Mini 929: Whedonesque Mafia (Game Over)

[esuriospiritus]

Care to elaborate?

[Fate]

I rather you try to think of a case against yourself right now.

This should be interesting.

[esuriospiritus]

Why would I do that? Regardless of alignment, it is not in

anyone's

best interests, town or scum, to build cases toward lynching themselves. o_O

[jeromus]

Fate - Please justify your suspicions and your vote on Esurio - I'll admit, i'm not the biggest fan of her playstyle; It might be because she criticised me, personally, but I see no obvious reason for your vote. Votes without justification serve little to no purpose. Now JUSTIFY, Sister!

[Fate]

Why would I do that? Regardless of alignment, it is not in

anyone's

best interests, town or scum, to build cases toward lynching themselves. o_O

Tell me why your Seven vote is any better than your Jeromus vote, and I'll consider it.

[Azhrei]

Hey, uh, Fate...

Did you read Seven's description of playstyle? It was hardly the best one. I'd likely have joined the bandwagon if it weren't already at L-3 or L-2 (not quite sure on the votes). Even if he is telling the truth, and it is how he plays as town, its hardly good town play. Kinda like how voting for someone with no reason and then asking them to make a case on themselves is not good town play (and a mite suspicious I might add. Why bother making a bogus case as scum if you can con the townie into doing it themselves?). I don't think playstyle is lynch-worthy, but its about the most substantial thing we've got to go on at the moment. Personally, I'm waiting on his answers before I say anything further.

And, it allows for discussion, the application of pressure, and for more useful tells to appear.

It seems odd to me that you vote someone for that, and then act as if your vote is any more justified than theirs. (Hint: It isn't).

Also, Jeromus, get a hair cut

I might post a little catch-up on my thought on players/the game as whole a little later, partially to get it sorted out in my head, partially to get it out there. As it is, I'm going out soon, so not just now.

p.s.

Mod: Could we get a votecount, please?

[Starbuck]

Vaya and pwnman are those with the most votes on them up to now, we should pick one and tunnel away.

I'm not comfortable with you advocating tunneling.

I can support a bandwagon without placing a vote, as can anyone else.

Supporting a bandwagon without placing a vote is scummy.

This is just playstyle, it's not scummy.

This isn't playstyle, imho. This is you waiting for someone else to come up with something so you can piggyback off it.

Obviously anything this early is going to be weak, though, and I acknowledge that in my voting post. I'd rather have a vote on someone for a reason than be voting someone randomly, no matter how far I have to reach to justify that reason.

Reasoning for a vote is good, reaching for a reason is not.

[esuriospiritus]

Tell me why your Seven vote is any better than your Jeromus vote, and I'll consider it.

Are you always this belligerent and unhelpful in your games? And anyway, I asked you first!

You also completely failed to acknowledge the second part of my questioning directed toward you in 97. I would appreciate it if you would rectify this ASAP.

What wagon do you think is most likely to be solely town-motivated?

Care to elaborate?

Here are the questions for reference. No excuses, now, my curt and entirely uncordial friend!

Reasoning for a vote is good, reaching for a reason is not.

I agree, generally speaking, but when we are only just barely out of the RVS I think it is a superior way to get reads on people (as opposed to voting randomly). Obviously once real progress on reads starts being made (say, midway to late through day 1 and beyond), reaching for a reason to vote someone shouldn't be necessary. Unless you're scum.

[jeromus]

I've gotta agree with Esurio on that point, actually. Better to have a reason, even be it a tiny one, than a random vote or a vote that claims to have a reason, but refuses to justify this reason.

[jeromus]

Also @Seven -

I can support a bandwagon without placing a vote, as can anyone else.

Well...not really. If we're still going with the bandwagon metaphor, then you're the guy running alongside the bandwagon, whilst everyone in there says "You know...You can stop running and hop in" and you don't, responding with "Nah, I don't want to be seen hanging out with you guys".

Seriously; I'm unphased by a lack of a vote, but that's awful logic for not voting. At least don't pretend that you're applying pressure by...Oh, right, doing nothing.

