Mini 930:Morning People Mafia (Game Over!)

[Deer]

So, rzhang, your defense for your scummy actions is that they started the game and acted as a catalyst, and therefore, they were not scummy at all? I'm sorry, that just doesn't hold water. Whether or not they got discussion started, your vote on me came out of nowhere and with no reasoning at the time. That is scummy.

vote: rzhang

[fallen angel]

What I mean is that everyone should be allowed to claim. That's an unwritten rule. Also, if you're town, DO NOT FAKECLAIM. That just hurts the town and is one of the worst moves you can make. But it is an unwritten rule that people at L-1 should get the chance to claim and defend themselves, and anyone that goes for the quicklynch before then can should be lynched, or at the very least questioned a lot.

[fallen angel]

Oops, ninja'd by Deer. Post 101 directed at rzhang.

[Deer]

The not fakeclaiming also falls under "lynch all liars," a strategy I happen to agree with.

[fallen angel]

The not fakeclaiming also falls under "lynch all liars," a strategy I happen to agree with.

Me too. Lying is basically as antitown as it gets. A real townie has nothing to hide, so why lie?

[rzhang86]

HoS rzhang86.

He's taking more credit then he should for actions that did basically nothing.

if you really think my actions did nothing, then why has it become the center of discussion?

i did not take credit for your gambit and your actions. but i do take credit for my part, voting to L-1 (which, i dont mean this in an offensive way, you did not do and which is quite different from voting to L-2). and yes i am taking credit for getting the game going, a direct consequence of my L-1 vote. i give you credit for seeding the first interesting thing to happen in this game, and i take credit for making it flower.

i mean honestly, if you just dont believe me then there is nothing i can do, if i am lynched then so be it i have explained basically everything i have to say about it. analyze it and make your best judgements. i am playing this game to have fun, and the real fun is here, not in the random voting stage.

the random voting stage in my other game on this site lasted several long days and the game was so slow and went nowhere, and only picked up when a scum actually got so bored he left the game and was replaced, and the replacement made a stupid slip because he hadnt carefully read all the barren long pages thus far.

you can read my other game if you want, its all true. everything ive done so far has been in efforts to take the aspects of my previous game that i didnt like and better them here.

i think i have been very forthright and thorough, and also plausible to any reasonable person, in my explanations thus far.

[Deer]

The thing is, rzhang, your explanations have not been about why you are town and not scum. That's what this game is about. No one cares if your actions started discussion in the game - it's not a viable defense.

[rzhang86]

The not fakeclaiming also falls under "lynch all liars," a strategy I happen to agree with.

Me too. Lying is basically as antitown as it gets. A real townie has nothing to hide, so why lie?

broadly speaking yes townies shouldnt lie, but dont you think it is naive to say that there is never a circumstance in which it can be helpful to town if a townie lies?

i really am itching to elaborate on this, but i really feel it is inappropriate because that game is still in progress. all i will say is that i disagree, it is not always right to lynch all liars. some scum are smart, and to find them you must deceive them, and in some circumstances deceiving them also means deceiving everyone else until after the scum has fallen for the trap and things can be cleared up.

[Deer]

I think you're wrong about lynch all liars, rzhang, but there's a time and place for discussing that, not here.

[rzhang86]

The thing is, rzhang, your explanations have not been about why you are town and not scum. That's what this game is about. No one cares if your actions started discussion in the game - it's not a viable defense.

maybe, just maybe, it is because i obviously cant defend that i am town at this point? i mean honestly, what am i going to base it on, the random voting stage before this... because that was the only thing that has happened before this...

like i said, the field was empty. i have nothing to point at with which to defend myself.

i can only explain why i did what i did, i have no evidence to show that it was pro-town (and i even stated that it was not pro-town, it was a neutral action). yes it is a viable defense, because it explains my actions. im sorry i cannot explain why i am pro-town at this point. seriously, can anyone else give evidence that they are pro-town at this point?

please dont ask such loaded questions its really not good form

[fallen angel]

HoS rzhang86.

He's taking more credit then he should for actions that did basically nothing.

if you really think my actions did nothing, then why has it become the center of discussion?

