Newbie 922: Day 3

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Some questions to get us started:

1) Have you played with anyone on this list before?
2) What is your prior mafia game experience?
3) What is your favorite fruit?
4) Self-identify an aspect of your personality or mafia-playstyle.


1)nope.
2) I've played somewhere around ~10 games, all on this website.
3) Strawberries.
4) I tend to fan out and spread suspicion on multiple players, than ultimately pick one that seems scummiest and focus on them. My problem is that sometimes I'm unable to stop focusing on that one person, even if they start to appear to be pro-town. I'm working on it. I don't always follow this pattern.

vote: Panacea

[BridgesAndBaloons]

^Good posting.

I'm getting more and more comfortable with my Panacea vote.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Cojin, do you have any idea why I voted for her?

It was no random vote.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

No, looking at his question alone, there's no threat. But did you read his answer? His was an admission that he has a tendency to tunnel. He may've

worded

a request for playstyle, but he was asking for weaknesses. I think not. And I'm fresh from a scum game, so maybe I'm jumping hte gun, but look at his own answer this way:

a) He's Town. Now scum know that with the right amount of manipulation, he could more easily than your next player be encouraged to tunnel on a Townie.

b) He's scum. Now he can get away with just a bit more tunneling than your average bear, and pull the "Well I told you I happen to do that!" defense.

Either way, it's a bad idea.

a) Not to sound cocky, but I am probably by far the most experienced player in this game (perhaps havingfitz is about average if he's really active, or maybe someone here is an alt). This doesn't mean I never act scummy or I always vote for scum, but I don't even think it's a possibility that someone of less experience is going to manipulate me. I'm not trying to be patronizing here, but I'm very aware of following other people's cases. You also haven't realized the potential that we now have an additional scum tell in this game. Anyone who tries to take advantage of my tunnelling is probably scum.

b) as an IC, I shouldn't get away with anything. The two other ICs at the very least should be harder me -- but really everyone should. I don't have a "newb-mistake" excuse.

Also, here is something really important, enough for me to box it and make it IC tip number 1

IC tip 1

If someone is aware of her* meta, you must disregard any defense she does by using her meta. For instance, if I say my meta is to tunnel, that means I am aware of my meta, and I cannot use it as an excuse. I could very well be scum manipulating my meta for all you know. This very issue helped scum win my first newbie game, and ever since I've disregarded any meta that people are self-aware of as terms of a town-tell.

*I'm a progressive masculinist so I like to use "her" or "xe" instead of "he" for gender-neutral situations.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Can you provide links to your completed games, Panacea?

But of course:

My first game was Newbie #863, as Vanilla Townie (fun stuff- four Doc claims)
My second was Newbie #890, as Vanilla Town. More fun; just ended less than an hour ago.
Third was Newbie # 868, as Mafia Roleblocker. I replaced into that one on the last Day as a favor with deadline a few days away. If you're going to judge my scumplay, I'd prefer you not hold that one against me.
My fourth was Newbie #879, as Roleblocker. I'm rather proud of that one.

Acostmist:

Did you learn anything about panacea from looking at these games? Does her behavior seem to be more like her scum-persona or her townie-persona?

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Do I? Where do you get that? No, not in the least. The "tells" against me are exaggerated to the point of hilarity. But at the very least, I'm getting a wonderful feel for those players on my wagon, their reasons (or lack thereof), and the speed at which they hopped it.

you actually do seem really worried, based on the fact you're omgusing me (someone who claimed to have real reasons for voting you) and that you're talking about how "you've got a player put at L2, RVS of D1, at

twenty-two

posts, only four of them by the accused player. Does no one see a problem here? ."
Good thing that being worried isn't much of a scumtell.

However, you cannot say my tells have been exaggerated to the point of hilarity, as I have yet to reveal my tells.

Explaining RVS and RQS was fine...but then following it up with the “Which sounds best” question seemed to be just a bit over the top. Like you were trying to determine the way the players would want to proceed before doing so.

I find that the debate over which, RVS or RVS, is preferable to be an efficient tactic to get reads on (typically) the more advanced players. But sorry, you're right, I should've broadcasted that when asked earlier so y'all wouldn't vote me for it.

I wouldn't dismiss this argument if I were you. In a second I will check your previous games to see if you have experienced the debate between RVS or RQS as "preferable to be an efficient tactic to get reads on."

So now I'm going to offer an SE lesson.

1) This game has no humorous flavor. Whatsoever. We need to fix it. If you think we're at a decidedly un-fun stage now, imagine how uninteresting it is for a player being railroaded with dressed-up "tells". Can we lighten up here, please?

