Open 184: Friends and Enemies Mafia (Over)

[DarkLightA]

Okay, I'm convinced. Kise's post was just enough to make me understand.

Vote: Kise

And we are NOT having another night. Period.

[Ellibereth]

Dla, link to your scum games please.
I don't see Kisescum.

[Kise]

DLA.

Show me what you got, including why you believe I'm scum and why you believe OJ is town.

[Kise]

Hmm.

I'd hammer but Ojanen asked us not to and I like Ojanen.

You're correct, OJ. This came a while after you did your scumlist and also after you went over posts by Neto you said were bad. Pardon me for trying to go off memory alone, tee hee hee. Still doesn't change the fact Serial didn't give Kitty a chance to post again before fussing about her list (but that's nothing that makes you any more scummy). He pretty much jumped in not long after she made her scumlist.... okay, hold on, lemme iso it to make sure my dates are matching....

Yup, the very next post was SC being a player hater.

And to give OJ the benefit of the doubt... DLA, could you also explain why you recently said you weren't in favor of a draw, but earlier this same day you said a draw was the only fair outcome?

[DarkLightA]

Kise, the reason is that before I had no clue as to who was scum, but now it's quite obvious.

[Ellibereth]

Kise, the reason is that before I had no clue as to who was scum, but now it's quite obvious.

DLA, scum games.
Why is Oj town? Why is Kise scum?

[Ojanen]

DLA, can you tell the specific triggers after saying draw would be fair and before being confident on Kise scum that led you to the conclusion?

I will be done with my rereading by tomorrow night to post my call.

[dramonic]

The Thirtiseventh Votecount: Mystery Broken Triangle.

Ojanen (1): Kise
Kise (1): DLA

Not Voting (2): Ellibereth, Ojanen

With 4 alive it takes 3 to lynch.

deadline is in a week (give or take 1 day)!

[Ellibereth]

btw guys, Kise's all but confirmed town for me.
He wouldn't have no killed, convincing me to vote for either one of you two would have been a piece of cake.
Save an extremely brilliant case comnig foward. you guys (DLA and OJ) should crossvote.

[Ojanen]

I am fucking blind. Fucking BLIND.
So I had finally the time I needed.
I just looked at the relevant workings of D1 again, holy shit did I need that context with all the flipped people in place.
I have sucked so bad in this game that I'm just literally grinning compulsively at my stupidity right now. God I suck at mafia. Blind. Blind.

It's DLA. Kise doesn't even need to do his entrance, the trio makes complete sense in context. I dunno if it's the fact that I had a bout of scum pms before this game to make me sink knee deep in wifom every time scum did these obviously scummy and benefiting things because I overcompensate in such quantities myself but dammit. I've been senseless.

Some of the things I can show you to see why DLA is scum and I am a fucking idiot rather than scum.
For example, DLA's take on Neto.

DLA, why have you not included Netopalis in your read?

Sorry, I overlooked it.
Neto: Much information and contribution to the thread. Not really much bad about this player. Leaning towards town.

All right. Remember that game Neto referenced in the very beginning when DLA was getting early heat and he said DLA acts "extremely, extremely scummy as town" so logical leaps shouldn't be held against him?
It's this newbie game right here, Neto was scum, DLA was town.
Compare Neto's iso in that game to his early iso in this game. I find it very similar, certainly in the surface level "pro-towniness".
DLA's take on Neto in that game? Neto was his top suspect, because he saw Neto's posts in this light:

There's a difference between not posting much, and posting a lot, but with no content. The latter is often used by scum to gain trust among pro-towns, because of activeness.

Look at the above Neto read in this game. His calling of Neto town for the style of his posts here makes not the slightest sense in light of this meta, his call in the earlier newbie game that proved correct there.
Btw, at the time of his Neto vote, DLA says

Sure. I've actually changed to feel more of an if-Neto-is-scum-then-CS-is-scum than if-CS-is-scum-then-Neto-is-scum if you understand..

Yet he has never ever uttered anything negative about Neto, except echoing that Neto is defending CSL and therefore scum.

