Mini 929: Whedonesque Mafia (Game Over)

[esuriospiritus]

Where's the rest of this case you supposedly have on me, then?

[Fate]

unvote: jeromus

I read his games in iso. He does indeed seem to have an affinity for exaggeration and hyperbole. I still think his wording was too harsh, but I can let it slide now that I have a better idea of how he words things.

You seem to have strawmanned together a very weak case on jeromus.

No duh on the "weak case" thing, though I disagree with throwing around the term "straw manning" so easily. It has a connotation of malignant intent.

Obviously anything this early is going to be weak, though, and I acknowledge that in my voting post. I'd rather have a vote on someone for a reason than be voting someone randomly, no matter how far I have to reach to justify that reason.

I do, however, refuse to keep a vote when I can no longer justify that reason, such as is the case now.

@Fate: You say you disagree with most (if not all) of the bandwagons that have happened thus far. Out of the people on the bandwagons you disagree with, who do you think is most likely to be scum? What wagon do you think is most likely to be solely town-motivated?

@Vaya: Out of everyone who has voted you, who do you think is the scummiest, and why?

@Seven: There's always something you can find to ask someone questions about, especially after the first couple of pages. Watching people play without yourself placing a vote or asking questions can be considered active lurking. Our game days are short, so waiting until two days have passed before jumping in is far from pro-town. Even if it is your playstyle to sit back and absorb everything for a while, you can't afford to do that in this game and we can't afford to let someone who intends to off the hook.

vote: Seven

/impress

[Fate]

Again, why?

If he thinks I'm scummy, he should build his own case on me instead of trying to get me to build it for him. Also, that he would resist giving any reasoning whatsoever for his vote so long makes me suspicious that maybe he didn't initially

have

any reasoning and just wanted an excuse to not answer my questions and thus take too many stances.

And your response to iam's legitimate question just insults my intelligence. Apparently it is a scumtell to vote someone and then ask them build a case against themselves, which the scum will then use against them, because the scum didn't even have a reason to vote them in the first place.

Brilliant! Why didn't I think of it before?

[jeromus]

Well - I'm with Esurio - I see no reason i would benefit the town.

[Fate]

Well - I'm with Esurio - I see no reason i would benefit the town.

That box you're in? There's stuff outside it too, you know.

[esuriospiritus]

Enlighten us, oh wise unconventional thinker.

[jeromus]

This box of wishing to be informed of any relevant information? Well fancy that. I feel like a right fool now!

[Fate]

Enlighten us, oh wise unconventional thinker.

If you can admit to it being unconventional, would you mean explaining once again how it is scummy?

[esuriospiritus]

...what? o_O You never adequately explained why any of my actions have been scummy in the first place, you just spewed some bullshit about defending people and hinted that you had not yet revealed your full case on me.

And by 'unconventional', I was referring to that box you were insinuating you were outside the bounds of. I'm pretty sure the box is called Logic.

[Fate]

You vote Jeromus. You the unvote him, agreeing your reasoning was weak, and say "I meta'd him and I'll believe that is his style."

Then you vote Seven:"I don't agree with his style." Seven then explains his style, but you do not meta him. Then You switch from your BW vote on Seven to me "I agree with Seven, asking me to make a case on myself is scummy", the one you were previously voting suggested.

Iam then asks you why what I said was scummy, and you provide an unsatisfactory answer that would require me to be a complete idiot.

There, rhyme and reason. I'm exhausted now. Now it is your turn.

[jeromus]

So...because she makes a Meta about me and not about someone else, along with her talking smack 'bout you, she's clearly scum!

Just...please, explain why that first point makes her more scummy than townie?

[Fate]

Inconsistencies in scumhunting is a strong scumtell. You simplifying my argument in order to refute it instead of countering it is noted.

[jeromus]

Fate, your expectation that someone make your points for you - Noted.

I simplified it and refuted it because I believed it to be foolish; Fate.

[jeromus]

BLAH! INCOMPLETE POST IS INCOMPLETE.

Walk me through the process of it being a scumtell, good sir!

[iamausername]

If he thinks I'm scummy, he should build his own case on me instead of trying to get me to build it for him.

Saying "he shouldn't do that" doesn't answer the question. Why is it scummy?

Also, that he would resist giving any reasoning whatsoever for his vote so long makes me suspicious that maybe he didn't initially have any reasoning and just wanted an excuse to not answer my questions and thus take too many stances.

