Pick Your Power II - Looks like the wine is gone (SCUM WIN)

[Fate]

"Wow, now I agree with you! Please don't use this slip against me later."

Sorry. You played an excellent game otherwise.


THE HEROIC MEMBERS OF THE TOWN
---------------------------------
GOVERNER Ellibereth
EXPLOSIVE Fate
NEIGHOR Wolframhart
VANILLA Faraday
VENGEFUL Jack

THE OUTCASTS
---------------------------------
VANILLA Stranger
VANILLA Fifi
VANILLA Hoopla
VANILLA Devotress
VANILLA Tony Montana

TRUE IDENTITIES REVEALED?
---------------------------------
EVILVIG Stranger
GOONIE Fifi
GOONIE Hoopla
GOONIE Devotress/TonyMontana

Everyone's claimed. All the scum have slipped (let's kill one of Devo/TM if we're not in lylo tommorow), and it is time to move forward!

If Jack is scumvig at this point, I'll just roll over and self-vote.

[Fate]

I'm so lost right now ><

You're a member of town, we all need to vote together now.

My current theory:
SC: Vig
Fifi: Vanilla(Bomb)

Their fakeclaims:
SC: Vanilla(Bomb)
Fifi: Vanilla (Vig)

It is one of them, and we have two chances to hit the vig.

[Fate]

Let's vote then Jack. Like you say if I'm "bussing" my scumbomb partner it proves me as the scumvig.

And if you're the scumvig than you deserve a scummy as well as fifi and SC for Scum MVPs...

If we hit the vig today and scum tomorrow (aka SC and Fifi) we'll have enough numbers on our side to afford a Hoopla/TM mislynch.

[Fate]

Tell me when the other voice in your head kicks in Fate, so we can move on to the next theory. Because it's just guesswork to lynch SC. Fifi is the obvious lynch today - she slipped up. You caught him.

It's highly likely he is scum, and a decent chance he is vig. So even if he isn't vig, we get another shot the next day, as a scum lynch now doesn't lose the game for us. I'm convinced you're town now Fate, despite your erratic play today. But please at least be reasonable.

I'm going to work on a logical case now that we have all the information available to the town. We can probably break this game.

More scum translation for the rest of town: FIFI SLIPPED NOT SC DONT LYNCH OUR VIG PLEASE.

You should've been convinced I was town a long time ago. Yet you played the scum safecard, "hmm I don't understand what Fate is trying to pull here" just in case a Fate mislynch was possible.

Town, please refer to my list above and take huge handfuls of salt when reading anyone not on the Town list.

[Fate]

Let's say we do lynch Fifi and hit scum, or vig, and go on to tomorrow, what is the opinion of the town on who i should neighborize?

Neighborize me with someone, and this time don't tell anyone! I wanted Faraday to be my secret town buddy

I think the list above should give you a good idea wink:

[Fate]

*waits for Jack/Fifi team to quickhammer*

When pigs fly!

I agree Tony is more likely uninterested Vanilla at this point (or busy, his signup was filled and he still hasn't posted the game he's modding yet).

[Fate]

Fate (13,4) - Bomb
Jack (7,2) -Vengeful Lynchee
StrangerCoug (3,1) -Vanilla for Bomb
The1fifi (3,7) -Vanilla for vig
wolframnhart (3,7)-Neighbor
Devotress (8,3)- Vanilla for Rolecop
Ellibereth (1,2) -Governor
Hoopla (1,1)- Vanilla for Universal Backup
TonyMontana (1,1)- Vanilla for err..Bomb
Faraday (6,4) - Vanilla for Neighbor (what a coincidence!)

[Fate]

It doesn't. They are literally right next to eachother, so the order they picked their roles in doesn't matter it seems. SC could be realclaiming and fifi could be vanilla.

BUT, Hoopla is proposing this line of thinking, and she isn't on my town list so her arguments get anti-points. AND we have two chances to lynch the vig, so hell, if SC isn't it we can go for Fifi tommorow.

Maybe fifiscum figured if we lynch SC as scumvig, he can say "look the vig was above me!"

