Pick Your Power II - Looks like the wine is gone (SCUM WIN)

[SpyreX]

Its an open setup. He could hand me that list and I could turn around and use it and he could play.

That said, I'll definitely think about it. While I love JOATS (and I love me some JOATS and even watned a PYP based around JOATS) I'm not sure I like them in this setup. 2-shot vig works, I'm not sure what I think about weak doctor though.

[Hoopla]

The reason for the JOAT was an additional cop/vig role so the town has some power against a scum team claiming the cop/vig again. Why don't you like them for PYP?

[SpyreX]

Its more a personal taste than any balance issues - just something about multiple one-shots in this setup just seems off.

[Socrates]

I was shocked, shocked, when Fate bought Hoopla's defense of Jack. We lose if jack isn't the vig and doesn't hit the vig? That was essentially the case anyway!

My two cents on setup:

The empowerer is too powerful. At least with this set of roles. By itself, the role obsoletes the bulletproof, doc, roleblocker (for pro-town use), and (I think) the bodyguard. When I asked fate why the hell would anyone take a role as useless as the doc, I was dead serious. People were surprised that nobody took any of those roles, but why would they? With the empowerer, they were useless roles.

I would either take out the empowerer, or take out at least a few of the roles that it obsoletes and replace them with something that isn't.

[Jack]

That's true. Without the empowerer and fate's breadcrumb, we wouldn't have taken a shot at the top 5 like we did. Then the town could have at least used the tracker and watcher.

I think it's easy to overcorrect a setup after a swingy game. It reminds me of 101 mph mafia, where the mod corrected for an easy scum win in the 100 mph game by giving the town a cop, backup cop, doctor, and nurse (in a mini).

[Fate]

I was shocked, shocked, when Fate bought Hoopla's defense of Jack. We lose if jack isn't the vig and doesn't hit the vig? That was essentially the case anyway!

And the fact that it was a complete 180 from Hoopla's "Single numbers have a 55% chance of being scum) theory. She got me good, I'll admit.

[SpyreX]

I think, really, for the empowerer to work (and I do love that role) there needs to be more scum-sided roles (framer, driver, etc) so that there is a legitimate reason for town to utilize it.

[Hoopla]

I think, really, for the empowerer to work (and I do love that role) there needs to be more scum-sided roles (framer, driver, etc) so that there is a legitimate reason for town to utilize it.

I don't understand this point. How does this minimise the influence of the empowerer?

I think there needs to be one or two powerful roles that favour scum-use over town-use. The empowerer is still thwarted by the bomb, but maybe like the vig, an X-shot empowerer could be a solution.

Like Jack said, I think it can be easy to go too far the other way, overcorrecting a set-up. As scum, I'd be scared of a town with a bomb/BP/cop combination without an empowerer.

[Hoopla]

Again, I think this is town error in not recognising a powerful scum role and taking it themselves, rather than a balancing issue. Cop is a detrimental role to scum if we allowed it to get into town hands. Being alive for ~3 days is enough to rip the game wide open - and although we didn't gain anything for scum-use by taking it, we felt we needed to stop this problem by taking it before town could hurt us with it.

I think the empowerer works on similar grounds. Sensible town-play stops the value of the empowerer. Townies from 6th-11th should consider going for it, to try and get it, or at least narrow down where it is. Or conversely, the town should ask the empowerer to claim D1 to work out if it is town or scum. There are plenty of ways the town has to minimise the influence of this role.

[DocPotter]

Ultimately I'd like to see the vig down played. Either limited shots, or untargatables that cost the vig something.

Thereare other ideas that I have, but they might be abit on the bastard side of things.

For example, hidden roles based on draft order. Picks '5' and '9' are neighbours with a 1 shot vig on a target they agree on, as well as what ever they draft.

[SpyreX]

Ehh, no hidden.

I guess I meant more "town reasons to have an empowerer aside from stopping the scum from having it"

Which, I think, was part of why I liked 2 scumgroups - at that point most abilities benefit scum and town versus just stopping the other from having them.

[Hoopla]

Yeah, that is really bastard imo. How is the town supposed to be able to figure that out? I think the set-up involves a decent amount of chance already - I don't think having pre-determined roles in specific draft spots improves the game.

I think having a 2-shot vig is the most efficient way of dealing with the vig problem. It can still be quite useful for scum, but won't completely blow the town away either.