Scumhunting doesn't work like that, sorry. Scum aren't going to jump out and reveal themselves by doing something as obviously stupid as saying "I have a case on you" when they actually don't. There's a reason why it's called scum

hunting

, not scumwaiting-around-until-they-give-themself-up.

Hooray, an opinion. Now, why is that scummy?

Social faux pas, answering a question with a question:

Why the hell isn't it?

Isn't this rather equivalent to what you're attacking Fate for in the first place? You can't explain why it's scummy, so you turn the question on me? Just like Fate 'can't' come up with a case on esurio, so he turns the question on her. Funny. I'll give you an answer anyway though.

Short version: unconventional =/= scummy.

Long version: Asking someone to try to make a case against themself could be very useful in determining their alignment, and therefore obviously has a clear pro-town benefit. A town player, asked to examine their own play and try to reason out what they could possibly have done to merit suspicion would approach the question from a very different perspective than a scum player, because the scum player knows the suspicion is justified, while the town player knows it is not.

It does not have any obvious pro-scum application that I can think of. Someone building a case against themself is never going to come up with something that will actually convince people to vote them, so the idea that scum would use this to make a townie get themselves lynched is patently absurd.

[Azhrei]

Fate, you responded, well... Exactly how I expected. I really dislike players like you. You play in way too many games at once (the only person I've ever seen handle that many games well was zwtchenwasser...), and play none of them well (I'll admit, I've read none of your other games, but take it as a playstyle meta). The worst bit is you think you play them well, and you don't hesitate to insult others about it. Actually, I lied, the worst bit is how you do it as both scum and town, but you can never tell which. And yet, it is inevitable that you get lynched pretty quick. If you're town, then it's a wasted lynch - really, not much comes out of it. If you're scum - well, I feel sorry for your buddies, but it still doesn't help me find them, 'cause they're smart enough to run away as soon as they see you playing like this. I just feel like its a waste of a day, but keeping you around is always unwise.. (lylo situation + player like you = fail)

Might I make a suggestion? You seem to be a reasonably intelligent person. Try playing less games. Maybe go back and play a newbie game or two. Slow down, and think about things. You'll probably find decidedly less D1 lynches, and decidedly less people disliking you. Of course, I'd say you're probably going to ignore all of this, insult me, call me scum, maaaaybe vote me, and then rage in general, claim something, and get lynched.

But I would like to be surprised...

----

To everyone else, here is my reasoning for belief that Fate is a necessary lynch, and possibly scum, all the way through:

(shtuff about his early absence)

Vote: Azhrei

Don't like his posts. He attacks farside for a random vote, and then, seemingly out of nowhere votes me to get me to post?

He just votes me me because he "Do(es)n't like my posts". He goes to a slight clarification by mentioning things I've done, slightly misrepresenting me, as I see it (perhaps point of view here on the terminology of 'random vote').

After another post responding to myself (not going to quote it here, it's rather large, and this post is getting big as it is, and I responded to it earlier) and a somewhat insulting post at Esurio's stuff up regarding votes, he just suddenly drops his entire aggression on me, in favour of attacking, well, half the players in this game.

The wagons on Seven, Vaya, and Pwnman are all based off people disagreeing with their playstyles. (Cautious, Lurking, and BW fearful respectively)

Fate does not approve.

Notice here how, again, he doesn't really explain

why

he disapproves, jsut states what and that he does in fact disapprove. This isn't amazingly scummy, just odd.

Out of the people on the bandwagons you disagree with, who do you think is most likely to be scum?

You.

Vote: esurio

This is about the point where my scumdar (scum radar, for jeromus, if he hasn't encountered the term as yet) started to go off. After being asked a reasonable question, he replies with an answer, however, no explanation as to why he came to this conclusion. The reasoning, really, really is the important part. The best part is when he asked Esurio to make a case for him.

"You're scum!"
"Why?"
"You tell me!"
"Oh, I think I'm scummy because *insert reassons here*"
"See! Even they think they're scummy, look at all of these reasons!"

I'll admit, this would be a stupid gambit to try and pull, but I could see Fate doing it. And it just doesn't fit a townie to try it. Well, not a person playing in the best interests of the town, anyways. He follows up the indignation towards this with:

*quotey*

Tell me why your Seven vote is any better than your Jeromus vote, and I'll consider it.

More and more this smacks of "I just don't have anything and I'm trying to get a bandwagon on you without any reason." It just seems, well, stupid play, to me, for both townie and scum.

(snip snip)

You're overreacting. The implication was that I would consider explaining my vote ES, not switch over to join her on you. Your unprovoked defense is noted, though.