2) You've got a player put at L2, RVS of D1, at

twenty-two

posts, only four of them by the accused player. Does no one see a problem here?

Actually, the real problem here is that we have some lurkers I think.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Alright, it's about now to reveal my reasons for my vote:

Panacea's first post came across as overly helpful, which only seemed scummy in tandem with the fact that she didn't take a side. She talked about the choice between RVS and RQS instead of making a single vote or question. It seemed a little odd and wanting to go with the majority. Now, granted, at this time I had never heard the idea of learning from the debate between RVS and RQS. In fact, I still find very little value in theory-discussion for finding town or scum. Theory discussion is helpful for newbies to learn, though.

So I decided to vote for her since she didn't make a vote or question.

Her overt worry of putting someone at L-2 (still really far away in a newbie game, and if that person was quick-hammered by scum, that directly shows us scum the next day, so L-2 is not really a concern right now) sort of compounded my ideas that she was being overtly careful.

On post 16 she does the same thing, entirely avoiding the bandwagons that help us sort scum from town. This might be more anti-town than scummy behavior.

Boiled down case: helpfulness without committing to definite action, overly careful.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

@Bridges: Would you mind providing an appropriate abbreviation?

Sorry, missed this before.

You can call me Bridges, Bab, B&B, or

Dr. Awesome

really anything that makes it clear you are referring to my user name. I guess Baloons or Balloons would work, too.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

@54, I'm fully aware that my case seems to be recycyled from others, but I can gurantee those were my reasons for keeping the vote. As for withholding reasons, I find it generates more interesting reactions to give votes without reasons early game. It also subtly hints at the idea of generating a bandwagon, which is the most useful information-gathering tool town has Day 1.

unvote

I've about gotten what I think I'm going to get out of that vote.

Sorry guys but first and foremost I am responding to a prod, but I have and will be over the next 2 days busy with university starting again and my commitment to the frisbee club and other important societies there I will not be active but I shall try and do some reading tonight and report back asap!

You did not foresee these conflicts when you joined up?

FoS Independent John

for coordinated lurking.

FOS: Havingfitz

Bridges

: Are you scum? If not, why are you lying?

I'm not scum, and I haven't lied once this game. Also, I have stopped beating my wife... er I mean I haven't stopped...

[BridgesAndBaloons]

wow, this game is incredibly experienced for a newbie game.
4ICs
2SE
3 newbies.

woh.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Even if I can marginally accept this lack-of-reason business in regards to a vote, that does not extend to FoS'es. They carry very little weight when justified; they provide none whatsoever when left to the imagination. Will you elaborate on that FoS?

Panacea, you should probably be aware that there are numerous advantages to marking things without explaining including but not limited too: making memos to yourself, making memos to yourself that you can refer back on later, gauging reactions, thinking that people with a similar mindset (more likelihood of same alignment) won't need an explanation -- that's actually a huge pro-town tell for me, when someone sees something the same way I do since scum tend to think far different than town, building a silent case without alerting the person so that they do not identify their scummy behavior and you can see how they naturally react without having super suspicion, making someone feel pressured, actually making someone feel

less

pressured, subtle breadcrumbing . . . the list goes on and on.

However, this is not any one of those cases, well maybe one. I thought it was obvious what I was FOSing but I guess I'll explain. Havingfitz was completely exaggerating a preposterous idea, and the fact that it was simply a FOS rather than a vote does little to alleviate my concerns.

I was a little concerned at the buddying between Rayfrost and Panacea, but I guess they're just friends. Which reminds me:
@Panacea: do you think you are less likely to lynch RayFrost than another player ignoring all interactions that have happened in this game?
@RayFrost: do you think you are less likely to lynch Panacea than another player ignoring all interactions that have happened in this game?

@Rayfrost, don't forget about alts and reading experience, and different posting frequencies per game.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Sorry guys but first and foremost I am responding to a prod, but I have and will be over the next 2 days busy with university starting again and my commitment to the frisbee club and other important societies there I will not be active but I shall try and do some reading tonight and report back asap!

You did not foresee these conflicts when you joined up?

FoS Independent John

for coordinated lurking.

[/quote]

CAUTION: I'm writing this post when I'm really tired. If there are gaping wholes in logic or in words, please forgive. I will re post this post editted tomorrow if it comes out incoherent.

Havingfitz idea is that Independent John had "coordinated lurking." Here are several reasons why this idea makes little sense:
1)It's only

two

days. Not even a noticable absence, really, yet havingfitz plays it up a lot here.
2) What would he be coordinating lurking

from?