Probably because you've inadvertently made everyone think you're scum. Just saying.

i did not take credit for your gambit and your actions. but i do take credit for my part, voting to L-1 (which, i dont mean this in an offensive way, you did not do and which is quite different from voting to L-2). and yes i am taking credit for getting the game going, a direct consequence of my L-1 vote. i give you credit for seeding the first interesting thing to happen in this game, and i take credit for making it flower.

Well, of course I didn't do it, after I saw the vote count was messed up. You think that bothers me? Of course not. But what did you do? Follow a failed gambit that you try to distance yourself from later? Nice.

i mean honestly, if you just dont believe me then there is nothing i can do, if i am lynched then so be it i have explained basically everything i have to say about it. analyze it and make your best judgements. i am playing this game to have fun, and the real fun is here, not in the random voting stage.

Why would we lynch you now? There isn't enough proof, nor has it been long enough. Fearmongering and paranoia much?

the random voting stage in my other game on this site lasted several long days and the game was so slow and went nowhere, and only picked up when a scum actually got so bored he left the game and was replaced, and the replacement made a stupid slip because he hadnt carefully read all the barren long pages thus far.

Shh. It's ongoing.

you can read my other game if you want, its all true. everything ive done so far has been in efforts to take the aspects of my previous game that i didnt like and better them here.

i think i have been very forthright and thorough, and also plausible to any reasonable person, in my explanations thus far.

The not fakeclaiming also falls under "lynch all liars," a strategy I happen to agree with.

Me too. Lying is basically as antitown as it gets. A real townie has nothing to hide, so why lie?

broadly speaking yes townies shouldnt lie, but dont you think it is naive to say that there is never a circumstance in which it can be helpful to town if a townie lies?

No. Never. Lying is *only* ever going to be anti-town.

[fallen angel]

The thing is, rzhang, your explanations have not been about why you are town and not scum. That's what this game is about. No one cares if your actions started discussion in the game - it's not a viable defense.

maybe, just maybe, it is because i obviously cant defend that i am town at this point? i mean honestly, what am i going to base it on, the random voting stage before this... because that was the only thing that has happened before this...

like i said, the field was empty. i have nothing to point at with which to defend myself.

i can only explain why i did what i did, i have no evidence to show that it was pro-town (and i even stated that it was not pro-town, it was a neutral action). yes it is a viable defense, because it explains my actions. im sorry i cannot explain why i am pro-town at this point. seriously, can anyone else give evidence that they are pro-town at this point?

please dont ask such loaded questions its really not good form

If you really were town, why give up? You do realize that's not good for the town, right?

[rzhang86]

@syke, can we get an official vote count asap?

[fallen angel]

@syke, can we get an official vote count asap?

Seconded.

[rzhang86]

@fallen angel

*sigh* i did not "inadvertantly" make everyone think im scum. i already stated that i KNEW i was putting myself out there as an element to be attacked. that was part of my gambit, part of the risk i was taking. i dont know how much more clear i couldve been about that.

you said my actions did nothing, but i dont understand why you would think that since my actions are currently the spotlight of attention.

and in response to your last post, im not following how you took that quote of me and interpreted as me saying i give up... i guess i will try to explain it yet again. you asked me (to paraphrase your words) why am i town and not scum? my reply is that i cannot show you that i am town, for the same reason that nobody else can show you that they are town, because there is no body of evidence draw from yet. prior to this was random voting, and prior to that was player confirmation. i can, however, show that i am not scum by my defense that my actions were neutral (ie neutral != scum).

i am not giving up and i cant find anything ive said to suggest that. if anything i am the most active person in this game right now, i mean why the hell would you think i am giving up?

i am getting the slight impression that maybe you are attempting to twist my words to fit your notion that i am scum...

[fallen angel]

*sigh* I meant you're actions did nothing to help my plan. It honestly hurt it, seeing as all attention was drawn towards you afterwards, so nothing was gained.

I get that. But you're saying that you're neutral. If you are town, instead of focusing on that, try and redeem yourself instead of saying "Well, I can't prove it to you." You aren't getting lynched within the next real-life day or more, (at least, not if the town has *any* commons sense), so get out of the hole you dug. I meant giving up on anything useful. All you're doing is saying "I'm not scum but I can't prove it. Oh, and I did everything useful with FA's gambit."

Nope. I'm just trying to figure out how you think you're helping in the least bit.

