Mafia 913: Wickedestjr's Mafia - Game Over

[Jazzmyn]

Hello, all

I'll start reading the thread and get started on my game notes shortly. It might take me a day or two to get fully up to speed but I'll chime in as soon as I can.

Meanwhile:

Unvote.

Regards,
Jazz

[Wickedestjr]

Votecount 18:

Zang - (4) - StrangerCoug, Vivi57, Fat_Tony, cruelty
cruelty - (4) - Jack, LeafSnail, Zhero, Zang

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: March 5th.

[Fat_Tony]

Looks like Jazzmyn has the power then. By the way, welcome, replacements.

Apologies for my lack of content recently. As someone said on the previous page, I got kind of fed up with this game when the Sir C/TQO war started up again, and even more so when TQO managed to get herself modkilled.

Re: cruelty vs. zang, I'm happy with my vote on Zang, and would sooner lynch Jack than cruelty, but there you have my 1,2,3 list of suspects also. If someone can convince me or provide me with a compelling case for why cruelty deserves the rope more than Zang, I'm happy to listen to it.

@LeafSnail - Depending on how confident you are in your predecessor's play, you might want to unvote while you're reading through - you could unwittingly contribute to a lynch you don't agree with otherwise.

[Leafsnail]

Oh, right.

Unvote

.

[StrangerCoug]

Looks like Jazzmyn has the power then.

What makes you say this? I'm not sure I understand what you're getting at.

As someone said on the previous page, I got kind of fed up with this game when the Sir C/TQO war started up again, and even more so when TQO managed to get herself modkilled.

The Quintastic One is male.

[Leafsnail]

Ok, I've now read through the entire thread. I'll post my notes below (note I got bored towards the end and started writing less and less, as I felt my suspicions had been laid down). I will summarise them here:

Zang is newbscum. Almost certain. Newbtown does not skulk, ask useless questions and bandwagon like that. He is also ridiculously self preserving at times. Vivi and Quin are more what I'd read as newbtown. I am prepared to end the day with a Zang lynch if noone has any serious objections.

Coug is most likely his partner. He was strangely reluctant to vote him on day 1, and I think he deserves a lot of scrutiny if Zang flips mafia. He also has a consistent refusal to commit, and his reasons for coming off previously strongly held convictions are poor.

SIR CYANIDE was probably scum. He deflected all over the place, and dropped accusations on Quin for no real reason. He also deflected and posted irrelevancies a lot. I am also slightly curious as to why he wasn't modkilled along with Quin.

Fat_Tony and Jack are on and off for me. Fat_Tony started off poorly, but got a bit better later. Jack hung back from Zang strangely, but some of his other posts make me think town. His apathy looks relatively genuine, too.

Cruelty... actually looks more town to me. His frustration at the end of day 1 seems legitimate, and I don't see Refuge in Audacity there. He made some good points early on too, although he seems to have given up somewhat recently.

Vivi reads newbtown to me. She seems to be attempting to find scum, albeit not terribly effectively, and I don't see her trying to self preserve in any way.

Which leaves Zhero, who I am leaning slightly town on, in spite of some lapses in behaviour.

There are my views. My notes on the game are below:

Leafsnail's Random Notes on Wickedestjr's Mafia
13 - Game starts
24 - Jack softclaims cop... what?
26 and 31 - WIFOM from Quin (26 and 31)
32 - PaltryExcuse with worryingly noncommital attack on Jack and Quin post
Discussion about Jack's claim follows (Buttonman explains logic behind investigating townies)
40 - StrangerCoug Possibly overstated attack on Quin. Also an attempt to excuse self with meta?
42 - AGar "I'm here" and with meta vote and slight attack on Jack.
43 - Interesting ideas from Jack, although I'd have to disagree. Scum probably wouldn't ask to be scanned since, y'know, they'd come up guilty.
44 - Zhero attacks and defends Jack in the same post?!
46 - OMGUS on StrangerCoug and OMGFoS on paltryexcuse.
More arguing about cops and inspections follows
52 - More distracting talk from SIR CYANIDE. Odd.
54 - Weird speculation from Jack, but decent case against SirCyanide.
56 - Apparent self contradiction from SIR CYANIDE. I would like clarification.
59 - Explains non vote for SIR CYANIDE
64 - DEFLECTION from Cyan. Again.
68 - Insults, deflection from SC...
70 - Zang - net cast far too wide. Siding with SC. Probscum.
73 - Something about ConfidAnon's attack on Jack bothers me.
77 - Quin votes Cyan
82 - Zang refuses to take a stance again
89 - Zang makes Odd vote on Cyan. Still probscum.
Jack vs SIR CYANIDE... hmm. Looks sorta like town fight.
137 - Cyan with interesting point v Jack
Arguments about rolefishing
146 - Jack votes Coug for lying about ISO?
150 - Lazy bandwagon from Zang
151 - Coug votes Jack for OMGUS
155 - Jack attacks Coug for being off the ball
Arguing between Jack and Coug. Coug comes off worse, imo.
161 - OMGUSy logic from Quin
166 - Zhero lightly attacks Coug and Quin
170 - Self preservation from Zang
178 - Jack unvotes Coug
182 - AGar makes some good points, but votes TheButtonmen, something I'd disagree with
187 - Quin votes Coug... for some reason?
190 - Vivi votes Cyan for no real reason
196 - OMGUS from Quin is OMGUS
201 - Coug switches from Jack to Quin
204 - Cyan makes good(ish) points, but I don't like the way he's not really accusing Quin
Note: Quin comes across as moronic town, to me.
214 - ConfidAnon attacks someone he thinks is town?
215 - Jack votes TheButtonmen without too much reasoning...
216 - Cyan bashes Quin some more... again, I don't like the tunnelvision
218 - Zhero with lurker vote
220 - Zang is still scum
224 - I have to disagree with my predecessor's analysis here
230 - Hallelujah! Someone votes the obv scum! Thanks, ConfidAnon.
233 - PaltryExcuse pressures Zang
236 - Zang unvotes?!
237 - Jack stalls over Zang. Looks kinda like partner behaviour.
239 - Coug also stalls on Zang.
Gutread: PaltryExcuse is town
244 - Cyan goes back to Quin
246 - Weirdness from Zang
251 - Coug FoS's Zang. Definate stalling here.
258 - Vivi hits Quin... for no real reason?
261 - I really don't like this from Coug. Definate weak target bashing.
266 - Zhero joins Buttonmen bandwagon for no real reason.
269 - ~~Zang is a stallin'~~
270 - Quin claims neighbour.
272 - Bad attack from Coug. He doesn't really give a reason for doubting the claim.
276 - More worryingness from Coug.
Partgutread: Coug is scum.
279 - Cruelty's post isn't at all bad, actually. He makes better attacks than a lot of people even without a vote.
Gutread: Cruelty is town.
283 - Coug wants to keep hold of his mislynch
Note - Lynch All Liars has been invoked a bit, but I haven't seen any lies from Quin.
Exchanges between cruelty and Paltry
295 - Very bad post from Cyan. Seems to be advocating townie lynch. Aggression has gone?
300 - Jumping from Coug. I am now fairly sure Coug is scum.
305 - Another bad post from Cyan. 95% is "unsure"?
Read: Cyan is scum.
306 - Fuck, summary from Quin. This isn't fair D:.
307 - Refuses to vote (odd) but doesn't look too bad.
309 - Zang is still scum.
313 - What is this... Coug, you have some explaining to do.
314 - Let's do the scumpost again!
316 - Cyan leaves Quin... probably realising he can't lynch a town PR on day 1?
321 - Post from predecessor. Who the heck is CA? Oh... ConfidAnon. Forgot he was even playing...
326 - Annoying jumpvote from Vivi is annoying.
334 - Fluff from Cyan. Worrying.
337 - Fat_Tony's post is worrying. I disagree with his Cyan read, he's noncommital on Jack and his TBM vote sucks.
344 - More self preserving from Cyan
346 - Don't like Cruelty's vote on TBM, but he has been on him before...
349 - Case for voting TBM from Cruelty
354 - Slightly better from Zhero
355 - Cyan looks like trying to distance himself from the outcome of the lynch.
359 - Low on content from Vivi, but seems genuine.
Gutread: Vivi is town.
I don't agree with Jack's suspicions, but he looks quite town here.
376 - Looks like Cruelty is bored town. I don't see RiA here.
382 - Yeah, I watched that vid too when I started. Quin is telling the truth - there is no neighbour role, and instead an explanation under "mafia mason".
390 - Pretty good from PaltryExcuse.
393 - Coug is more scum. I seriously dislike this logic.
409 - What the fuck kind of iso is this, Zang? Misspelling your name deserves a lynch? Silly scum is silly. Hammers...
Talking about Zang laying the hammer down follows.
424 - I disagree, past self. This is a good day one since at least 2 scumteam members have revealed themselves to us.
426 - Goddamn, strongest town read killed in the night. No fair.
428 - Reasoning on the day AFTER you made the hammer vote? What?
435 - Not bad from Vivi.
439/440 - Somewhat better from Fat_Tony
446 - Huh? ISO on confirmed town?
Zang continues to be scum.
460 - Tony's looking bad again
472 - Badposting from Coug.
480 - Uh... what, Jack?
483 - Hmm... doesn't look like RiA to me. I'm thinking Jack is town, and I sortof agree with this.
496 - Cyan abdicating any kind of usefulness he may have had?
506 - Hmm... could Coug be bussing obvscum Zang? Kinda hard to tell.
513 - Scum is always scum.
527 - Quin gets mad...
535 - Quin continues to be abrasive
542 - My gut says Zhero town for this post.
554 - What from cruelty
574 - If this post was a joke, it's a pretty hilarious one, Zang.