ES is still a better wagon, everyone. If we're going to vote people for not voting, Azhrei is up there too.

I can't be bothered typing out the same thing again. So:

WHY?

Also, this, Fate, is where you're misrepresenting things afain. You've either not read the discussion on Seven at all, or you're deliberately misrepping it. People aren't voting Seven because of not voting, more because of his playstyle (which was somewhat poorly explained earlier, hence the voting on him), which involves keeping low for the start of the game to try to get an objective view on the game post-RVS and other silliness. Not because he wasn't voting - the not voting was merely a result of this playstyle, which is that which he was being voted for. If you'd care to notice, I've been playing differently to that.

For the next few posts he just quotes people and try to string together an argument of scumminess, which I find unconvincing at best, broken and illogical at worst. (Esurio is right, by your own logic, she isn't scum, so far as I can tell through the convolutedness).

From here, he seems to denigrate into petty insults and acting like he's better than those he disagrees with.

For his second last post, he does rally up a little, and at least give it a go, but he still don't seem to give an in depth reason as to why the things he's talking about make Esurio scum.

Gosh, I think that's about everything. In summary, I think that Fatye is either bad-town or bad-scum, and either way, a worthwhile lynch. THis is the most risk-free time to dispose of him, there's a halfway decent chance he's scum, and even if he isn't, he's too big a liability to keep on our hands. Now, I know there are people who disagree with that sort of playstyle, but unless they show me someone who they can show to have a better chance of being scum, I'm staying with Fate.

Which reminds me:

Vote:Fate

----

Prove me wrong Fate. Show me you're not one of those players. I just quickly scanned one of your games, and it doesn't seem consistent. Why are you doing it?

----

Now to wait for the inevitable criticisms, and possibly the pointing out of where I've screwed up and misread something. oh, and where is that pwnman fellow?

[Azhrei]

Oh, didn't even notice Iam's post, blargh. In short, I don't see quite the same oppurtunity for pro-town benefit as you seem to, and it honestly didn't seem like Fate was trying for that, it seemed more like laziness to me. I'd be interested to see your response to my overy large post.

Sorry for the double post + wall of text, everyone.

[TonyMontana]

"Are you familiar with Dungeons & Dragons?"
"Yeah. I've seen a few."

VoteCount 1.3

L-3

Fate

(esuriospiritus, Vaya, jeromus, Azhrei)

L-5

Seven

(iamausername, bv130)
L-5

Vaya

(farside22, pwnman)
L-6

esuriospiritus

(Fate)
L-6

iamausername

(Starbuck)
L-6

pwnman

(Wolframnhart)

Not voting: Seven

Deadline ≈ 6 days

[pwnman]

I'm gonna

unvote

.

Fate you have absolutely no reasoning(or very poor reasoning) on your accusations and votes. Convince me to not vote you. Otherwise...

[wolframnhart]

First, Azhriel I believe Fate did explain why he didn't approve of the Seven, Vaya, and Pwnman wagons in that same post you quoted, because they were based on those three's playstyle "(Cautious, Lurking, and BW fearful respectively)."

Second, Pwnman you have got to be kidding me. You come back and THAT is your post? No real info just another fluff post and a threat to vote the biggest bandwagon if they don't convince you? A player that has done really nothing so far?

[Seven]

Sev's amazing thoughts on Fate requesting someone to build a case against themselves and why it's a shite tactic!

The lame, obvious, kind of newbish answer is what you said here:

And your response to iam's legitimate question just insults my intelligence. Apparently it is a scumtell to vote someone and then ask them build a case against themselves, which the scum will then use against them, because the scum didn't even have a reason to vote them in the first place.

Brilliant! Why didn't I think of it before?

First of all, and I've said this to people before, just because you are aware that it is a scum tactic does not make you town. It makes you scum that knows what they're doing is scummy. Beyond what you said here though there are other reasons why it is not beneficial to town and to an extent even anti-town to do this.

A) The person will inevitably find mistakes that they have made, or feel they have made. Anyone without a god-complex will have this problem. There is always some self-doubt somewhere, and showing that to other players is deadly. You need to be confident as hell in this game, we've already had a talk about people who use disclaimers like "IMHO" and "I think" etc, it's the same idea.
B) The person will avoid talking about the mistakes everyone has already noticed, because they don't want to point anything out that will get them lynched, and by doing so will seem scummy.

There's really no benefit at all. If you can see one, go ahead and clarify. Until then: scummy.

