Mini 922 - Mafia in Mo Town [Game Over]

[xRECKONERx]

The first thing.

What do you mean I'm ignoring you? *goes back to re-read posts*

I don't see anything I need to respond to... unless you mean how you call me scum because I had a few of the same thoughts as bob on Lowell's meh catchup post, then say you're gonna lynch me tomorrow... in which case, there's nothing to respond to there, because you have no case on me, just a hunch.

And uh, I responded to your 716. So I honestly have no fucking clue what you mean when I say I'm ignoring you.

[Espeonage]

Welcome Zach. Seems I have more on my plate than i thought. My full run down on everyone will probably be a feature for later on.

[Zachrulez]

Just to update you guys, I'm on page 8 right now.

[KittyMo]

Vote Count XX

[3] Lowell - (hitogoroshi, Netopalis, xRECKONERx)

[3] Netopalis - (Nikanor, Espeonage, AlmasterGM)
[1] Sakako - (almightybob)
[1] kyle99 - (Sakako)
[1] almightybob - (Lowell)

[0] AlmasterGM - ()
[0] Espeonage - ()
[0] hitogoroshi - ( )
[0] Nikanor - ()
[0] xRECKONERx - ()

[1]

Not Voting

- (Zachrulez)

With

10

alive, it's

6

to lynch!

Deadline is at Wednesday, March 10, 2010 at 8:00:00 AM (San Diego time).

Prod Checks

Prodding Sakako; been more than 48 hours since

HIS

last post.

[xRECKONERx]

We only have a week till deadline.

@bob/Sakako/Zach:

I want your opinions of Lowell and Netopolis.

[Espeonage]

Not to do a Nika with the vote count but

Saka is a guy...

>_> <_< Sorry Sakako! The fact that people keep calling you Saka makes your name seem girlier. I really should remember better, considering how many times I've been miscalled a guy in total... It's just been a long day.

+ thanks, Espeonage. =] ~KittyMo

[hitogoroshi]

Also, he (hito) opened the next day by questioning those who didn't believe the JOAT claim.

Even though the JOAT claim was a fakeclaim

. He doesn't bother to explain why knowing (or being right about) the bogusness of monkey's claim translate to scumminess or non-scumminess.

I did explain why - that while it's plausible a townie read it as a fakeclaim from the get-go, it doesn't really make sense that a townie would back off initially, and then try to push a Monkey case after realizing how little support he had, because they would want to lynch the possible JOAT. Yes, it was a fakeclaim: but if you read it as such from the start, why'd you unvote?

(That being said, after reading your post in non-ISO I was reminded it was your response to Neto's 'you just don't lynch a claimed PR without giving them a few nights, which makes me like you a little more and Neto a little less.)

In fact hito's avoiding the situation entirely looks more scummy, and I'm not impressed by how he decided to jump on the wagon after the fact. It's opportunistic as hell to bring up the busted fake-claim and use it to smack people in a way that makes no sense..

I was 'avoiding' the Monkey wagon because I was having time issues. 'After the fact' was the first time I had a chance to really digest it, and kyle's hammer cut that short. What motivation would I have as scum to avoid the Monkey wagon that I wouldn't have as town?

And the entire point of my analysis is bringing up the busted fake-claim BEFORE it was busted. I don't see what's so opportunistic about effectively using a change in information to try to catch scum.

While I don't see much 'lost cause mode' coming from Nikanor, I have noticed this pattern as well (that scum go 'woe is me' well before townies.)

What do you think of Neto's 689?

It's a ittle dig that makes the most sense from town but it's also an easy thing for scum to replicate and it did seem to be a bit fast. I'd say it's a slight scum tell but since Neto doesn't seem like the type to fake his frustration as scum I think I'm happiest calling it null in terms of alignment.

[xRECKONERx]

hito, seriously, could you fence sit any more in that last paragraph? "Town does it, but scum do it too" then you somehow say it's a scumtell based off of, what can I gather, is meta reasoning. Mind providing examples for this meta?