It's not like the deadline is coming in two days or we pressured him for a claim right now. Makes no sense.
3) The idea of coordinating lurking is pretty popesterious, and implies that we all should keep in mind all possible time-conflicting things before starting the game.
4) Doesn't coordinated imply you were working with someone else? Maybe htat he
5) Lurking for two days with a real excuse isn't even scummy to begin with.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Okay, so I read this game, thought about several posts I was going to make, and I thought I had made them. Sorry for the recent inactivity!

[BridgesAndBaloons]

He's made three posts in the game...I don't recall what his first two were...I doubt they were much...but his third post was to explain his further lack of posting. Why are you defending him?

Wow, that is true. I totally didn't realize he had posted so little, my bad. Consider this an unFOS.

5) Lurking for two days with a real excuse isn't even scummy to begin with.

No. But he's at eight days now.

Good point, again, I hadn't taken the time to look at the lurker in detail before my FOS and in retrospect that was foolish.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

@ Bridges: I don't think I ever addressed this, but it's been bothering me. When Acosmist had mentioned meta-ing me, you promptly asked him what were his conclusions. It's odd to me that you never did so yourself, or offered your own.

There's actually several reasons I asked Acosmist for his analysis:
1) so he could have a stated opinion that would be harder to go back on (in case he was scum and you became an appetizing wagon or anti-wagon).
2) to possibly help me and everyone understand Panacea's play more.
3) to get a read on Acosmist later*

*I actually intend to do a light meta of you myself later on. If I find ways that my meta analysis does not add up with Acosmist, I've got a reason to suspect Acosmist now. If I had just done the meta for the first place, I'd have no one to compare to.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Yeah this game is ridiculously stacked with experience.


Eventually all of our random votes can be analyzed. For instance, who hopped on the Panacea wagon after I did? Who jumped off and when? Why? It seems paradoxical to me that random votes ultimately can create meaning, but they do. The more we discuss suspicions and ideas, the more reactions you can look at. It's possible to have a very informed Day 1 lynch based simply off of analyzing the exchanges around random wagons that then form real wagons and reading those wagons too... This is why it's possible to lynch scum Day 1, although difficult.

Then Day 2, imagine if we made no posts on day 1 and just did a random lynch... We would have very little to go off and would start on Day 1 again, probably with 2 less townies. However, but having a wealth of information on Day 1 we can reflect on that with the probably 2 confirmed (scum or innocent) players and read previous actions more clearly.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

My thoughts on Acosmist:

He sort of stood back on the Panacea debate, not really commenting on the wagon, just observing. Then he did a meta, declared his read "pro-town."

However, you cannot say my tells have been exaggerated to the point of hilarity, as I have yet to reveal my tells.

I wanted to draw attention to this. FYI, I don't count that as a point in your favor.

This makes me think he's pro-town.

Rayfrost I thought you can only be in one game at a time, aren't you in game 909 also?

It bothers me that this is the one post you chose to make today.

Nice lurker hunting.

Overall... Seems more likely to be pro-town. Do not see myself voting for him today.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

My Thoughts on Lawls:

4. Like to play laid back and just observe the game

Vote Panacea

Lawls, why did you vote Panacea at that particular moment?

Overall Lawls has been playing true to the play style "observe the game" he described early on. He has provided pretty much no content (other than one big post with his thoughts on all the players) to the game and definitely has lurked through.

Lawls, are you waiting for something? When do you think you will become more active? Or will you stay this passive the whole game? Yes you have made votes, but not of them very strong.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Meta is only effective when the person you're meta'ing isn't aware of it.

This is

the

most important lesson of meta. Even more important than knowing how to effectively meta, or how to apply metas to current games is knowing when to disregard it. I can't state this (for the few newbs in this game) enough: if someone becomes aware of their meta, they can't use it.

For instance, Rayfrost recently mentioned how Panacea is overly careful as town as if she might get a modkill. If the

opposite

was true like other people, I wouldn't be surprised to see her starting make purposeful spelling errors to look like her town meta. Get it? Remember this is assuming her meta is opposite simply for the sake of illustrating my point.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

This makes me think he's pro-town.

I confess that I can't see why that improved my townie cred; explain.

The manner in which you said that me not revealing my reasons was scummy seemed pro-town to me. It didn't seem like you were planting suspicion on someone just to do so, it felt like you really genuinely were looking at who could be scum, and saw this as a possible reason to think I'm scummy. A lot of times withholding reasons is seen as scummy (which I disagree with, but whatever) and I'm used to getting flack from it. However, I have found a lot of success in using the tactics I do.