Thank god I'm finished desu~

Also, I have one question - how does one view a player's game in ISO? I haven't been able to find this feature.

[Leafsnail]

Oh my god it actually posted correctly. A miracle. Obviously a good omen for this game.

[Jack]

Below the quick reply box you can select someone's name instead of "all users" and hit go.

[Jack]

zang and coug I can see being scum together. Don't agree about sir cyanide. But I considered switching from TBM to cruelty yesterday and didn't which I'm kicking myself over.

[StrangerCoug]

Coug is most likely his partner. He was strangely reluctant to vote him on day 1, and I think he deserves a lot of scrutiny if Zang flips mafia. He also has a consistent refusal to commit, and his reasons for coming off previously strongly held convictions are poor.

I have to disagree with you here. Just because I'm shifting focus does not mean that I am refusing to commit. The only two people I heavily attacked and then dropped as suspects are Jack and The Quintastic One, Jack because I felt his defense of me was adequate and The Quintastic One because of SIR CYANIDE trying to policy lynch him. All other strong suspicions hold as such.

40 - StrangerCoug Possibly overstated attack on Quin. Also an attempt to excuse self with meta?

In hindsight, it was probably overdone, but talking about the cop when we don't even know if we have one in the first place is a bad idea.

I already defended using my meta as an excuse for future play.

239 - Coug also stalls on Zang.

I don't pursue cases on heresay.

251 - Coug FoS's Zang. Definate stalling here.

I didn't have a posted case on Zang at 239 and that's suspicious to you, and when I finally say what's tipping me off at 251, that's suspicious also? You can't damn me if I do and damn me if I don't. Zang wasn't my top suspect until after he hammered TheButtonmen.

261 - I really don't like this from Coug. Definate weak target bashing.

I wasn't hopping, like The Quintastic One was portraying TheButtonmen and me.

272 - Bad attack from Coug. He doesn't really give a reason for doubting the claim.

I interpreted "townie" as "vanilla" in TQO's posts, which led me to believe that the neighbor claim was contradictory.

276 - More worryingness from Coug.

TQO posted 276, not me.

283 - Coug wants to keep hold of his mislynch

While my question implies disagreement, I think you are reading a little too much into my question toward cruelty. I wanted to know how cruelty came to the conclusion that TQO was newbtown, which his posts implied he thought.

300 - Jumping from Coug. I am now fairly sure Coug is scum.

OK, how is my SCyan case here illegitimate?

313 - What is this... Coug, you have some explaining to do.

SCyan got to the point where he just wanted TQO to somehow become a nonfactor, which is anti-information.

472 - Badposting from Coug.

How is posting my impression of a player badposting?

[Leafsnail]

I already defended using my meta as an excuse for future play.

What? I don't buy this defence. Simply saying "Oh by the way I act scum so ignore it if I do" is very scummy behaviour in itself. Any decent player can manipulate their own meta as scum.

