Mini 935 -- The Fountainhead (Completed)

[cruelty]

played with quite a few of you before i see

[cruelty]

I read the rules, I just don't like fruit. Also, Lorenzo Lamas.


I'm gonna

vote: d3x

. No reason.



Don't have much to add at this point, I'm not feeling that well so I'll be in and out the next day or two.

[cruelty]

Not inclined to be concerned about Zang - he's in an ongoing game which obviously I can't discuss.

B) He's pandering to someone pressuring him, it doesn't feel like he's voting because he thinks it's the right thing to do (or he would've done it before) but instead because he wants to appease the person voting him.

That's how I read it. That said, I'm unwilling to push his wagon any further because I know that I've done this in the past as town (and I don't want to be a part of a day 1 quicklynch),


Spyrex, why are you so bloodthirsty?


RC:

You asked what my reply to Zang accusing me of not reading the rules was. I answered in this post:

I read the rules, I just don't like fruit. Also, Lorenzo Lamas.

I'm gonna vote: d3x. No reason.

Don't have much to add at this point, I'm not feeling that well so I'll be in and out the next day or two.

You then quoted later in your post the second two sentences from the above post. Hmm.

oh yeah,

unvote

.

[cruelty]

That's how I read it. That said, I'm unwilling to push his wagon any further because I know that I've done this in the past as town (and I don't want to be a part of a day 1 quicklynch),

So would you be voting for Almaster if he had less votes? (i.e is he your scummiest).

Hey guys, crypto here.


Yeah I'd prob sling him a vote. I'm nowhere near suspicious enough to lynch though.

[cruelty]

Why are you renaming yourself crypto? Do you expect us to call you that?

i was joking about budja's post where he quoted me as 'crypto'.

[cruelty]

He has a single Vote on him. What gives? How many fewer Votes on him would you like him to have?

He had at least 4 at one point, I said that before the latest votecount; I'm not sitting here tallying for current vote counts at this point in the game.

vote agm

This feels familiar somehow.

[cruelty]

Not inclined to be concerned about Zang - he's in an ongoing game which obviously I can't discuss.

I kept trying to compute this and it did not make sense. Every result arrived at metafail.

I'm not sure how much I can talk about, don't want to break the rules. I tend to think VI though. On that subject d3x, I genuinely don't believe it's an act.

If it's familiar, why are you voting for me? I was TOWN last time. Can you explain what this means and what your logic is for it?

Yeah, I thought your vote seemed contrived, less about suspicion and more about appeasement.

I still feel like I felt in Nice'n'Fun though, in that cruelty just oozes scum to me

lol, sorry.

[cruelty]

That said, my vote is still on cruelty and will remain so until post #98 is resolved. "I'd vote him if he had less votes on him." <- explain this line of reasoning, and then your subsequent vote on him after it was pointed out by d3x he only had one vote.

I've already addressed this.

I was going by the latest votecount which showed AGM at 4 votes. I didn't bother going through and re-tallying the votes. When d3x pointed out he only had 1 vote on him, I was comfortable with voting him given that there was little to no danger of my vote inadvertently causing a quicklynch to occur.


Actually, now that I look back, I see that I addressed this in the post above your vote for me, so it seems a little strange that you aren't aware of it.

[cruelty]

I read you explanation. I didn't like it.

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

If you think he is town and is suspectible to a L-2 quick lynch (yeah I wish scum would suicide themselves like that on D1), why are you voting him at all regardless of what votes he is at?

The only, "he has too many votes on him, otherwise I would vote him" argument I would accept is if he would be hammered by your vote. L-1 is up for debate, I agree that no one has done anything to warrant L-1 yet, but L-2? No reason you can't put him there if he's your suspect.

It's page 5, day 1. There's no way I'm not going to have doubts about my vote - I'm happy and willing to concede that AGM, despite being the scummiest player in the game (imo, of course) at this point is quite possibly town. With that in mind, I'm not going to ramp up the votes this early, with so little information out there.

Would scum suicide like that on day 1? Probably not, but why take the risk of losing important town assets this early on?

[cruelty]

Ironically it's now page 6.

[cruelty]

What?

My thinking is this: AGM in my mind was at L3. If I put him at L2, then it just takes one gimp to come bumbling along and vote him (and I'm very conscious that Zang is in the game), then scum can quickly hammer, getting 2 chances to knock off town assets + gaining the benefit of town going into day2 essentially blind. I don't really want that to happen; I might be naively optimistic but I'm holding out hope that we'll happen upon a relatively sure thing rather than lynching someone based on weak reasoning which is the inevitable hallmark of a day 1 lynch.