BaB, who's scum?

Still working on that one. Let me get back to you.

But while you're on the phone... I'm curious about your vote on Rayfrost. You said earlier that you don't like reaction hunting early game (i have no idea why not, since reactions to early wagons really are the only way to find scum) so you aren't reaction hunting. You have genuine reasons to suspect Rayfrost. This really isn't a question, I guess.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Did you understand my contract bridge point?

Not really, but to be honest, this is strategy-talk, and you're not going to convince me that my strategies (of sometimes withholding reasons) don't help me find scum.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

@ Bridges: I'll start making spelling errors to match my Town meta? Lol, you DID meta me, yes? I'm a very proud English major, and I daresay I don't submit a remarkable quantity of spelling errors, whatever my alignment.

That was just an example of a possible meta and wasn't intended to be taken literally. I still haven't meta'd you and I can't determine exactly what it is yet. Also, very interesting that you consider English Major = no spelling errors. I know that math teachers make just as many, if not more, careless errors, than other people.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

@RayFrost and Panacea answering the question about LYLO directed at Lawls:

You realize you're telling the scum exactly who not to nightkill.

Votecount
Lawls - 4 (Elementary Fermion, Cojin, Acosmist, havingfitz)
Acosmist - 1 (Lawls)
Cojin - 1 (RayFrost)

Not Voting - 2 (Panacea, Nachomamma8)

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch

[BridgesAndBaloons]

I dislike the disclaimer in the first part of this, especially considering he didn't keep the promise

That was actually him failing to quote

me

. The reason I didn't repost it was because I thought it came out coherent. However most of my post became moot when I realized how much IndependentJohn had been (and was still) lurking.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

I find cojin slightly scummier since his attack on lawls was opportunistic (lawls has been a focus), and I have played with both of them as town with lawls actually being more pro-town this game and cojin being less pro-town.

This is just a post for me to clarify the game.

Cojin and Lawls have both been lurking . . . and RayFrost considers Cojin scummier of the two.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

BaB isn't posting enough for me to get a read on him.

Agreed. Why hasn't anyone attacked

me

for lurking?

Top two suspects are BaB and RayFrost.

^This is an interesting sentence.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

So. . . despite Acosmist's research regarding Panacea's chatty nature, I still find it highly suspicious. Feeling guilty? Why not bury the board with loads and loads of nothing. Good luck to the town finding a kernel of evidence among the chaff. Same goes for RayFrost. I am sure it is just a playing "style" or some such, but it is suspicios. In fact, I would not be surprised if these "styles" are cultivated for exactly that reason, and after many games, when the suspicious activity has been used for innocent goles and guilty ones alike, people wouldn't be so sure.

But, as this is my first game on MafiaScum (hello you two other MS n00bs in this "newbie game"), I find the overwhelming posting of feeble-at-best theories to be, well, scummy.

Elementary Fermion:

were you referring to anyone in particular in the previous sentence about theories?

However, in an attempt not to extend this day even further, I am not going to change my vote. I voted once with firm conviction and I am standing by it. I am not going to be a 2d or 3d vote on someone and ignite a marathon of "EF is jumping on bandwagons defend yoruself scummy &c."

Conclusion, lots of unnecessary posts looks suspicious to me, and when there has been so little action so far, most posts are unnecessary.

^Actually this post turned out to have very little content.

So, since demanding questions of others is where it's at:
1.) Cojin - how does it feel to be at L-2 (assuming that I am correct)?
2.) havingafitz - if Cojin is indeed the second vote on Lawls, and Acosmist the third, do you still view Cojin and Lawls with the same suspicion? Remember:

You (Lawls) are staying involved at a low level and not contributing much. You have made one post with a lot of content of debatable value and very very little else. I would not bet on you and Cojin both being scum but I do think at least one of you are.

Please explain why or why not your suspicions change.

yay some questions... maybe now he'll follow up with some opinions?

Can everyone give their top two suspects...especially those who haven't got a vote out yet? It's obvious for a few of you (ie those who have voted) but for others not so much.

My top choice is still Lawls, which is why I still have my vote on him. I random-voted for him, and the ensuing discussion, mostly by Acosmist and RayFrost, has persuaded me to keep it.

As for my second choice, it is a tie between. . . Acosmist and RayFrost. The sudden hostility is. . . odd. You were both doing what you were doing, and then doing it with anger. Actually, I would go with RayFrost as Acosmist has been constantly scumhunting and RayFrost as started providing gems like:

So... town reads is beneficial.

Town hunting is as useful as scumhunting.