I don't pursue cases on heresay.

???

I didn't have a posted case on Zang at 239 and that's suspicious to you, and when I finally say what's tipping me off at 251, that's suspicious also? You can't damn me if I do and damn me if I don't. Zang wasn't my top suspect until after he hammered TheButtonmen.

Having such a case and merely giving an FoS without much pressure counts as stalling, in my book.

I wasn't hopping, like The Quintastic One was portraying TheButtonmen and me.

I didn't say you were - indeed, that is part of the problem. You didn't seem to change your vote even when you seemed to have changed your mind.

While my question implies disagreement, I think you are reading a little too much into my question toward cruelty. I wanted to know how cruelty came to the conclusion that TQO was newbtown, which his posts implied he thought.

So you don't deny aiming for a mislynch?

OK, how is my SCyan case here illegitimate?

It seems like an odd change of heart, considering your previous stance.

SCyan got to the point where he just wanted TQO to somehow become a nonfactor, which is anti-information.

Cyan was accusing him of being scum, but you seemed to be defending him because he'd posted a post with content in. I do not understand how they were linked or why you were defending him.

How is posting my impression of a player badposting?

If your opinion on him hadn't changed, it seemed an odd thing to say.

[StrangerCoug]

I already defended using my meta as an excuse for future play.

What? I don't buy this defence. Simply saying "Oh by the way I act scum so ignore it if I do" is very scummy behaviour in itself. Any decent player can manipulate their own meta as scum.

If I wanted to use my meta as an excuse, then why would I suggest that the cop consider investigating me? The only way I can see this making sense is if I wanted to be bussed.

I don't pursue cases on heresay.

???

I consider it bad play to just read everybody saying "hey, so and so is scum for such and such" and then jump on just on that. At best, you are denying yourself information because you're not assessing the validity of the case; just assuming it.

I didn't have a posted case on Zang at 239 and that's suspicious to you, and when I finally say what's tipping me off at 251, that's suspicious also? You can't damn me if I do and damn me if I don't. Zang wasn't my top suspect until after he hammered TheButtonmen.

Having such a case and merely giving an FoS without much pressure counts as stalling, in my book.

I wasn't hopping, like The Quintastic One was portraying TheButtonmen and me.

I didn't say you were - indeed, that is part of the problem. You didn't seem to change your vote even when you seemed to have changed your mind.[/quote]
Where is this?

While my question implies disagreement, I think you are reading a little too much into my question toward cruelty. I wanted to know how cruelty came to the conclusion that TQO was newbtown, which his posts implied he thought.

So you don't deny aiming for a mislynch?

I actually

DO

deny it. To ask how somebody came up with a read with which you agree is usually a waste of time.

SCyan got to the point where he just wanted TQO to somehow become a nonfactor, which is anti-information.

Cyan was accusing him of being scum, but you seemed to be defending him because he'd posted a post with content in. I do not understand how they were linked or why you were defending him.

That was about where I lost confidence in TQO-scum. I saw TQO posting content as damning of SCyan when he said he'd never do it.

[Jazzmyn]

I've read the thread and will do so again, but for now I'll just post the short version of my initial reads because the men's Olympic hockey game between Canada and the U.S. is

going to start any minute and I cannot miss that

on and I'm continuing during the intermission between the second and third periods.

My scum reads are Cruelty, Zang, Vivi and Jack.

Agar: He didn't post much and what he did post had very little substance. He was replaced by Leaf

who hasn't posted yet. Neutral at present.

Leaf's entrance looks good so far. Shift to the right.

Cruelty: Exhibits all kinds of scummy behaviour from lack of participation, dodgy votes without reasons, promising things and not delivering, wishy washy stances, fence-sitting, disappearing for several days after saying he would up his activity, etc. Scummy. (Also, I've played one game with him before and he looked scummy to me then, and turned out to be town, but his behaviour in this game is more egregious than it was in that game).

Fat Tony: He replaced ConfidAnon, whose posts did not inspire at all, but I quite like the cut of Tony's jib as he provides thorough examination and excellent analysis that appears forthright and honest.