[Sakako]

>_> <_< Sorry Sakako! The fact that people keep calling you Saka makes your name seem girlier. I really should remember better, considering how many times I've been miscalled a guy in total... It's just been a long day.

+ thanks, Espeonage. =] ~KittyMo

Haha, that's perfectly fine. It's kind of part of the reason why I do it anyway. ^^;

But yes, picking up my prod - have been rather busy with Humans vs Zombies at uni; will probably get to posting in the next couple of days after I reread the thread, plus the - what is it, five? seven? I dunno how many pages.

Sorry. orz

[AlmasterGM]

I was 'avoiding' the Monkey wagon because I was having time issues. 'After the fact' was the first time I had a chance to really digest it, and kyle's hammer cut that short. What motivation would I have as scum to avoid the Monkey wagon that I wouldn't have as town?

This still makes NO sense to me. You posted very coherent analysis of whether or not we should lynch Monkey near the end of D1. You said:

Lynch all liars, man. We're taking down monkey today.

So your failure to be on the Monkey wagon had absolutely nothing to do with you not being able to process the information, which is what you are trying to claim now. If that were the case, then you would've posted something like, "hey guys, I need to catch up on the Monkey wagon before I make a decision." Not "I AGREE." No, your reason for not being on the wagon was, as Netopalis pointed out, because you still wanted to make a post and look pro-town that day.

That being said. I don't want to do it quite yet. My reason is, granted, a pretty selfish one - I haven't had much time to get down good solid content in this game and I really don't want the day to end without me having anything down because I know if I don't add anything that's one less townie pushing the game and the less townies pushing the game the easier it is for scum to do so.

Your advocacy here is crystal clear. "I want to lynch Monkey, but I want to get a good post in first." Not only is this self-admittedly selfish, but it has other implications as well. You probably realized that simply waltzing in and hammering Monkey after playing lurk-o-matic the entire day would look like opportunistic bandwagoning and appear scummy as hell,

especially

because, as scum, you knew Monkey was going to flip town. So you delayed and are now trying to pass that move off as "time issues."

tl;dr - You are lying about not having time to process the Monkey wagon and did not vote for him because you didn't want to look scummy.

FoS: hito

[xRECKONERx]

@AGM: I agree with your second paragraph. I do, however, see hito's point when he says:

What motivation would I have as scum to avoid the Monkey wagon that I wouldn't have as town?

Not because he avoided it, but because he was, for all intents and purposes, "on the wagon". He never tried to pass off his avoidance of the Monkey wagon as pro-town, which is IMO just a few minor town points in his favor. But like I said, his reasoning for not hammering Monkey in the first place was awful, because there's nothing he could post D1 that he couldn't post D2, so the scum/town points kinda cancel each other out.

I think we need to see some scumlists. Anyone up for a round of scumlists?

[AlmasterGM]

Not because he avoided it, but because he was, for all intents and purposes, "on the wagon". He never tried to pass off his avoidance of the Monkey wagon as pro-town, which is IMO just a few minor town points in his favor. But like I said, his reasoning for not hammering Monkey in the first place was awful, because there's nothing he could post D1 that he couldn't post D2, so the scum/town points kinda cancel each other out.

There was absolutely no way to successfully pass off avoiding the Monkey wagon as protown, so I don't see why he should get town points for that.

[xRECKONERx]

Then it's a null tell.

[hitogoroshi]

because there's nothing he could post D1 that he couldn't post D2

I'm sure I've already been over this - there was a lot of potential for asking people about Monkey BEFORE this flip, trying to see who had too much information, etc.

And again, I don't understand why people are saying that, as scum, I'd want to delay the Monkey wagon. AGM, (and again, I'm pretty sure I've been over this), my desire to delay was not to process whether or not I wanted to lynch Monkey - it was to use the decision point of 'before Monkey's lynch' and because I get antsy when I've had no bearing on the major wagon of the day (in addition to trying to pin down other wagons, I thought it'd be interesting to try to gauge people's interests in other wagons - I think you guys can kind of figure out what you'd learn from this.)