That's really all I got. Plus SC voted fifi first (iirc)

[Fate]

Yeah he SC does vote fifi first, after "not seeing the case on Fate" but he fails to mention Jack completely. Trying to bus fifi would be a pretty good move at this point, especially with him coming under heavy fire by Jack and myself.

Plus Socrates told us SC was the vig Your WIFOM is coming back to hurt you!

[Fate]

Hey look who showed up. Why didn't you self-hammer? Oh yeah, because you're the vig.

But, for research purposes, now that you're answering questions:

Why did you claim vanilla going for bomb? Jack pointed this out yesterday: That let scum know exactly where it was (Jack or myself) and let them shoot freely. What town motivation could you have had?

[Fate]

EBWOP: Why did you claim early yesterday* and not today which is when we were supposed to massclaim.

[Fate]

EBWOP: Why did you claim early yesterday* and not today which is when we were supposed to massclaim.

Yh, it makes no sense SC.

WHAT THE-

Wait. Stop.

I forgot I'm ignoring your posts.

Unless you want to come up with a plausible reason as to why you would vote Devotress. (This should be good)

[Fate]

End the day? Wolf get that action in!

[Fate]

We'll talk about tomorrow, HAMMER SC NAO.

[Fate]

Oh shi-

I have another to add to my list of fears! QUICK HAMMER ELLIE HES AT L-1!!

I ALSO want to point out that Hoopla hasn't even voted Fifi despite acknowledging his huge slip.

[Fate]

SC- (Fate, Jack, Faraday, Wolf) [L-2]

You're right. WHO IS THE TOWNIE THAT IS MISSING?

TONY/DEVOTRESS WHICH ONE OF YOU WANTS TOWNIE POINTS!?

[Fate]

Vote: StrangerCoug

Okay, you guys better be right about him being the vig. If SC is just regular scum, I'm calling Fate-vig.

LULZ TOO LATE, TOWN SPOT RESERVED FOR TM

[Fate]

Ok, guarantee me that scum won't sacr-OH SHI ALMOST SLIPPED

[Fate]

You guys are killing Ellie tonight, right? It's too late to change actions right Spyrex?

[Fate]

What math supports that Hoopla? What if he is vengeful?

[Fate]

Finally I have a legitimate reason to not look at your posts now!

Why did you vote after someone got hammered, also? >_>!?

AND WHY WAS IT SOMEONE BESIDES FIFI!?

Hammer of Justice, HoJ: Hoopla

Just in case there was any doubt.

[Fate]

Actually, *skims over the numbers*

Also, did you just assume you and Faraday would be NK'd?

O_o? What in the hell scum team doesn't kill da Govenah?

[Fate]

Wow, major

fos: Ellibereth

.

wolf, is tony scum? y/n?
if tony is scum, is it possible for hoopla to be scum?
on a scale of 1-10

how scummy is ckd looking at the moment?

This is hilarious.

*popcorn*

"Major FOS on the person that hammered before I did!"

[Fate]

What do you think about CKD? That hardcore lurker hasn't posted yet today!

[Fate]

Yeah, Fate is town guys. That guarentees Jack scum.

(I thought scum wouldn't leave Jack alone by himself in a group D1 because they were afraid of your omniscient numbers theory)

[Fate]

ITT: We wait for Spyrex.

*waves*

[Fate]

Jack fooled me completely. Faraday fooled me completely.

GG.

FARADAY WHY DID YOU TALK TO PORKENS AFTER YOU KILLED HIM!

Fifi was begging for a lynch.

Better sooner than later, imo, because I would've lost with a Faraday 3p endgame.

[Fate]

So lynching Jack and telling him to kill fifi on death would've been the past play...
And the only reason they knew where the bomb was because they believed in my WIFOM in the signup thread, not because fifi was a vanilla going for the bomb -_-'

[Fate]

I thing my biggest screw up was that after I saw Jack's claim, I said "yeah let's lynch Jack and have him vengeful the next likely if he's town."