[rzhang86]

Vote Count:

Deer (4): Sucrose, water_foul, fallen angel, rzhang86
Sucrose (1): Nobody Special
Nobody Special (2): chauchaudotcom, havingfitz
smashbro_of_the_SSS (1):TeWuicah

With 11 players it takes 6 to lynch.

Deer is at L-2

um, so i duno if i missed something or what because i couldve sworn Deer was at L-1 after i voted? it was not my intention to bring him to L-2... did i mess up? if it was my mistake then i apologize for the fiasco

[rzhang86]

*sigh* I meant you're actions did nothing to help my plan. It honestly hurt it, seeing as all attention was drawn towards you afterwards, so nothing was gained.

I get that. But you're saying that you're neutral. If you are town, instead of focusing on that, try and redeem yourself instead of saying "Well, I can't prove it to you." You aren't getting lynched within the next real-life day or more, (at least, not if the town has *any* commons sense), so get out of the hole you dug. I meant giving up on anything useful. All you're doing is saying "I'm not scum but I can't prove it. Oh, and I did everything useful with FA's gambit."

Nope. I'm just trying to figure out how you think you're helping in the least bit.

for the moment im just going to respond very ambiguously that i believe i am helping and that i hope eventually there will come a time where i can show exactly how i am helping. and if that time comes, not that it definitely will, i hope you wont think that i am making up another "retroactive" explanation at that time.

my goal now is to just to convince people that i have not been scummy up to this point, to the best of my ability. whether or not i am viewed as being helpful is less important to me at this point in time.

[rzhang86]

other people please post, you look bad lurking during a time like this

[fallen angel]

Okay, it seems at least a bit antitown to say that you don't care how helpful you are in everyone's eyes, because you'd rather that they feel you aren't scummy. If you are truly town, you realize the way to appear as such is make useful contributions, right? I don't like this "I'm helping but you don't know it and I don't know if I can prove it" thought process. Waiting on votecount before I do anything...

Mod, votecount? Please?

[havingfitz]

Also, I'm a bit confused why I'm being voted or considered a suspect? There seems to be a bit of confusion as to who said what, and it would make it a great deal easier to explain myself if presented with a clear case.

I explained my reasons for suspecting/voting you in post 80. Are there other votes on you? I don’t think my vote is going to stay on you much longer though....

LOL wow everybody just turns around and vote for me. do you think im that stupid that i hadnt already thought about whether voting Deer would be scummy or not?

yes i knew i was putting him at exactly L-1 (not L-2, and not hammer). i voted Deer for the same reason fallen angel did... i was making his "gambit" more effective, if it was gonna work at all. L-2 isnt very much pressure, L-1 is when things happen if they are going to happen. i decided to support fallen angel's gambit because the game has been dead so far and this was the most proactive step anyone has taken yet.

OK...I think several people (myself included) were giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were a) too new at mafia to know what you were doing, and/or b) the vote count was unclear and you actually thought you were putting Deer at L-2 despite the fact that some of us (FA, the Mod, ergo me) thought you had placed an L-1 vote. Once I realised this was not the case I switched my vote to FA. You have vehemently corrected us however on your mafia experience...

yes i only have 1 game on my record, but that only means i am a noob to this particular website

(and we shouldnt talk about that game because i think it is still in progress). i am not so noob to just bandwagon in the most obviously suspicious way if i were actually scum.... give me some credit jeez

and which vote you thought you were making....

i knew full well that i was also putting myself out there as an element in the field that could be attacked (and also defended). my defense is that, i was trying to accelerate the game irrespective of my particular role in the game, and i did so in a way that i thought was relatively safe because it would be very nooby and stupid to vote Deer to L-1 actually expecting to lynch Deer in the context of the game at that time. i hope i have demonstrated myself to not be nooby or stupid, and if you can accept that then hopefully it will follow that

my voting Deer to L-1

was a null tell (not pro-town, not anti-town, just a null tell).

So to recap...you are experienced and you thought you were placing an L-1 vote on Deer on the heels of FA’s ‘gambit.’

Gotcha.