[esuriospiritus]

Good to hear that I can still logick when operating on severe sleep deprivation. Wheeeeeee!



...Don't mind me, I'm loopy. Goodnight. x_x;

[TonyMontana]

"Well, I'm a hair's breadth from investigating bunnies at the moment, so I'm open to anything"

VoteCount 1.2

L-4

Seven

(iamausername, bv130, esuriospiritus)

L-5

Vaya

(farside22, pwnman)
L-6

esuriospiritus

(Fate)
L-6

farside22

(jeromus)
L-6

iamausername

(Starbuck)
L-6

jeromus

( Vaya)
L-6

pwnman

(Wolframnhart)

Not voting: Seven, Azhrei

Deadline ≈ 7 days

[Seven]

Wolf 53:

three votes isn't a major thing in RVS stage, and to vote someone for bandwagoning in the RVS stage doesn't make much sense, how else would games get going most of the time?

I don't disagree with a pwnman vote, but I do disagree with his reasons. A fair amount of people don't like bandwagons early on in the game because they don't like tunneling especially if it's early on. I used to be one of these people. My stance has changed, but I don't think it's a tell on pwn. What I do think is suspicious about him is what IAUN brought up about him jumping on a BW after expressing he doesn't like them.

@BV 94:

See my 92.

@Wolf 95:

I should correct the word "bandwagon" to "tunneling", if me not voting is what your problem is. I do think it's possible to support a bandwagon without voting, though. You can clearly state your opinion on someone (ie this person is #1 on my scumlist for reasons A, B, C). If I was looking at a bandwagon the day after a mislynch I would include anyone who had done this about the player even if they hadn't voted, because at that point it might as well be a vote.

Just because I don't use my vote immediately in RVS or in the wee hours of the morning does not mean I'm not participating. I'm engaged in conversation, responding to your questions and addressing anything I think worthy of mention. From what your saying I could write a post like Vaya's RVS and that would be considered participation? I doubt it.

@ Fars 96:

I don't vote on a BW unless I'm convinced the person is scum. I have voted for people near day end who had no votes on them because I was convinced they were scum, and pushed (and got) their lynch. The BW is irrelevent to who I'm going to vote, it's just a means of getting everyone talking.

The point of the observation is to try and get a more objective view than everyone else at the beginning of the game. The reasons for this is just that at some point I realized replacements often had fresh insight in the game when they joined in, and I find that by not letting myself formulate an opinion on anyone right at the start I actually get to base my first impression of everyone on the way they're playing. Obviously there's a limit to how long I can do this for, there's a point at which it's no longer beneficial.

Not sure what you mean by your third question?

@Roslin 97:

All the questions that needed to be asked in the first two pages were asked. I'm always annoyed when people just repeat what others have said and avoid doing it unless I'm trying to make a point (or posting my thoughts). It is considered active lurking, I'm aware of it, I just don't think it's necessarily a bad thing at the start of a game. As I said previously, I think 2 days is reasonable.

Fate 101:

I rather you try to think of a case against yourself right now.

This should be interesting.

What?

Yes, it is interesting. That you would ask her this. Scummy as hell.

Fate 104:

Tell me why your Seven vote is any better than your Jeromus vote, and I'll consider it.

So basically you vote Roslin, and then ask her to build a case against herself, and if she doesn't you'll gladly switch your vote over to me if she builds a case against me? Can you not build a case against anyone yourself?

SB 106:

I'm not comfortable with you advocating tunneling.

I get it. I used to be against tunneling too.

Supporting a bandwagon without placing a vote is scummy.

Why is it scummy? If I explicitely say I think John is the scummiest player, and that I will most likely vote for him at some point, the vote might as well be cast. Otherwise I am supporting a bandwagon/the pressure from the bandwagon to explore a certain player. I don't need a vote to pressure a player.

This isn't playstyle, imho. This is you waiting for someone else to come up with something so you can piggyback off it.