Now for Fate's amazing case on Roslin!:

You vote Jeromus. You the unvote him, agreeing your reasoning was weak, and say "I meta'd him and I'll believe that is his style."

Then you vote Seven:"I don't agree with his style." Seven then explains his style, but you do not meta him.

I have one finished, newbie game, mate. NKed N1 to boot. Meta away!

Iam then asks you why what I said was scummy, and you provide an unsatisfactory answer that would require me to be a complete idiot.

Or a complete GENIUS for being scum who knows they are using a scum tactic, and having the marvelous disclaimer "If I were scum I would be too smart to do this!"

Please.

Isn't this rather equivalent to what you're attacking Fate for in the first place? You can't explain why it's scummy, so you turn the question on me? Just like Fate 'can't' come up with a case on esurio, so he turns the question on her. Funny. I'll give you an answer anyway though.

Yes, exactly. It's scummy. Thank you for proving my point.

As for your short answer, you are correct.

As for your long answer, I disagree. My long answer provided somewhere above.

And then we get to Azzie's 165. That first bit is bothering me. Blatantly claiming to know there is no scumtell in Fate's play (without bothering to meta, mind) and saying he will get lynched anyway. [disclaimer]I have lynched a player I was certain was town before[/disclaimer] but it was solely because I was certain we would get plenty of leads from the lynch. Az is even saying we won't get any info, just one less annoying player in the case of lylo. If we were talking about a lurker perhaps or someone who doesn't say anything, this wouldn't be so bad. But Fate is at least keeping discussion going, even though I disagree with him.

And by doing above, pretty much discredits the whole case he built. Is it playstyle or is it scumminess?

I still feel the same way I did about Fate, but Azzie's post is confusing.

Finally,

Pwnman you have got to be kidding me. You come back and THAT is your post? No real info just another fluff post and a threat to vote the biggest bandwagon if they don't convince you? A player that has done really nothing so far?

QFT.

[Seven]

And by doing above, pretty much discredits the whole case he built. Is it playstyle or is it scumminess?

The question is addressed to Az, about Fate. In case that was confusing.

[farside22]

I'm gonna

unvote

.

Fate you have absolutely no reasoning(or very poor reasoning) on your accusations and votes. Convince me to not vote you. Otherwise...

unvote:
vote: pwnman

Convince me otherwise.

[bv310]

Unvote

So much strange actions. Is it a full moon?

[esuriospiritus]

You vote Jeromus. You the unvote him, agreeing your reasoning was weak, and say "I meta'd him and I'll believe that is his style."

Then you vote Seven:"I don't agree with his style." Seven then explains his style, but you do not meta him. Then You switch from your BW vote on Seven to me "I agree with Seven, asking me to make a case on myself is scummy", the one you were previously voting suggested.

Iam then asks you why what I said was scummy, and you provide an unsatisfactory answer that would require me to be a complete idiot.

There, rhyme and reason. I'm exhausted now. Now it is your turn.

I have no qualms with your representation of my vote/unvote on Jeromus; it is pretty much accurate. You misunderstand or deliberately misrepresent my vote on Seven, though. I did not vote him because it was his style; I don't really care if sitting back and doing nothing is his style or not. It doesn't make it any more pro-town if he does it all the time. However, it is still early in the game and since he made a reply that was more engaging and thus satisfactory to me, I was willing to unvote him. If he decides to slink into the shadows and not scumhunt, I can always vote him again later, just as I would anyone who was not contributing if I didn't already have my vote somewhere better.

Your post where you asked me to make a case on myself seemed wrong to me, but I confess that it wasn't until Seven echoed my feelings on that post and its scumminess that I felt confident enough about my own reaction to it to vote based on that reaction. I apologize for not making that clear up front. Numerous other people have also echoed that sentiment since, so I feel further justified in my reaction to it, and really, it's not my fault that the first of many to agree that your action was scummy happened to be the person I had just unvoted. I could have waited and said I agreed with Azh, or whatever.

How exactly am I being "inconsistent"? Mind that frequently changing votes =! inconsistency in scumhunting, especially on day one when there are no flips to help provide a starting point in that scumhunting endeavor.

Why is it scummy?

...I can see

no possible

town motivation for asking someone to build a case on themselves. It just doesn't compute for a townie to ask that whatsoever. Therefore it follows in my mind that that action must be scum or neutral motivated.

You seem to insinuate that you do

not

find asking someone why they're scummy to be a scummy action. Why not? Do you think Fate is town, or are you just trying to play devil's advocate?

I'll have to get to the rest of this later. Going to work now. :/