Additionally...since my perception that you were so new to mafia was based on a quick meta on you...and since you have gone on to reference the game which I drew my meta from...I will say I find your proclamations of your mafia abilities in contrast with what you stated in that game. Which was

“ im as noob as it gets, this is my first game ever. but i dont think it will necessarily be detrimental, naivety is sometimes a virtue

...which I took to mean this was your 2nd game ever.

you can read my other game if you want,

its all true.

everything ive done so far has been in efforts to take the aspects of my previous game that i didnt like and better them here.

It would appear that is not the case as you have stated in here that you are experienced at mafia.

The not fakeclaiming also falls under "lynch all liars," a strategy I happen to agree with.

Me too. Lying is basically as antitown as it gets. A real townie has nothing to hide, so why lie?

I agree. I gave rzhang a pass for his inexperience and the possibility of voting confusion. He appears to be experienced however and there was no confusion in his mind when he placed what he thought was an L-1 vote with no reason given whatsoever...beyond making things interesting. Sooooooo...

Unvote fallen angel

and back to

Vote: rzhang86

<---which I believe is vote #4 on you...aka L-2.

[havingfitz]

Vote Count:

Deer (4): Sucrose, water_foul, fallen angel, rzhang86
Sucrose (1): Nobody Special
Nobody Special (2): chauchaudotcom, havingfitz
smashbro_of_the_SSS (1):TeWuicah

With 11 players it takes 6 to lynch.

Deer is at L-2

um, so i duno if i missed something or what because i couldve sworn Deer was at L-1 after i voted? it was not my intention to bring him to L-2... did i mess up? if it was my mistake then i apologize for the fiasco

Actually...upon further review:

• 1- I don't think Deer is at L-1 at the moment as ssss' unvote seems to have gone unnoticed...by both FA and the mod.
  2- I don't think rzhang86 re-put Deer at L-1...the highest Deer has gone is L-2, which rzhang reput him at

PS...Mod...did I mention your vote count was wrong (again)?

@rzhang...is Deer your primary suspect or are you still prepetuating a wayward gambit?

[chauchaudotcom]

I can't picture a true town player saying "Well, I'm going to vote the one person with multiple votes on him without providing any reasoning." How could that come off as town at all?

It doesn't come off as town. But it seemed more like a newbie slip then a scum slip. Though it may have been a newbie scum slip. But really, with only one infraction claiming your sure he's scum is a pretty bold statement.

chauchau, I'm pretty sure you have me confused with water_foul, by the way.

Oh snap. My bad. Animal pictures are confusing me. xD

Hmm. Well, I'm personally okay with fallen's "gambit," but here's what I think could have happened: fallen places his vote, rzhang sees there's some sort of bandwagon happening, hops on. his vote is seen as scummy, he has to back up and pretend like he knew what fallen was doing the whole time to defend himself, which I'm pretty sure he didn't. he made that post only after fallen explained himself to the the town. Putting me at L-1 (which i think I wasn't ever at anyways, haha) for no reason doesn't really help the town. I'm not satisfied at all with his explanation of trying to help the gambit work - it just seems like retroactive justification to me. And now he's talking about whether this game will be "gambit friendly" as if he has a whole bunch of experience on the site.

Deer, do you think scum would knowingly L-1 someone on a

random

bandwagon? And how does his questioning of whether this game is gambit friendly make him scum?

Me too. Lying is basically as antitown as it gets. A real townie has nothing to hide, so why lie?

Fyi, PR have to lie sometimes. Also, I've seen some damn good pro town gambits that involved lying as well. But I'll agree that for the most part lying is anti-town.

Follow a failed gambit that you try to distance yourself from later? Nice.

Where did hang attempt to distance himself? If anything, he's taken full responsibility for his actions.

[chauchaudotcom]

Fitz - So rz isn't a noob and all. He's fully aware of the consequences of his actions. So why does that make him scum (above FA)? Particularly given he never really L-1'ed Deer.

[havingfitz]

Fitz - So rz isn't a noob and all. He's fully aware of the consequences of his actions. So why does that make him scum (above FA)? Particularly given he never really L-1'ed Deer.

When I first voted for rz...the reasons I gave applied. I then took my vote off because I thought based on other people's comments of noobiness and my meta on him (from his only other MS game) that he was in fact very inexperienced. That has turned out to not be the case and he has acknowledged thinking that he had placed Deer at L-1. So my initial reasons for voting rz apply again in addition to the discrepancies that seem to exist in how he has portrayed his mafia experience (in his two MS games).