What about a mason recruiter for a good town role? They get a 1-shot chance at trying to draft a town player as a mason. If the player is scum, the recruiter dies - if the player is town they become confirmed masons to each other. If scum drafts this role, it can't be used.

[Hoopla]

Ehh, no hidden.

I guess I meant more "town reasons to have an empowerer aside from stopping the scum from having it"

Which, I think, was part of why I liked 2 scumgroups - at that point most abilities benefit scum and town versus just stopping the other from having them.

Ew, multiple scum groups are gross. Don't do it.

[SpyreX]

PYP 1 was multiple, thank you very much.

I'm still toying with ideas for it, overall.

[Hoopla]

PYP 1 was multiple, thank you very much.

I'm still toying with ideas for it, overall.

Yeah, I know!

That's why I didn't play it.

[DocPotter]

As long as you say that the hidden ability is in the mix it wouldn't be that bad. That certain, un specified, draft picks will be neighbours.

Now Serial Killer would be a real bastard.

[Cobalt]

I liked the scum configuration of PYP I more than II. 3 per team plus the SK organically limits the power scum has without crippling them.
I don't like limiting roles. Maybe make the vig odd-night only.
Needs moar jailer, that role rules.

[StrangerCoug]

PYP 1 was multiple, thank you very much.

I'm still toying with ideas for it, overall.

Yeah, I know!

That's why I didn't play it.

I like multiball, though.

[SpyreX]

I'm curious hoop - what is it about 2 scumteams you dont like?

[Hoopla]

I liked the scum configuration of PYP I more than II. 3 per team plus the SK organically limits the power scum has without crippling them.
I don't like limiting roles. Maybe make the vig odd-night only.
Needs moar jailer, that role rules.

Odd-night vig is good. Probably better than two-shot - I approve.

~~

SpyreX, multiple scum groups aren't fun because there's a built-in balancing mechanism of cross-kills which are totally beyond town control. If no scum are killed at night, it's possible to lose without mislynching (or mislynching once or twice) which, although unlikely, sucks. Then going the other way, it's stupid to win if scum have killed each other for you without doing anything. Killing scum should the goal of the town. To me, it feels much more like a game of chance, but yet creates unnecessary complexity for town when you need to look for specific group tells, and need to juggle lynches.

Then, from a scum perspective, you have to alter your game to avoid frequent night-kills, which discourages flambouyent gambits that draw attention to yourself, and discourages scum from trying to appear too town. It's very rewarding putting in a lot of work as scum to filter your posts and make fabricated cases seem plausible if you get the result of looking town, and thinking 'yeah, I'm going to be hard to lynch'. There's less incentive to do this as scum, as you're trying to avoid two extremes (too townie, too scummy), when I think playing scum is about trying to fool the town into thinking you're one of them.

For me, one of the best things about being scum is the us vs. them thing going on. Town is trying to work out what you're doing, and you're trying to coerce the town to submit themselves to your hidden agenda. Multiple scumteams fucks this over, because there is so much that can go wrong. There is no way to predict what will happen, and makes attempt to lay long-term plans useless because the game is swingier.

Scum vs. town just feels like a purer game to me, which will on average produce a better quality game where you can say the best team won. As town in multiple scum group games, I feel like I have less control over the outcome as chance is more prominent. Plus having 3+ factions means that every player has a lower chance of winning overall. Why is having more losers better?

Say no to multiple scum groups.

[SpyreX]

Hell you could go all the way live and have odd AND even night vigs

Hoopla makes a pretty convincing case, fo sho.

[Hoopla]

Cobalt; what is your opinion on the new drafting system? is it better or worse letting the scum talk to strategize a plan?

[Cobalt]

I don't like the idea of not letting scum talk, because it's so critical to their character and nature, but letting scum plan out draft numbers is way strong, at least as good as daytalking, IMO.
Give out alignments, have people pick numbers, then allow 24-48 hours for scum to talk out role picks.

[Hoopla]

Do you think if the same drafting system was run again, scum would be under pressure to consider doubling up on an X number? Or do you think the town would use number theory more effectively to catch scum?

[Cobalt]

the wifom in that is too strong, and it depends heavily on the playerlist. I am inclined to think the scum would be willing to spread their numbers (not double up) for shots at more power instead of blending in.
On the other hand I might be scum in a future PYP game with this draft so take what I say with a grain of salt.