not pro-town regardless of whether we can hold someone to it or not.

If people don't talk, scum don't drop tells. If people don't talk about things which are relevant to the game, scum can lie and we won't catch them in their lies. Scum hunting is a good subject because it is something EVERYONE should be doing, and thus something we should hold everyone to. Scum can't avoid a good hunt, because most good hunts focus on the hunts of others and scum are forced to hunt inconsistently or not at all.

This is a misrepresentation as I am not using my point system to silence discussion. I am, however, using my own knowledge and stating my thoughts in an attempt to prevent anti-town discussion and take a new discussion in a more town-helpful direction.

It's not a misrepresentation at all. You are using your "point system" to try and give yourself an air of authority and to manipulate the discussion it's scummy enough that I'm more tempted to hammer you than I have ever been in my life.

Your actions are manipulative, and anti-town. I think you're trying to cloak yourself in an air of authority to throw off the town.

Lucky for you I'm not a newbie, so the temptation to hammer is just a temptation. As scummy as you are acting (and your behavior has changed from what I can see of your past play via your wiki), we'll make the decision as a town.

Not all questions and discussion are good for the town.

Only if the scum are dumb as rocks. Questions and discussions are how town forms consensus and sniffs out the scum. If scum want help on their scum strategy, they can always check the wiki. We won't be teaching them anything a good reader doesn't always know.

Explain how talking about our personal scum hunting tactics is not helpful to scum in learning how to avoid suspicion from certain players in this game.

Because there is no way for scum to act consistently under pressure. Their entire strategy and facade is built of lies. Forcing people to talk and looking for truth and lies is the single best way of hunting scum. Talking about scum hunting is almost always the first step on the road to a successful lynch.

Why are you reluctant to put me at L-1? If someone else comes and hammers its an easy way to catch scum. It's a small game, L-1 is going to happen and it's less of a big deal than your making it out to be.

Go ahead and put me at L-1. Your hesitance is scummy if I am your top suspect.

We've barely talked for a page or so. I'm not ready to call someone my top suspect until I hear from the rest of the crowd. You're just annoying and coming off scummy from the get go.

But I don't lynch on my gut, and in the past I've been burned by voting for a scummy acting player, who was really just an annoyingly anti-town VT. Which you may very well be.

The game isn't about voting the most annoying person, it's about voting the person most likely to be scum.

Thank you Captain Obvious. If it was about voting the most annoying person, I'd have voted you instead FoSing you.

As an additional route of discussion from the above. What are people's opinions in holding someone to a certain aspect of playstyle useful in scum hunting. Personally, I find it to be more of an excuse to vote someone later in the game rather than being a genuine scum finding tool. People change as players as they learn more and new things about the game or try new methods in scum hunting. You shouldn't expect any player to completely maintain his or her playstyle, though if you notice a change in playstyle you should try analyze it to see if the change is more likely to come from a scum or town perspective.

Well I think it's a great way to find inconsistencies, (nice of you to throw out this given you have changed your play style), but it's not enough for me to make a solid case.

Inconsistencies within a given game, now that is something different entirely.

[Lacey]

Focusing on the point system itself is stupid. Period.

Agreed. I for one don't want to hear you talk about points again. It's about the most annoying and arrogant thing I've seen yet on this site.

If you want to make a case about a suspect, please do, but leave out the annoying point system.

[mavsfan41]

Okay...
Didn't think it would go this far, but I was kinda joking with my last post. Trying to show how dumb your system is.

Originally, this is what you said...
"If I like you, I'll take some of your points away. If not, then I'll give you more."

Now, you have gone all defensive off my post which was kinda me having a little fun with you really dumb system.

If this didn't give it away that I was playing around with a dumb idea, this is taken from my post, PS 38
p.s. your point system is pretty lame. semioldguy, if I said I didn't like you, you would probably give me some points, making me have the most points, voting me. That's pretty dumb. Hint to scum... try to look good to semioldguy, if you avoid racking up points on his list, he won't vote for you and he'll help you lynch townies who don't agree with him. I think you should adopt a new way of voting people.

I thought that after I had posted that, I assumed that everyone would know I didn't really mean much with my post. Me just putting "p.s." I thought was enough for people to know I'm joking around, being sarcastic, apparently not.