Then Hoopla resisted that idea. Later in the day I realized Hoopla was very much scum, but I didn't go back to my original plan because I had tunneled on SC at that point, and couldn't consider a Jack/Fifi scumteam.

[Fate]

Ohh yea and Fate pretending to be Porkens is the best thing I've ever seen ever, btw.

You know what would have been EVEN BETTER?

If I had pretended to be his scumbuddy and outed two scum.

Would've been epic.

[Fate]

There's a chance of Jack vig, you've suddenly taken out of the equation which I can't work out - so if you go for SC and it's a Jack/Fifi scumteam, it's an automatic loss.

I just reread this.

Damn.
You.

[Fate]

Contrary to what seems to be being said, scum didn't win this as convincingly as everyone thought, and the town were probably one smart lynch away from breaking the game wide open, which made it incredibly tense on the last day. My dwindling town stock actually worked to the teams' advantage in the fact that a soft defense on StrangerCoug reaffirmed Fate he must be scum, which was very rewarding to me, seeing such an obvious tactic work so fluently.

Meh, if I had somehow come to my sense and lynched Jack based on numbers, likely hood, it would have been something like this imo:

Lynch Jack->
NK Wolf/Ellie

5 (TM, Devo, Me, Wolf/Ellie, SC) Lynch Fifi
VK Me(unless I was smart enough to not be on the lynch), NK Ellie.

Devo/TM/SC vs. Hoopla/Faraday -> Lynch Hoopla (ideally),
NK ????

So unless I saw vengeful kill coming and survived until endgame (which would have been worse, actually because of my link with Far) It would have been a lesser than stellar endgame team vs. Faraday, who looked town to a lot of people.

Same result? More days? Again, I'm a bit disappointed in myself it didn't go this far, but the town's margin for errors was so thin.

[Fate]

Our scum-QT had almost 600 posts of hardcore planning. I'm happy to post it if my scumbuddies want it revealed.

I'd really like to see it, if only to fully appreciate the genius that we were up against.

This is all I have to offer: http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/spQEsffKE3HA

I don't need Faraday's permission because he's lying scum

[Fate]

@Faraday: That gambit would've worked a lot better if I had thought of it first. I posted it in, then PM'd Spyrex asking if I could use another name, THEN posted as Porkens. -_-'

@Rest: I want to give out some critique and welcome all to do the same. I think one of the points of post-game is to help improve. Not trying for any personal attacks here so please don't take them that way.

Things that contributed to towns loss:

Fate: Didn't pick vig didn't pick vig, etc. That would've nullified the scum strategy, and made my WIFOM pick of bomb solid when I refused to claim. Also letting scum (Jack+Hoopla) guide me toward SC with little resistance after I first proposed Jack be lynched. Also failing to check the QT after Wolf claimed to see that Faraday didn't mention Jack's name even once as a possibility (I'd like to think I would've seen that). Lynching Bouncy was pretty bad too, BUT:

Bouncy: A role investigation on Jack would've ended it, on Socrates it would have let us know for sure he wasn't the vig, etc. Please, please don't do random.org next time.

Pom: Activity isn't really something you can just "improve on" it is a matter of circumstance. I'm not saying you could've done anything about it, but this is a list of things that contributed to town's loss. If you weren't as scummy then Socrates fake guilty would've looked worse.

Devotress+TM: Townies that we needed on the last day. If you were more protown my Town list would've had you two instead of Jack+Far on it. (nah Far would've still been on it ;P) Looking back TM's L-1 vote with "not like I'm going to be able to reverse it now" was pretty bad. If you saw it from a different angle your input would've been nice.

Ellie: You're in the same boat as me. We got worked over pretty bad, but at least we can say we nailed Hoopla in the end (but we failed to adjust our play based on that read. I did anyway).

RayFrost: Stop having your name show up on random.org!

CKD: You were in this game? (See Pom)

SC: A victim of circumstance. With better posts you could've shone light on the Jack/Fifi team (which was my original 50% shot theory), but Jack tore apart your posts and I followed on to his reasoning. If you give scum a good target it is easy for them to look town.