Jack: I'm not enamoured of his softclaiming cop, milking it for all it’s worth with a lose/lose/lose scenario, then on Day 2 claiming it was all a joke. This is particularly bad because by soft claiming cop, he has deliberately drawn a possible protective role to himself, leaving a real cop (if we have one) exposed to being NKed. It just doesn't get any more selfish than that. That and the emotional claptrap on Day 2 don’t sit well at all.

StrangerCougar: I've played with SC several times, and with my initial skim, I thought his posts seemed a bit fluffy but reading the thread more thoroughly, he looks more like the town-SC that I’m used to than the scum-SC I've played with before. He’s active, engaged, posts from the hip; this doesn't look like the more calculated/calculating posts of scum-SC.

Vivi: She's setting my scumdar on edge. After her random vote, she disappeared for 4 days, saying she “forgot” about the game. I find that hard to believe. How does one "forget" their first and only game? Since then, she seems to show up once every two to three days (more often three) with very little content. Newbie or not, something rankles about this pattern because it looks like she’s just trying to post the minimum to avoid being prodded but remain out of the fray of any potential controversy.

Zang: I found myself going back and forth on Zang as I initially read through the game, sometimes thinking Newbtown, sometimes thinking Newbscum. I agree with much that has been said about him, and although I didn't get a strong "die, scum, die" pang from him initially, I do find his wagonhopping, his waffling, and his lack of defence more indicative of scum than town.

Zhero: Reasonably active, nothing showstopping but nothing scummy. Neutral/slight town.

More after the game.

Go, Canada, go!

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

Bah. Canada lost. It looks like it's going to be left up to our women's hockey team to kick butt - again.

So, back to the game. Although Zang is among my scum reads, the problem I have is that two of my other scum reads (Cruelty and Vivi) are on his wagon, and that gives me pause.

Thus, I would prefer a Cruelty lynch over a Zang lynch at present. However, we have lots of time to talk things through so I suggest that we do that.

Regards,
Jazz

[Wickedestjr]

Votecount 19:

Zang - (4) - StrangerCoug, Vivi57, Fat_Tony, cruelty
cruelty - (3) - Jack, Zhero, Zang

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: March 5th.

[Jazzmyn]

Hello? Is anyone still playing this game?

Regards,
Jazz

[cruelty]

i'm here.

i'm pretty content with my vote at the moment, i'm interested in leafsnail's impending reply to SCoug. don't have much to say to you (you find me scummy, how surprising), can't really defend vague accusations.

[Fat_Tony]

@whoever mentioned it, the reason I said Jazz had the power is because at the time two guys were at L-1, and Jazz's was the only uncast vote. Does that make more sense?

Liking content and analysis from both the reps. @Jazzmyn: aw shucks, you're making me (and my jib) blush... Lol

still pretty happy with my vote.

@cruelty- I forget whether it was you or coug, but I'm pretty sure someone was defending finding people scummy on gut reads alone a few pages back. If it was you, then does your view of the accusations against you change, if we call them 'gut reads'? I agree that the case against you currently isn't the strongest, but I do feel that valid points have been raised against you and your sole response has been to shrug at it.

[cruelty]

I don't recall saying much about gut reads (other than declaring my own), but I'll answer anyway.

I said this a few posts ago:

I don't think there's much of a case against me, it seems to be a bunch of circumstantial evidence that people are shoehorning to fit so I'm not really that motivated to defend it, or even to attack the people pushing it.

Still feel this way. As far as I can tell the case is based mainly on my TBM vote, everything else is just mundane junk that's less a product of my seeming scummy and more me being lazy.

So what do I think of the accusations? I'm not that impressed, I'm not motivated to defend myself. If you call them gut reads? Doesn't really make a difference.

What I do think though, is that there's definitely scum on my wagon. If zang is scum then I highly doubt they're both (assuming 3) bussing him already, therefore my belief in zangscum (about 75%) + my knowledge of my own innocence leads me to the inevitable and logical conclusion that scum is currently pushing my lynch. Zang and probably Jack.

Although Zang is among my scum reads, the problem I have is that two of my other scum reads (Cruelty and Vivi) are on his wagon, and that gives me pause.

I detest voting analysis. Especially ones like this, I genuinely don't understand why who is on the wagon matters. It just seems like a really contrived reason to avoid voting.

