Open 205 - Medical Mafia - Game Over Too Soon?

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Looker: Harass was probably the wrong term. I was in a writing mood at the time (I was writing flavor for my upcoming Open game), and I can get a little creative with my wording when that happens.

That said, your insistence that one of Mykonian and XScorpion has to be scum is, well, scummy. There is no proof that either one of them is actually scum, and I can't help but wonder whether you created that in order to try and get the wrong one lynched. I know I've used this tactic as scum before. (Free scumtell for you, Mykonian. Today's your lucky day.)

Unvote: Light. Vote: Looker.

L-2, I believe.

@ Mindgamer: I personally think your voice should back up your vote, but I think this is more of a disagreement of opinion versus a scumtell.

Vote Count #5

Looker (3) - XScorpion, Mindgamer, SaintKerrigan
mykonian (2) - Looker, kyle99
Mindgamer (1) - mykonian

Not Voting (3) - danny135, DiscoRoboto, Light

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

[mykonian]

Mykonian stop bugging Saint, it's getting us nowhere since you started it and it's the prime example of psuedo-scumhunting.

I heard light say 'you know what your role does etc' this is not true. What if you are a killing role and target the same target as the normal doctor, and nothing happens. what do you know now?

unvote

gonna retreat my vote... for now. I want to keep options open.

@Light, what exactly about Mindgamers post makes you think he's one of the townies?

Oh, and why is this pseudo-scumhunting.

No, disco, the point is very simple. There is only one type of player that doesn't want to tell how we can catch him if he is scum.

and that is scum. I actually don't care what the tells would be,

I am much more interested if the person wants to avoid the question

, because that is a hard and definate scumtell.

This with the defensiveness of StK of me, right in the beginning (for looker this is rather normal, seen his meta), but for StK, he has to know something, I think.

But that point is hardly convincing, so I needed more evidence. And here you have it.

unvote vote StK

You are scum.

[mykonian]

After mulling it over for a while, I still think Mykonian is the person to lynch now.

vote: Mykonian

I really think that we're going to win this game by scumhunting. Relying on night-actions could really blow up in our face.

I has the superior argument, LETS DO BOTH.

Please, kyle, since when is it normal to scumhunt, since when have I said I absolutely wouldn't do that? Actually, you are the one who has only debated with yourself to vote or not, and have given very little information.

So, get scumhunting, and stop pretending like I don't want to. This vote sucks.

[SaintKerrigan]

How is avoiding your question a "hard and definite" scumtell, Mykonian? I told you multiple times already, if you want to see how I act as scum, go look up my meta. I've told you multiple times why I don't want to just go off and name my scumtells.

Also, you should meta me to see how defensive I can be of players

as town

. If you're going to clear Looker based on meta, I think you should at least try and look up my own meta to see if I do the same thing.

[Mindgamer]

There is only one type of player that doesn't want to tell how we can catch him if he is scum.

A sane player.

This with the defensiveness of StK of me, right in the beginning (

for looker this is rather normal, seen his meta

), but for StK, he has to know something, I think.

So you refuse to do a meta-read on SaintKerrigan, but in the mean time you have done a meta-read on Looker?
Oh, and I see completely no reason for you to suddenly defend Looker.

Looker is defending Mykonian. Mykonian is defending Looker. Cool.

[mykonian]

How is avoiding your question a "hard and definite" scumtell, Mykonian? I told you multiple times already, if you want to see how I act as scum, go look up my meta. I've told you multiple times why I don't want to just go off and name my scumtells.

and I tell you you do it because you are scum.

[mykonian]

Why are you defending StK, mindgamer? Is he your scumbuddy? In fact, until now, I have had only one player avoiding this question, and that player was scum, while I had some people answer it in an ongoing game. Good luck winning this argument.

and I have played with looker before, dear mindgamer. I think I have a good idea how he plays/thinks. And I see nothing surprising.

[SaintKerrigan]

and I tell you you do it because you are scum.

Well, there's nothing that I can say to this, except that you're wrong.

In fact, until now, I have had only one player avoiding this question, and that player was scum, while I had some people answer it in an ongoing game. Good luck winning this argument.