No. If you don't agree that it's playstyle, fine. But don't say I'm trying to piggyback off anyone. I'm not waiting for anyone to buld a case on anyone else, I can do that myself. When I said I was waiting for a bandwagon I was waiting for everyone to pick someone to tunnel on. Not to make a case, not even to place a vote, just to pick who we should start with.

[wolframnhart]

And here i was expecting Seven to come back with a crap post after saying he would after night. I wasn't trying to say if you post like Vaya's RVS it would be fine, sorry if it came off that way, but your almost refusal to do anything else was what bothered me. A post like your big one makes me feel a little better about you.

[Fate]

So basically you vote Roslin, and then ask her to build a case against herself, and if she doesn't you'll gladly switch your vote over to me if she builds a case against me? Can you not build a case against anyone yourself?

You're overreacting. The implication was that I would consider explaining my vote ES, not switch over to join her on you. Your unprovoked defense is noted, though.

ES is still a better wagon, everyone. If we're going to vote people for not voting, Azhrei is up there too.

[farside22]

ES is still a better wagon, everyone. If we're going to vote people for not voting, Azhrei is up there too.

Why is ES a better wagon?

[farside22]

Rereading Seven in insolation I can see it as a misunderstanding of words. I looked at it as him wanting to jump on a BW but when he worded it here later:

I'm not trying to distance myself from a lynch, there's no lynch to distance myself from. You should wait until there's actually a bandwagon and more votes before you try to call me out for that. Maybe keep this one in your pocket and bring it back out in a couple days. I don't usually vote until pretty late, so it might stick

I started to see how he misspoke and his most recent post lays out the miscommuncation on this. I think I would like to see a view of who seven things is scum and why since he hasn't stated an opinion on that.

Mod: prod vaya and pwnman

With 7 days left I will not let people go 24 hours without posting in here and lurk on by like the game doesn't exist.

ES: Why did you move your vote from jeromus to seven?

[wolframnhart]

Huh, weren't you worried that Vaya would end up doing that?

[Azhrei]

Fate, are you reading the game? or are you intentionally misrepresenting things? I'm trying to decide whether you're incredibly scummy, or just bad.

I'm curious, how many games are you in?

After reading seven's post, I understand what he was trying to say earlier. I can see the wisdom in your playstyle, although if too many people do it, it won't work Nontheless, I'm happy to let you do that, provided you do start playing more outwardly reasonably soon.

[wolframnhart]

So i believe that everyone needs to start voting pwnman, after all three posts of not much but fluff needs to be dealt with.

[farside22]

Huh, weren't you worried that Vaya would end up doing that?

Doesn't mean I'm going to accept it. Do you think she should be allowed considering she stated she would keep up and not lurky?

[jeromus]

Everyone needs to start voting? You SURE that's the phrasing you're looking for?

[esuriospiritus]

ES is still a better wagon, everyone.

Wow! Thanks to your fabulous scumhunting and social skills, I have been convinced of my own obvious scumminess!

unvote; vote: esuriospiritus

unvote; vote: Fate

Y'know, Seven's right. Asking me to build a case on myself for him

is

scummy as hell.

@Farside: Seven's posts seemed to indicate he intended to actively lurk. My problem with Jeromus was largely resolved when I read his other games. Thus, I moved to the best lead I had at the time. Seven's issues in my mind have also been resolved by him actually posting something substantial (112).

[Azhrei]

wolf, I honestly think Fate is a better vote. I'm waiting for a response to the questions asked of him. After that, I'll make up my mind. I'm leaning strongly towards voting him, but I would like to see his attempt (or lack thereof) of an explanation, first.

On the topic of pwnman I think that he's being annoying and lurky, but not lynchworthy

just

yet.

[wolframnhart]

@Farside
It wasn't a question, the "huh" was a paused thinking "huh".. i think that makes sense. But no i don't think that she should be able to get away with saying she will keep up and then lurk.

@Jer
Probably not the wording i wanted to use, i should have said something like "Oh what do people think of pwnman now that seven has posted?" As i said, the three posting and the wording of them has kept my vote on him.

@Esur
Yea that vote doesn't seem very OMGUS at all does it? Even after the pointless self vote.