Of course I agree that two scum would be a great trade for 2 town, regardless of their role. I'm not stupid. All I'm trying to do is ensure that town controls the lynch. At this moment in time, whilst if forced to lynch one person it would be AGM (hence my vote), I'm not entirely happy with the evidence against him. It's just that it's so early in the game that there's not really a whole heap of information out there to push a legitimate, logically solid lynch.

I really, really don't like how there's preconceived notions of how one should play on this site. It's like there's criteria you have to adhere to in order to be considered town, which is completely backwards. That said, do your thing, I'm not entirely sure why my exercising caution is voteworthy though.

[cruelty]

This is assuming that AGM is not scum but i do believe that your explaination makes sence.

Well as I said, I don't have a strong scum read on him at all. Merely the strongest.

[cruelty]

It's fairly clear that if someone quickhammered D1 then D2 would basically be a turkeyshoot.

With Spyrex leading the charge I can't really believe that D2 would see much meaningful discussion in the event of a D1 quickhammer. We'd be essentially blind - there'd be the #1 target, standing head and shoulders above everyone else, and I suspect the day would end quite rapidly. It really wouldn't be optimal.

[cruelty]

Hold up what in the hells bells does this have to do with me?

And I'm not sure how those two paragraphs mesh - D2 is a turkeyshoot if there's a quickhammer (pretty much yea). However that means there is one clear "hey, I am scum" target and when he gets killed thats.. bad?

You're bloodthirsty, this is common knowledge. It's not beyond the realm of comprehension that you'd push a fast lynch tomorrow, especially on someone with a high likelihood of being scum.


I just don't really think that the lack of information + loss of 3 town lives (I wasn't thinking big enough, a quicklynch tomorrow = another townie dead night 2) is worth the life of one dumbass scum.

[cruelty]

No, but there's no need to be rash.

[cruelty]

I have no idea what you're referring to but alright.

[cruelty]

huh, thought I'd posted in here recently. My bad.


Miller claim... seems pretty obvious who's getting lynched today. I won't hammer in this post because apparently I haven't posted in a while (again, sorry), so if there's anything I need to comment on, then I'll do that first. If nothing comes up before I goto bed (6 hours) then I'll hammer.

I'm serious, in many of the few games I've been in (including this one), I see people randomly accusing people of being scum and they make up scum tells. Many of theese "scum tells" are actually null or even town. For example, Cruelty was accused of lieing but no matter how good the reasoning is, (not) reading the rules is a null tell. I find real scum that kill townies like possibly horror/deathsauce (and welcome!) and I have to admit that if I was one of you I would be tempted to vote for myself.

It's posts like this that really confuse me about Zang. For the most part, this post is actually fairly lucid and logical (ignoring that it's partly about me, I'm talking about

how

he's writing), which is in stark contrast to many of his other posts. I don't really understand this at all; in the previous game I played within him you saw this sort of post and it made me think that it was a crafty scum playing behind an idiot's facade, but it seems to be a constant. I have absolutely no read on him at all - everything he says and does can be attributed to either lunatic town or devious scum, and honestly there's no way to tell between the two.

These two gems (as Spyrex pointed out) sort of illustrate my point:

I don't think anyone pointed it out (it's pretty obvious) but miller is the perfect scum claim because if a cop investigates him the cop would assume that he got a guilty result because you are a miller.

And that Is the obvious responce to a Vote about a miller claim and so on.

I just don't get it.

If I were vig, I'd shoot SpyreX.

why?

@spyrex: why not investigate zang?


Why directing possible PRs?



I feel like there's some sort of conclusion being reached that's flying way over my head, can someone explain?

[cruelty]

Incidentally the grand conclusion about my zang musing is that I don't think he's ever a really acceptable lynch given he's such a wildcard (both town and scum benefit from lynching him regardless of his alignment).

[cruelty]

Sorry, forgot to hammer last night. Got caught up in MW2.


The reason I don't think that Zang is a good lynch is because I don't think scum would hesitate to bus him, and I also don't think town would hesitate to vote him. Thus, little to be learned from his lynch regardless of the flip.

I see there are calls for d3x to post, I'll let this go for now.

[cruelty]

unvote, vote: deathsauce

[cruelty]

Ok, fine, but how does this relate to our previous game?