So, just because one player avoided answering the question turned out to be scum, all players who avoid answering the question are scum. This is terrible logic, Mykonian. One person refusing to answer your question is not enough to make your test a valid tell.

You're still welcome to take the time to meta me. Just look in my Wiki. Compare my scum play to my town play. If you're too lazy to do that, try to recall the one game we played together, Open #192.

In fact, the reason I'm not sure you're scum now is because you've been playing similarly to your meta in #192, in which you were town.

[DiscoRoboto]

Wow, just wow.

Mykonian, what did you sow to reap such knowledge from your fields of neverending wisdom and waterproof arguments?

[mykonian]

Disco, what did you mean by that?

[Looker]

danny135 has been prodded.

Also, to rival

Kyle's List

...

SCUM

Mykonian
SaintKerrigan/Mindgamer
Light/Kyle/DiscoRoboto/Danny
XScorpion
Looker

TOWN

Damn, your list has color. Mine looks like a joke now

After mulling it over for a while, I still think Mykonian is the person to lynch now.

vote: Mykonian

I really think that we're going to win this game by scumhunting. Relying on night-actions could really blow up in our face.

unvote
vote Kyle

Well XScorp, see it as a compliment

Could you add anything to the conversation?

Yes, I could add that I'm actually not as intelligent as I pretend to be and some people are right to call me out on it.

I'd normally join the Mykonian train but I'm still really suspicious about Looker's actions towards Danny.

They worked.

Town has got two tools: Voice and Vote. And. Not slash. Town is able to use them both in a different way. You don't have to use your vote to add strength to your suspicions. That's why I used my voice on Looker and my Vote on Light.

Light has posted now, but I stil don't see any original content. Almost everything he said has already been said by others. But since my vote will not change that much, I wil unvote. I will remember Light's refusal to post original content though.

Unvote

Back to Looker, yay!

- Disagreements are not scum-tells. It would be more profitable to accuse me on other grounds.

I called you scum because you are trying to take my attention away from Mykonian, not because of the disagreement on the plan. Straw Man again.

I fail to understand how I can take your attention away from anything. I do, however, understand, and can somewhat appreciate, your affinity for the term "Straw Man". Everything is not as vindictive as you make it out to be, whether purposely or otherwise.

I also believe your vote is baseless, Mindgamer, and as ineffective as you claim my vote on Danny to be. We're both voting for the same thing - more content

We're not, I'm voting for more content. You're voting for nothing.

Yet another disagreement.

so I'd encourage you to belay your suspicions of me until you find a more adequate reason to vote.

Voice =/= Vote

With this I agree.

RE: Mindgamer's Vote On Light
- As I've already stated, I don't like the fact that he accuses me of being scum and then goes on to perpetrate the same act for which he called me scum in the first place. It's hypocritical.

I accused you of being scum for taking my attention away from Mykonian and pushing a L-1 wagon on someone who isn't here.. I did the same act however, you say. So I took my own attention away from Mykonian and I'm pushing a L-1 wagon on Light, whom is not here. YES.

Once again, I find it impossible to take your attention from anything, especially since you can read and, also once again, I was in no way pushing an L-1 wagon on Danny. I expressed this (and re-expressed this) already. Though somewhat, humoring, I find your sarcasm unhelpful. (LOL! LOL! LOLLL!)

As misguided as you are, I agree with you. Unvote; Vote: Mykonian

So first you try to get me off the Mykonian wagon by telling me to move on, and now you're joining his bandwagon?


Straw Mans.
Vote=Voice.
Very strange voting behaviour.

Vote: Looker

You're eerily obsessed with Mykonian.

Oh btw, I'm confused. Why do we know that either XScorpion or Mykonian is scum?

I was under the assumption that since you and Scorpion continually attack Mykonian that at least one of you was confident enough in the other's scumminess. Either way, I've already addressed this but will do so again if you remind me. I have to find the post.

@ Looker: Harass was probably the wrong term. I was in a writing mood at the time (I was writing flavor for my upcoming Open game), and I can get a little creative with my wording when that happens.