So yeah.

You saying it isn't finding scum would be an inaccurate statement.

This is I feel not at all an accurate representation of what Acosmist was saying, though he defended himself well--making any attempt for me to do so redundant. But, the misdirection combined with the sudden attitude shift is setting off alarms for me.

Yay, some oppinions! Albeit, entirely unrelated to his questions.


So... EF: Has posted very little content, has expressed that day 1 is kind of useless, did not respond to my post about why day 1 was not useless. Random voted for lawls and is keeping it based on others' arguments of his lurkerhood. Has mentioned other people but never me.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Why is Nacho's sentence above interesting? How about answering my question on suspects?

EF is probably the next in lurkishness to Lawls and Cojin.

Where did Pan go? Someone check Ray's basement.

'
hahaha.


I do quadruple posts rather than super long posts, as I personally feel that they are more palatable. It helps make posts understandable when each post has a specific focus.

Nacho's sentence is interesting because he suspected two people, Rayfrost and Me, who I don't remember him voicing suspicion on before. We're also two people that little suspicion has been cast on

in

-thread.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Regarding Elementary Fermion: he's lurking, to be sure. Do people see that lurking as scummy or just as a bad habit to be discouraged with pressure? I want thoughts on paper about this.

He's another pretty bad lurker, and while it does appear mostly habit, I get a slight sense that he doesn't care who is lynched... more so than disinterested town would feel. So yeah, lurker leaning-anti town.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

How about answering my question on suspects?

<crickets>

?

EF, Cojin.

Also Rayfrost maybe.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Lawls:

answer this

Lawls, are you waiting for something? When do you think you will become more active? Or will you stay this passive the whole game? Yes you have made votes, but not of them very [strongly].

[BridgesAndBaloons]

@havingfitz, mostly lurking. To be honest I do not have a very strong grapple of this game, I'll be honest. However, I'm basing it on HOW they lurked and what was in their posts. You'll notice I'm not voting for Lawls (although my ideas my change depending on his response to the above question). I will not say why I'm not voting Lawls as it might tell him how to respond to my question to appease me.


Also, I have ran out of time for the day. I misplanned and thought I had more time to go over this game. Will be makign my deadline vote soon.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

EEBWOP: GAHHHHHHHHH I MISREAD THE DEADLINE


Okay f*** I have another deadlined game and now I don't have time left for that...

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Lawls:

answer this

Lawls, are you waiting for something? When do you think you will become more active? Or will you stay this passive the whole game? Yes you have made votes, but not of them very [strongly].

iirc I already answered that question, so you can go back and look for it. Sorry for the inactivity guys had a very busy weekend.

I have not found that after perusing through your posts. Please answer it again.

IC Tip

If someone asks you a question that you have already answered, rather than saying you have answered the questioned already, either link directly to the answer you gave, or give the same answer again and explain that you already gave it before. This helps for clarity when people reread the game, they don't want to have to go backwards looking for an answer.

Votecount
Lawls - 3 (Elementary Fermion, Cojin, Acosmist)
Cojin - 2 (RayFrost, havingfitz)
Acosmist - 1 (Lawls)

Not Voting - 3 (Panacea, Nachomamma8, BridgesAndBaloons)

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch

[BridgesAndBaloons]

No I'm not waiting for something.

Could you elaborate on this?

[BridgesAndBaloons]

*The (very slightly) occasional IC tip that actually comes through is as profound as "do not self-hammer" and "link to your previous posts if necessary."

While both of those seem really trivial, following them is really important to be an adequate player. You'll find that most of the learning will happen AFTER the game. Once all roles are revealed we discuss what moves scum made, why they made them, what bad moves town made, what they should have done instead, what good moves town made, etc. So, stick around until after the game to get the real learning from a newbie game. Plus, the experience itself with people who know how mafiascum works helps.

Please, for the love of God, explain to me in clear and concise terms how three weeks of “lurking,” “scumdar,” and “answer me” work. Show me a positive end result, and I will be receptive to the concepts so employed.

As I explained earlier, no matter what happens day 1, as long as content is generated, it helps us find scum the NEXT day. Say we lynch a lurker today and they come up scum. We can see if anyone was trying to avoid the lynch or if anyone attacked them in a way that seemed like bussing.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Oh, and happy scumday, Bridges!!

Thanks!

Unvote, Vote: Elementary Fermion

vote: nacho

MORE to come later including an explanation of my vote. Still not entirely caught up to thread, life is busy but spring break starts Friday and I will have lots of time then.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

posting in all my games:
unexpected busyness.