I found you suspicious then and I find you suspicious now. Less so now, it has to be said.

[cruelty]

I hammered because I said I would yesterday. Don't really care about your presence on or off the wagon to be honest.


Modern Warfare 2, I'm addicted.



Also I cracked the fuck up when I read 281. Zang you my boy.

[cruelty]

why?

[cruelty]

I'm in.

vote: DDP

[cruelty]

I don't really know what goes on in Zang's brain.


I'm not really sure that we can read much into the DDD wagon, once a guilty verdict is in there's no incentive for scum to argue against the lynch. Therefore I tend to think that a position on or off the wagon is essentially null. At the very least, given how short the day was, I'm not about to condemn anyone for not being on it.

[cruelty]

Actually I think Porkens mentioned it earlier, but it seems unlikely that mafia have two roleblockers, so AGM must have gotten a result last night. What was it and why haven't you mentioned it yet?

[cruelty]

Hang on.

Your case against me is based on the varying degrees with which DDD (proven scum) interacted with me? You got any instances where I'm actually doing something scummy, or is this all related to the -only- (proven) villainous player in the game?

I understand the drawing connections deal but you're not actually building a case against me here at all. Remove the DDD quotes and you have my hesitation to leap to a lynch on day 1. Which, incidentally, has subsequently proven a reasonably astute play (given the central role AGM played in DDD's lynch).

I'm not particularly thrilled about this to be honest, I don't really rate your case, I think you're walking well-trodden ground with the day1 lynch stuff, and I think picking and choosing select things that scum said is dangerous (at best).

cruelty: The more I think about it, the more I don't think AGM should give his innocent results unless we are trying to lynch that person. I say this because as soon as he does, it puts a target on their back. Assuming AGM doesn't get their role in w/e method he receives their alignment, he could have targeted the guy saving him. If he told us and put a target on that persons back, he inadvertently killed off the next person.

I don't really see the issue here. Scum already know who is innocent. All an innocent verdict will do is knock another name of the lynch-list and make life harder for scum. Even the night kill becomes a guessing game - do they hit AGM or do they hit the confirmed townie? Who's the doctor protecting? It's pro-town chaos, great.

This actually reads like you're scum trying to sound pro-town. I don't really like it, so I'm gonna jump on this wagon.

vote: kthx

I think this puts him at L1.


Incidentally I'm not ruling out the slight possibility that AGM is ballsy, bussing scum. Just sayin'..

[cruelty]

(everything above the quote is directed at RC)

[cruelty]

Actually, I was a one-shot vigi and I killed zang last night.

I'll deal with your post later RC.

[cruelty]

How do you explain DDD's relationship with you? Do you think he was sincerely interested in pressuring you? In lynching you?

Non-existant, don't know. Yep, inasmuch as he'd like to lynch an innocent.

I noticed you never really had any discussion with him and vice versa.

You addressed him a grand total of once. Should I read into that? Maybe I should, that one time was you disagreeing with him then going off on an unrelated (to DDP) tangent. Your iso 1, incidentally. This some sort of early-game distancing or what?

Also, you on the Kthx wagon, despite Kthx hammering DDD, seemed a little peculiar. I mean, you put Kthx at L-1 without really giving it a second thought,

Did it? I explained why I voted him (he sounded to me like scum trying to sound pro-town) quite clearly. As for putting him at L1, shrug, I wasn't expecting a self-hammer. I think it was a weak play given that he -was- behaving scummy and it's possible (not probable) that there's all town on his wagon.

But you were scared to vote Almaster during D1,

It seemed very contradictory to me.

D1 is different to the midgame. I'm really hesitant to push a D1 wagon unless I have a very strong read or the deadline is approaching. Mid-game I generally have better reads and/or information. If I make it to mylo or lylo then I'll be playing safe and slow again. Right now, not so concerned.

It seemed very contradictory to me.

I'm not particularly thrilled about this to be honest, I don't really rate your case, I think you're walking well-trodden ground with the day1 lynch stuff, and I think picking and choosing select things that scum said is dangerous (at best).

Well what did you get from reading DDD on D1 after his flip? Nothing?

I learned that the one time he mentioned you D1 was... well, he didn't. He quoted you and responded to your request for him to post. If we're gonna play the strange relationships with DDD game then bring a mop, it'll get messy.

I don't know if there were two mafia on that wagon, but I think we can all agree there was at least one.

Why?



You know what else I noticed?