[Nikanor]

Just an update for those of you who do not understand the Arabic number system: we now have five days until the deadline. If Neto is not lynched today I will be very upset. I fully recommend a shift of every vote that is not on a wagon (i.e. bob, Saka, Lowell, Zach) to move to one of Lowell or Netopalis now. Remember that we still need to give ourselves time to lynch someone else if a cop or something is claimed.

[almightybob]

Sorry guys, another of my games just came to a dramatic conclusion over the last few days and it's been occupying a lot of my time and mind.


Last time I posted, I said that I remember Neto saying "*shrug* it's my meta" a lot.
He was right, the only time I saw him using meta as a defence was regarding RVS participation.

However, it's not the only time he shrugs off a point against him and makes a noncommital response, or

implies

a meta defence without explicitly saying it. Observe:

*shrugs* I was just stating that I don't feel comfortable lynching without hearing him respond. I've been in several games where some newbie comes along and hammers before we get a chance to hear a defense.

Note implied meta defence - it's happened several times in other games.

*shrugs* The problem I had was with you setting it up so far in advance. It looked as if your posts were designed not to build a case, but to justify a switch later.

No subtle meta, but the inclusion of the shrug makes the stated opinion seem vague. Take a stance, man.

*shrugs* My only point was that I don't like to participate in RVS and that I do it in all of my games. I didn't even say that you had to find it that authoritative.

This is the one he admits to.

*shrugs* I don't often bus. Also, like I said yesterday, I work much, much better on D2. There's more to analyze and it plays more to my style. Finally, I don't think you can see a strong connection between us on D1. Regardless, Lowell's the play today, I feel.

Another implicit meta defence with "I don't often bus".


When I reread Lowell, I have to say I didn't spot anything overtly scummy. Is the case against him based on the fact that he hasn't posted all that much? Because that's a little weak.

If I had to choose between Lowell and Neto (and it looks like it's going to be one of the two today) I'd probably pick Neto. I'm going to keep rereading him and probably vote in a few hours unless I find something obvTown about him.

[Netopalis]

1 is stating my experience with regards to a specific scumtell. It is not a meta defense because it is not me saying that I have done something in other games in which I was town. That is not a meta defense by any stroke of the imagination.

In 2, the *shrug* is because I was honestly tired with the pointless back-and-forth that the conversation with Monkey was developing into.

In 3, yeah, it's a meta defense. This is one of the rare times when I feel that it's acceptable - something quantifiable that I literally do in every game regardless of alignment.

In 4, I'm not entirely sure what I was thinking when I posted that. I wouldn't expect anybody to take it as a major defense.

Finally, did you read my case against Lowell? I'd like your comments on it.

[almightybob]

Yeah, I read your case on Lowell.
Some of the points I agree with, some I see where you're coming from but disagree with the conclusion, some I'm confused as to why you left them out.

Quick thoughts in bold to the points I have issue with (if it's not here, that means I agree with your analysis):

5) Strange post altogether - the whole "I think scum would play as X" is a bit weak. -

On its own, maybe, but link it with iso 6.

6) Weak reasoning for a vote given the lateness in the day -

Mmm... I don't think that drawing attention to and putting pressure on a lurker is all that bad, considering he just said he thinks it'll be a scum tactic this game. If you follow it on from iso 5 it's fine in my eyes.

7) Decent post, better than most, but it really doesn't advocate any position. -

Doesn't necessarily specify any positions on who is scum, but still a useful post I think. Speaks out against what he sees as a bad decision from the whole Town, where I think the better scum play would be to blend.

10) Agreement, strange logic leading to a weak result. -

Again, on its own perhaps, but combine it with iso 11 where he emphatically states his conviction that monkey is scum.