[Fat_Tony]

What I do think though, is that there's definitely scum on my wagon. If zang is scum then I highly doubt they're both (assuming 3) bussing him already, therefore my belief in zangscum (about 75%) + my knowledge of my own innocence leads me to the inevitable and logical conclusion that scum is currently pushing my lynch. Zang and probably Jack.

Although Zang is among my scum reads, the problem I have is that two of my other scum reads (Cruelty and Vivi) are on his wagon, and that gives me pause.

I detest voting analysis. Especially ones like this, I genuinely don't understand why who is on the wagon matters. It just seems like a really contrived reason to avoid voting.

Um, ok... Am I to therefore take it that you detest your own assertion that there's scum on your wagon?

It seems like a logical question to ask.

[Zhero]

sorry, did not have time to post explaination but he jumped on tbms and now my wagon with little explaination.

The irony is palpable. Not really doing a whole lot for your case here.

If I wanted to use my meta as an excuse, then why would I suggest that the cop consider investigating me? The only way I can see this making sense is if I wanted to be bussed.

I think that's the thing that's confusing me here; you didn't actually suggest that the cop investigate you, so the comment lacks context.

[Vivi57]

What information do we get from a TBM lynch? Well we now know that everything he said and did was pro-town intentioned,

we know that scum was likely on his wagon and we know scum probably pushed the mislynch.

This is generally stuff that can be referred to when making a case, something that hasn't really happened today and so hasn't come into play. It will, I'm sure.

Although Zang is among my scum reads, the problem I have is that two of my other scum reads (Cruelty and Vivi) are on his wagon, and that gives me pause.

I detest voting analysis. Especially ones like this, I genuinely don't understand why who is on the wagon matters. It just seems like a really contrived reason to avoid voting.

cruelty: why do you keep contradicting yourself?

[cruelty]

I didn't.

I said I don't like voting analysis - I don't. If I think it's relevant then it's a viable tool, but it's not something I'll use as a foundation for a vote (or as a reason to not vote).

Am I to therefore take it that you detest your own assertion that there's scum on your wagon?

Nope. I think it's a valid point. Wouldn't make a case based on it though.


I gotta be careful though. I can understand the confusion so I'll explain a little bit more.

I think that voting analysis - carefully poring over voting history, looking at who's on wagons etc, and letting what you find influence your decision making is ridiculous. In every game I play there's always numerous examples of town making strange votes, being on wagons they have no real business being on, avoiding scum lynches etc, and I really, really don't put much stock in people being able to use this information successfully.

I think it's has its place, but the only time I'll ever look closely at votes as some sort of genuine factual information is a flip. This is where you're seeing a 'contradiction' - I'm positive there was scum on the TBM wagon; it's a logical conclusion rather than some halfbaked idea.

I detest it being used as a reason to do (or to not do) something, and I detest people making a big deal about it because ultimately I think that it's a much greyer area than people make out. The only time we deal with facts in this game is when we see a flip (PRs and scum do too but for the most part that info is limited to a select few and can't be considered) so therefore the only time voting analysis is a valid tool (imo) is when looking at the end of day wagon.


Incidentally vivi you need to step up your game. You're not involved, you're basically repeating points others have made (the above is a good example, you're just rewording Tony) and you're posting about once every 3 days. I suspect you're probably newbscum trying to avoid making errors, but what you're doing is very, very close to active lurking.

[StrangerCoug]

Happy birthday mod!

If I wanted to use my meta as an excuse, then why would I suggest that the cop consider investigating me? The only way I can see this making sense is if I wanted to be bussed.

I think that's the thing that's confusing me here; you didn't actually suggest that the cop investigate you, so the comment lacks context.

That is correct; if I remember correctly, I suggested that Jack be investigated.

[Fat_Tony]

Incidentally vivi you need to step up your game. You're not involved, you're basically repeating points others have made (the above is a good example, you're just rewording Tony) and you're posting about once every 3 days. I suspect you're probably newbscum trying to avoid making errors, but what you're doing is very, very close to active lurking.

I'm only playing devil's advocate here, but taking Jazz's point that although she is reading zangscum, she notes her other two scumreads are you and Vivi, and that you're both on Zang's wagon, it's tempting to read this as crueltyscum chastising viviscum for playing too scummily.

However, that's not necessarily something I personally buy into.

I remain happy with my vote, although I grow increasingly uneasy that Zang's play may just be more inept than scummy.