On a more serious note, I don't think a townie would get this defensive. Quite possible though. FoS: semioldguy
My bad, FoS is a point for me. I'm at 34 points.

[semioldguy]

If people don't talk, scum don't drop tells.

Wrong.

If people don't talk about things which are relevant to the game, scum can lie and we won't catch them in their lies.

Straw-manning/deflecting. That doesn't mean all relevant talking is good.

Scum hunting is a good subject because it is something EVERYONE should be doing, and thus something we should hold everyone to.

Bad logic. Just because everyone should be doing something doesn't mean it should be discussed beforehand. Holding people to scum hunting doesn't require that you know how that person scum-hunts.

Scum can't avoid a good hunt, because most good hunts focus on the hunts of others and scum are forced to hunt inconsistently or not at all.

This is just simply not true. Scum can hunt consistently.

It's not a misrepresentation at all.

te="Lacey"]You are using your "point system" to try and give yourself an air of authority and to manipulate the discussion it's scummy enough that I'm more tempted to hammer you than I have ever been in my life.

Again, simply not true. I have an air of authority without the point system too. The existence of the point system has no bearing on any manipulation of topics discussed. Those all exists outside of the presence of a point system. I would choose to say the same things, with or without points.

Your actions are manipulative, and anti-town.

I disagree.

I think you're trying to cloak yourself in an air of authority to throw off the town.

You're wrong.

Lucky for you I'm not a newbie, so the temptation to hammer is just a temptation.

I disagree.

As scummy as you are acting (and your behavior has changed from what I can see of your past play via your wiki), we'll make the decision as a town.

My play changes all the time. If it didn't, I would be a useless player as either alignment after about five games from anyone who reads any of my games.

Only if the scum are dumb as rocks.

"Lacey"]Questions and discussions are how town forms consensus and sniffs out the scum.

That doesn't mean all discussion and questions are good for the town.

If scum want help on their scum strategy, they can always check the wiki.

Strategies from the wiki are both outdated and horrible.

We won't be teaching them anything a good reader doesn't always know.

This is wrong.

Because there is no way for scum to act consistently under pressure.

Yes there is.

Their entire strategy and facade is built of lies.

This is incorrect.

Forcing people to talk and looking for truth and lies is the single best way of hunting scum.

No it isn't.

Talking about scum hunting is almost always the first step on the road to a successful lynch.

Nope. Talking about scum hunting is bad. Actually doing scum hunting is good.

We've barely talked for a page or so.

So?

I'm not ready to call someone my top suspect until I hear from the rest of the crowd.

Sounds like something scum would say. Wait to see who everyone else suspects first. I gotcha.

You're just annoying and coming off scummy from the get go.

Yes, I am annoying. Scummy, no.

But I don't lynch on my gut, and in the past I've been burned by voting for a scummy acting player, who was really just an annoyingly anti-town VT.

That's because your method of scum hunting is bad.

Which you may very well be.

Thanks for the role fishing.

Thank you Captain Obvious.

If it was so obvious you wouldn't even mention someone being annoying as being annoying isn't even relevant to the game. (

signed - Cpt. Obvious

)

If it was about voting the most annoying person, I'd have voted you instead FoSing you.

Then you shouldn't have FoSed me, or you should have voted me. Either way you're wrong.

Well I think it's a great way to find inconsistencies, (nice of you to throw out this given you have changed your play style), but it's not enough for me to make a solid case.

Cool. You look for inconsistencies. I'll look for scum.

Inconsistencies within a given game, now that is something different entirely.

No, it isn't.

[semioldguy]

On a more serious note, I don't think a townie would get this defensive. Quite possible though. FoS: semioldguy
My bad, FoS is a point for me. I'm at 34 points.

(1) If you want to award yourself point, make your own point system. Only I can give points from my point system. That's what makes it my point system and not yours.

(2) You don't get a point for that FoS. That point was for FoSes before that post.

(3) Clearly you still have problems reading my posts as your FoS would not have qualified for a point anyway.

[semioldguy]

Agreed. I for one don't want to hear you talk about points again.

Points, points, points!

It's about the most annoying and arrogant thing I've seen yet on this site.

I'll take that as a compliment. I worked very hard for that.

If you want to make a case about a suspect, please do, but leave out the annoying point system.

Only if you agree to leave out your bad logic.