That said, your insistence that one of Mykonian and XScorpion has to be scum is, well, scummy. There is no proof that either one of them is actually scum, and I can't help but wonder whether you created that in order to try and get the wrong one lynched. I know I've used this tactic as scum before. (Free scumtell for you, Mykonian. Today's your lucky day.)

Unvote: Light. Vote: Looker.

L-2, I believe.

@ Mindgamer: I personally think your voice should back up your vote, but I think this is more of a disagreement of opinion versus a scumtell.

My bad for believing they knew what they were doing.

There is only one type of player that doesn't want to tell how we can catch him if he is scum.

A sane player.

This with the defensiveness of StK of me, right in the beginning (

for looker this is rather normal, seen his meta

), but for StK, he has to know something, I think.

So you refuse to do a meta-read on SaintKerrigan, but in the mean time you have done a meta-read on Looker?
Oh, and I see completely no reason for you to suddenly defend Looker.

Looker is defending Mykonian. Mykonian is defending Looker. Cool.

Are you capitalizing on the fact that I like playing with Mykonian? Because I see you're capitalizing on the fact that you came off the more townish due to your discussion of his plan.

MOD: DID SCUM GET TO USE THE SCUMTOPIC PRE-GAME?

[XScorpion]

Worked how? Danny was prodded, but still isn't here. I fail to see how trying to get a Danny bandwagon started is pro-town in any way.

[Alduskkel]

MOD: DID SCUM GET TO USE THE SCUMTOPIC PRE-GAME?

There is no scum QT. They were allowed to PM each other before Day 1 started, however.

[Light]

mod: any word on replacement of danny?

He has about 20 hours from the time stamp on this post to pick up his prod and post.

myko's shift towards StK was a risky one at that. why are you now aiming StK? I guess avoiding answering a question would be abit "scummy" but it is well off confirming that they are really the scum.

[quote="MindGamer"]So you refuse to do a meta-read on SaintKerrigan, but in the mean time you have done a meta-read on Looker?[quote]

nice catch. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from searching for how StK plays. Asking for someone's weakness = complete stupidity. Its like saying "Lex: Oh hello there superman, what is your weakness?" "superman: kryptonite, it hurts me when i touch it or near it". No person who is not mentally f*cked in the head would tell you his/her weakness, unless of course you were good friends.

!vote myko

[mykonian]

Blue is theory.

So you refuse to do a meta-read on SaintKerrigan, but in the mean time you have done a meta-read on Looker?

nice catch. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from searching for how StK plays. Asking for someone's weakness = complete stupidity. Its like saying "Lex: Oh hello there superman, what is your weakness?" "superman: kryptonite, it hurts me when i touch it or near it". No person who is not mentally f*cked in the head would tell you his/her weakness, unless of course you were good friends.

!vote myko

Wait a minute. If I asked someone's weakness as town, that would be insane, and superman is clearly town. If I asked confirmed scum what his weakness was, that would be insane too.

But what if I suspect someone of being scum, and ask for his weakness as scum?

Town has no worries, he can just tell, he is not telling his weaknesses as town.
Scum has worries.

Meaning that the question is a way to deduct who is scum. The answer itself doesn't matter, it is how much that person worries about answering. And StK worried very much.

And I no longer read other games. I just have played quite often with looker, and only one game with StK. So I have quite a good idea how looker plays, and I barely know StK.

Plus that you have a very minimalistic idea of "meta". You see it as what people do when playing as a certain role. Since the way people play changes rapidly, this information is not very usefull. It is easy to get.

But if you know how a person normally thinks, if you know he is a gambler or not, if you know he loves to manipulate, and how good he is at it, if you know how concious he is of his own actions, you can predict much better how someone is going to act. This takes time before you know this, but this "meta" hardly changes over time. This is the "meta" I'm talking about.

Oh, and Looker is concious about what he is doing as scum. You won't catch him this way.

[SaintKerrigan]

How many games have you played with Looker, Mykonian? I'm looking for an exact number here.

Also, your theory on your question is flawed. You haven't run it enough times to determine that a majority of the people who refuse to answer the question are scum. Only

once

has a person refused to answer your question (before me), and that one time the person happened to be scum. But once isn't enough to set a precedence. Thus, you can't use it reliably as a scumtell.