Post 334, you note that both Porkens and Budja amde strong arguments - both were all over Kthx. You follow this up with a little bit of a dig at Kthx yourself, then abruptly launch into a failure of a case incriminating myself and Fate along with DDD. Capped, of course, by a vote for me. Reading back on that post, through your quotes and conclusions, it really stands out as being incredibly flimsy. I'll elaborate on this a little later, for now I need sleep.

[cruelty]

@Cruelty, and reasoning for shooting Zang last night as opposed to N1, or N2?

N1 = no real reads (didn't want to accidentally kill someone of importance).

N2 = still no real reads given the speed at which DDD was lynched.



Decided that Zang is essentially an unreadable player, and therefore getting rid of him would be beneficial to town regardless of his alignment. I didn't want him alive in mylo/lylo because he has a tendency to be highly distracting and instrumental in causing chaos. I guessed that N3 was probably the last night I could be 100% sure that me killing town wouldn't end the game, so even though D2 was extremely short, I had to either use my shot then or hope that AGM came through with more info. Given that he said nothing in D3 I figured that even if he had good info for us, they'd be lynched, so I'd still be shooting blindly.

[cruelty]

Anyways, regardless of cruelty's actual role, him claiming the second shot makes it unlikely he was DDD's partner. That doesn't necessarily mean that he's town-aligned though.

Eh? Why?

You know that the first shot was the mafia kill?

[cruelty]

This is tricky to articulate, hopefully it makes sense.

Get real, cruelty. My accusation was serious. DDD's vote on you was sketchy, and I'll hold to that forever and a day.

To be honest, I'm not convinced. I asked directly and clearly for someone to point toward a "softclaim" or breadcrumbing from earlier in the game, and no one has been able to do so yet. Moreover, if I recall correctly, cruelty was absolutely not on board with a scumZang read, and argued, instead, for scumAlmaster on D1. I don't recall cruelty ever documenting a change in opinion over this, but if someone can prove me wrong I will drop the point.

Anyways, regardless of cruelty's actual role, him claiming the second shot makes it unlikely he was DDD's partner.

Quotes 1 and 2 contrast heavily with quote 3.

1: DDD's vote on me was scummy (and therefore I'm scummy).
2: RC isn't convinced by my claim, thinks it's scummy. Or at least, he's looking for ways to make me look scummy.

Then all of a sudden in quote 3 he's separating me from DDD; it's now unlikely that I'm mafia, I must be an SK (or some other anti-town role). What I don't understand, is why you're making this separation - in your scenario it makes more sense (in my mind) for me to be mafia opportunistically claiming our (my hypo mafia team's) kill on zang to be a vigi kill, whilst a third party killed Budja. That scenario would fit a lot more neatly with your belief in a cruelty/ddd scumbuddy system than outing me as some lunatic third party.

Therefore, I have to conclude that your belief in my guilt isn't actually all that strong, and the most likely reason for this is the fact that you know (by virtue of being mafia) that I'm town.

I think it was a weak play given that he -was- behaving scummy and it's possible (not probable) that there's all town on his wagon.

It's very unlikely and you know it. I'll acknowledge the first part, he was definitely behaving scummy. But for you to push the idea that all remaining scum are between me, d3x, and Almaster is silly. The scum knew Kthx was town, and the town didn't. Period.

I said it was possible. I thought the unlikely part was implied.

And yeah, the scum knew he was town, and you also acknowledge he was scummy. Why is it unreasonable to acknowledge that it's possible (however unlikely) that the scum sat back and let town lynch him?

I don't know what makes it flimsy. I was right about Budja, I was right to hold my suspicions back of Kthx (unlike, say, you), and I'm going to be right in my conclusion that at least one of you and Fate are scum.

It's entirely dependent on what DDD (a known villain) said. Your quotes are all DDD, except for three of mine, one of which you agree with and the other two having nothing to do with DDD whatsoever. This isn't a two-way relationship you're trying to desperately to expose, it's a bunch of crap said by a villain that you're trying (and failing) to link to me. Flimsy.

[cruelty]

I'll go with y'all. Even if only because I want to see what happens to cruelty overnight.

What exactly are you trying to do here? Drawing attention to me at this point means that anything that does happen becomes wifom.

[cruelty]

i'm just glad to have finally got the chance to nk someone after months of playing this game.

ps: rc you gotta end this vendetta you got against me, i aint done no crimes.

pps: sorry zang. you still my boy.