That's all I can think of for right now. Kudos to DP for claiming before he was killed, we might've been able to piece it together if Devo+SC didn't act scummy.

@Spyrex:
The game was a lot of fun, thanks for modding. I loved it especially since it was face paced, nightless, and interesting. I neglected a lot of my other games to post in this one.

Suggestion: It has been said before, but scum being able to talk before the draft was HUGE. To put it from a different perspective:
What if there was a large theme game in which scum could talk and form a strategy and choose what PR roles they got to have?
And then conversely Town had no discussion and got random PRs?

But other than that, /pre-in for next!

[Fate]

)

Needless to say PLEASE LOOK HERE BEFORE YOU POST.

I screwed it up and RC not SC got killed.

"Oh"

I just read this. I mean, obviously my first reaction is anger. Then I feel as if, 'well people are human.'

Then I just feel sad. Like we lost the game on a fluke

[Fate]

Outcome? Debatable.

The major turning points involved SC:

1. SC acted scummy
2. Faraday proposes Fifi/SC team and I buy it.

I'd like to think RC would've acted that way. As it was mentioned in your QT, SC was kept alive as buffer between Jack and fifi. If SC wasn't there it would be an easy decision to lynch Jack and have him vig Fifi.

I still think we would've hunted the vig because two townies had died in a row. Even Hoopla suggested that D3 we "ask the vig to claim so we can direct their kill." Then you guys would've tried the fifi claiming guilty gambit thing, and then we could've gone from there.

Modslip or not, you guys deserved this win. I'll be the first to admit *hats off*

[Fate]

Because things like cop, watcher, tracker, doctor, weak doctor etc. are all mostly useless for scum. Then watering down the vig to X-shot or removing things like governor/vengeful. Would that justify keeping the pre-draft planning? Because I think that is one of the best parts of the game.

Definitely. The problem was, as I said earlier, this game was basically "let scum choose their PR while town gets a random assortment" If Ellie hadn't picked up Governor there would've been literally nothing town could have done except lynch scum correctly each day they could.

If the roles available offer less "combo" potential for scum, and the "random PRs" the town receives are stronger, then it would equal out.

[Fate]

Giving the town a few masons is pretty powerful. They could come up with all sorts of gambits (if I had been neighbor'd with someone else I was considering telling them to claim bomb in order for me to draw the NK), etc.

I think just toning down the synergy of the scum roles would make it less swingy. Though having masons would be a lot funner, admittedly, for town gambit strategies.

Roles that need to go:
Vengeful, Governor.

Both of these are difficult to work around. Scum can swap roles around (like with Jack claiming vengeful when fifi was the one), and the only reason they couldn't swap it further was because DocPotter had gone for it above him. Both these roles allow situations in which scum can claim scum, and still win, because there is nothing town can do. Defeats the spirit of mafia, imo.

[Fate]

Bodyguard is a bit underrated, imo. If I had chosen that, and guarded RayFrost after he was outed, it would have been the equivalent of me "forcing" my bomb on scum.

Unless I'm mistaken and empowerer goes through a bodyguard.

Other than that it looks like you put a lot of time into this list. Maybe you should co-mod with Spyrex! (Just so I don't have to go up against your fearsome tactics again >_>)

[Fate]

I was shocked, shocked, when Fate bought Hoopla's defense of Jack. We lose if jack isn't the vig and doesn't hit the vig? That was essentially the case anyway!

And the fact that it was a complete 180 from Hoopla's "Single numbers have a 55% chance of being scum) theory. She got me good, I'll admit.

[Fate]

I agree with Hoopla on the multiple scum teams. Mainly because in an Open game I'm in, which was 3 Masons/5 Townies/2Scum/2Werewolves

We lynched correctly D1 AND D2. (I died N1), but town mislynched on D3 and now it is 2/1/1, and town has to pray for a cross kill to win. Lame...

It adds an interesting dynamic to the game to try out, but it isn't something that should be very popular or widespread. (IIRC the last game had 2 groups and a SK, whoa.)