Unvote: Looker. Vote: Kyle99.

Scumhunt moar plz.

@ DiscoRoboto: How have you played multiple games with Mindgamer when your join date is less than two weeks ago? Are you an alt?

[kyle99]

Sorry guys, I've been a bit busy with school and haven't had much time to play mafia. I'll probably only be able to get on once a day or so.

Looker, Light, and Mykonian are starting to look more town to me.

XScorpion is just coasting and doing almost no scumhunting.

Want to hear more from XScorpion and Danny's replacement.

unvote, vote: XScorpion

[Looker]

Worked how? Danny was prodded, but still isn't here. I fail to see how trying to get a Danny bandwagon started is pro-town in any way.

Well I fail to see how You/Mindgamer=obvtown and why I should consider any of your input when none of it has been helpful. Why

don't

you have a wagon on you yet?

MOD: DID SCUM GET TO USE THE SCUMTOPIC PRE-GAME?

There is no scum QT. They were allowed to PM each other before Day 1 started, however.

Mykonian: "I'm going to propose a plan and you refute it, k?"
Mindgamer: "Kewl."

mod: any word on replacement of danny?

He has about 20 hours from the time stamp on this post to pick up his prod and post.

myko's shift towards StK was a risky one at that. why are you now aiming StK? I guess avoiding answering a question would be abit "scummy" but it is well off confirming that they are really the scum.

So you refuse to do a meta-read on SaintKerrigan, but in the mean time you have done a meta-read on Looker?

nice catch. There is absolutely nothing stopping you from searching for how StK plays. Asking for someone's weakness = complete stupidity. Its like saying "Lex: Oh hello there superman, what is your weakness?" "superman: kryptonite, it hurts me when i touch it or near it". No person who is not mentally f*cked in the head would tell you his/her weakness, unless of course you were good friends.

!vote myko

Silly piggy, search is disabled [for performance reasons].

unvote
vote Light

Oh, and Looker is concious about what he is doing as scum. You won't catch him this way. [/color]

[Looker]

Are we replacing DiscoRoboto?

Wow, just wow.

Mykonian, what did you sow to reap such knowledge from your fields of neverending wisdom and waterproof arguments?

[DiscoRoboto]

Are we replacing DiscoRoboto?

Wow, just wow.

Mykonian, what did you sow to reap such knowledge from your fields of neverending wisdom and waterproof arguments?

Funny guy As if ;D

@ DiscoRoboto: How have you played multiple games with Mindgamer when your join date is less than two weeks ago? Are you an alt?

Dutch community site. Check my wiki page.

I honestly want MORE people to talk, it's hard to draw conclusions from just a few people talking. Currently I'm most satisfied with a Looker/Myko lynch because of remarks like this:

Looker:

unvote
vote Kyle

random voting out of the RVS?

They worked.

They didn't

I was under the assumption that since you and Scorpion continually attack Mykonian that at least one of you was confident enough in the other's scumminess.

Then why isn't Mindgamer mentioned?

------------------------------------------------
Myko:

Meaning that the question is a way to deduct who is scum. The answer itself doesn't matter, it is how much that person worries about answering. And StK worried very much.

Worrying can't be read over the internet like that.

Oh, and Looker is concious about what he is doing as scum. You won't catch him this way.

How do you know how conscious Looker is executing his actions? The only way to know that is by being his scumbuddy.


Yeah stuff like that.

[mykonian]

How many games have you played with Looker, Mykonian? I'm looking for an exact number here.

Also, your theory on your question is flawed. You haven't run it enough times to determine that a majority of the people who refuse to answer the question are scum. Only

once

has a person refused to answer your question (before me), and that one time the person happened to be scum. But once isn't enough to set a precedence. Thus, you can't use it reliably as a scumtell.

Theory predicts, StK. You are directly moving to the practical application, skipping my theory. I assume that means I was correct there, and it

is

scummy not to avoid this question (or any question).

Of course, you could still be town, but that is the same with every tell. Nothing is absolute, and that is what you are saying here.