14) "Yeah, I'd like to lynch somebody else, but I'm going to keep my vote over here because it looks townie" -

His vote was placed against DRK to get a Fibonacci sequence going, it clearly wasn't serious. In his very next post, iso 15, he upgrades his FoS to a vote. I don't see an inconsistency here.

18) Attacking the easy target - the second-best target from the previous day. -

I sort of agree with Lowell, although admittedly it could be because I still suspect Sakako a bit.

Altogether, these posts show that Lowell is afraid to take a solid position and seems to be far too eager to be in the majority in any case. -

He takes a pretty solid position against monkey in iso 11 and 15. I'm not sure why you left those two posts out of your analysis.

[Zachrulez]

I'm on page 19 now. I hope to be finished reading tonight or tomorrow.

The deadline is closing in though... so it's going to cut uncomfortably close to the deadline here.

Mod: Is there any chance of getting an extension to the deadline?

[xRECKONERx]

Everyone should vote, dammit.

Zach, who is scum? You should've reread by now.

[Sakako]

I'm still rereading too, but for now, I like Nik's idea.

Vote: Netopalis

He's more on my radar, for various reasons.

[KittyMo]

Vote Count XXI

[4] Netopalis - (Nikanor, Espeonage, AlmasterGM, Sakako)

[3] Lowell - (hitogoroshi, Netopalis, xRECKONERx)
[1] Sakako - (almightybob)
[1] almightybob - (Lowell)

[0] AlmasterGM - ()
[0] Espeonage - ()
[0] hitogoroshi - ()
[0] Nikanor - ()
[0] xRECKONERx - ()
[0] Zachrulez - ()

[1]

Not Voting

- (Zachrulez)

With

10

alive, it's

6

to lynch!

Deadline is at Wednesday, March 11, 2010 at 8:00:00 AM (San Diego time).

I'm on page 19 now. I hope to be finished reading tonight or tomorrow.

The deadline is closing in though... so it's going to cut uncomfortably close to the deadline here.

Mod: Is there any chance of getting an extension to the deadline?

Granted! As now seen in the deadline counter, you've got an extra day. I may consider adding another extra day. Don't expect more than that.

Prod Checks

Close to Prod:

AlmasterGM | 04 Mar 2010 13:00:00
Espeonage | 03 Mar 2010 21:00:00

Being Prodded:

Lowell | 03 Mar 2010 09:00:00 [This is his 3rd prod. If this lack of posting continues, he may be force-replaced.]

[xRECKONERx]

Lowell case > Neto case

[Zachrulez]

I've seen enough.

Vote: Nikanor

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=342

Compare with...

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=612

I am noticing an alarming pattern from Nikanor, where he will lurk, and then complain about the level of posting in the game when he's scum.

What's even worse is that Nikanor did exactly 0 scumhunting till about page 17. This is inexcusable. What he came up with when he actually started posting wasn't much either. A vote for Almaster? An offwagon vote on Neto? What's this crap? It looks like you're trying to build a town resume to me... and I'm not buying it for a second.

The most activity I have seen from you was your little spat with Bob at the start of the day where you were fighting over the validity of lynch all lurkers vs lynch all liars, a fight that feels fake to me in an effort to make both you and Bob look more proactive to the town. (I think he's probably scum too.)

How is it that this crap divides you so harshly, but Bob was so quick to jump to your defense when you were lurking agreeing with you about the ridiculous level of posting in the game? I just can't fathom this... I can't believe no one's wagoning you!

I also don't really understand why Neto and Lowell are being run up... maybe someone can explain it to me?

[Espeonage]

Sorry, I didn't realise I was getting close to prod again. My newbie game is more exciting atm.
Anyways. I don't really have much to say. I don't see any obvious scum atm. That said there are a few people who are looking on the bad side. The thing is that I have a suspicion that scum are some of the more active people and are somewhere arguing with each other well.