Further, I am not completely certain how many we played, maybe looker can name one I missed.

A newby game (although it doesn't really count, he got mislynched early, after playing quite playfully, almost role-playing like, liking the idea of the game)
A poly lovers game, as town.
then, I remember a game where I said that the above two had happened, and that I this time wouldn't try to mislynch looker, and seen that I have no good memories of that, I believe I was mislynched pretty quickly.

uhm, I probably forget 1.

And Looker has a playstyle (you can probably confirm that seen the above, and here), that gives a lot of reactions, but makes people also very suspicious of him. Meaning that Looker is often in the defensive. In this, there are similarities between mine and lookers playstyle. Maybe that makes it easier to understand where he is coming from.

[mykonian]

Myko:

Meaning that the question is a way to deduct who is scum. The answer itself doesn't matter, it is how much that person worries about answering. And StK worried very much.

Worrying can't be read over the internet like that.

Oh, and Looker is concious about what he is doing as scum. You won't catch him this way.

How do you know how conscious Looker is executing his actions? The only way to know that is by being his scumbuddy.


Yeah stuff like that.

Uhm, Disco. Read my posts.

First, worrying is expressed in the avoidance of the question. Someone who didn't worry about it, would answer without problem. Someone who worried a bit would maybe wait a post, then be convinced he should answer. Somebody who really doesn't like it, and worries about the consequenses? Doesn't answer.

And that last point plain sucks. You see how looker plays. He makes a vote without reason. Why would he do that, assuming he is a clever guy (he is)?

Because a: he know people will react on it, and based on these reactions he tries to find someone reacting weird
b: he knows the above, is concious about what he does, and is scum doing it.

Being concious about what you are doing = quite able to copy his town meta as scum.

Basically, Disco, you make your theories about who is scum or not too complicated. For example, the looker-concious- point:

What you claim would have happened: pregame looker-scum would have told what he thinks when he posts (very unlikely)
ingame, scum-myko accidentaly spills this information (also unlikely, seen that it is an accident, they don't happen very often).

This makes that the actual argument is very weak, since it is very unlikely. Please check your other points too :/ because one can hardly argue when the theories you base your votes on are this far-fetched

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Mykonian: You are incorrect. It is

not

scummy to avoid your question. You're predicting that I am scum because the person before me who refused to answer your question was scum. One time is not enough to be a reliable tell. The only other thing you have to say against me is that my defense of you is suspicious, which you admit yourself is not enough. Thus, both of your reasons for voting me are weak. I strongly urge you to reconsider your vote.

Meanwhile, Kyle's got a point about XScorp.

Unvote: Kyle99. Vote: XScorpion.

[mykonian]

@ Mykonian: You are incorrect. It is

not

scummy to avoid your question. You're predicting that I am scum because the person before me who refused to answer your question was scum. One time is not enough to be a reliable tell. The only other thing you have to say against me is that my defense of you is suspicious, which you admit yourself is not enough. Thus, both of your reasons for voting me are weak. I strongly urge you to reconsider your vote.

Meanwhile, Kyle's got a point about XScorp.

Unvote: Kyle99. Vote: XScorpion.

I predict it because scum is the only one who has problems with answering that question.

Why do you keep strawmanning me by hammering on that I only used it once before, in stead of arguing the theory?

BECAUSE YOU CAN'T ARGUE ABOUT THAT

And I would be happy with a scorp lynch. I hate a disco-Looker-kyle lynch. I don't think any of them should happen today. Light is a neutral, mindgamer is annoying, xscorp always scum, and Danny is ???

[SaintKerrigan]

I predict it because scum is the only one who has problems with answering that question.

I told you, why would I want to outright admit my tells? It hampers my play in the future as scum. As a player, I would prefer to not do that.

I keep hammering the point that you've only used it once before because you're trying to equate refusing to answer the question with scumhood, when that is incorrect. Your proof is that one example. I'm saying that one example is not proof that the system works.

If anything, why

wouldn't

scum answer the question? All they have to do is consciously avoid performing the tells they list, and you aren't going to be able to catch them. As is observed, not answering the question serves to bring attention to yourself. Why would I do that as scum?