Neto's stances on DLA range on absurd.

In re: DLA argument, I said in the thread that I probably wasn't the best predictor of his flip due to the fact that we played together before, so I was being intentionally noncommittal because I didn't want that fact to adversely effect the town.

He is actually arguing that

because

he has meta on DLA, he is less likely to read DLA correctly
This seems almost slip-like - it only makes the slightest sense if DLA=scum with a scummy town meta.

Unvote, vote: ABR

He's not the best play today (That's DLA), but I want to use this vote to send a message that, well, I'd really like an answer to that question and to preserve my earlier reasoning about his possible scummishness.

Scum was in a tough corner almost the entire D1, with a longish time period of leading wagons CSL and DLA with hewitt as an option too. Neto posted this at one point during that period.
Neto never ever had elaborated for reasons why DLA would have been the best play. He said DLA is scummy as town and logical leaps are not a scumtell. He touched upon policy lynching at some point, and said he could vote DLA if it would not put him into danger, and moaned without substance ("I can't understand DLA's posts" type of style). And said e.g. this buddish thing:

Sure, I find it understandable that people are suspicious. I find farside suspicious. That's just life.

Can you do a bit better than this? Saying "Yeah, I'd find me scummy too" doesn't help us any....

And afterwards, when the biggest wave was passing, he never ever came close to voting DLA or bringing up points either.
The unceremonious forgetting of it happens already in Neto's very next post with a redirection

Unvote

I really am not looking to bandwagon ABR. My vote was just to accentuate a point. Since he seems to have completely ignored it, I guess it didn't work. I am getting suspicious of Saber, though, for his eagerness to hop onto that idea without putting in much thought.

(the next-next post is then a saber vote)

Then there's hewitt wagon stuff like this: DLA's very strongly on it. Pursuing hewitt for a good while vocally, coming in 4th on the wagon. At L-1 I think, he suddenly decides to drop it. Hewitt is scummy, and then bam he isn't. Let me show you the 2 posts hewitt posts that happen in the short time he changes his mind:

Since I AM at L-1 I would just like to state that if I am lynched ABR and DLA clearly need to go next, not necessarily in that order. I think a "town" that wouldn't lynch these two freshies after myself is a town that's definitely going to lose. And quite honestly, I would not mind if the town did lose. I don't even really care that it would count as a loss for me, it would probably just make me smile.

Oh yeah, and I'm a vanilla townie.

This is an incomprehensible trigger for a change of mind unless he gets scared of looking bad suddenly (and hewitt's claimed vanilla too). DLA at once goes:

I'm starting to retreat on Hewitt.. I think ABR went too far with this.

And

[...]

unvote; vote: Ellibereth

I don't like the the Yarmond Wagon

Defending a player who isn't here?? SERIOUSLY????

SCUM:
1. Ellibereth
2. Yarmond
3. ???
Anyway, I'm starting to think that hewitt might be town, and that ABR's pressure is the only thing making him making him seem scummy.

This makes even less sense since hewitt wasn't liking Yarmond wagon either earlier.

I only put a small part of the stuff that jumped from the page to me here, it's 3 AM. But it makes sense, I'm glad this game finally does reading it with all the flips in place, it's all the redirections, all the things making sense as distancing, ignoring etc, just the whole dynamics between each of Neto, CSL/Serial and DLA. If you need more to convince, I'll be happy to continue elaborating tomorrow.

vote: DLA

[Ojanen]

Just for the lulz, cause I vividly remember writing this in the middle of the night somewhere in Mongolia on D2

Also, no I don't want to lynch Serial or DLA blindly, thanks for listening, I have been very extroverted on my stance on them but I can shout it again:

I think DLA and SERIAL are prob town

Fucking BLIND

[Ojanen]

Ugh still awake.
Btw if you need further proof why this is an obvious redirection from needing to attack DLA as per logic of earlier post:

The unceremonious forgetting of it happens already in Neto's very next post with a redirection

Unvote

I really am not looking to bandwagon ABR. My vote was just to accentuate a point. Since he seems to have completely ignored it, I guess it didn't work. I am getting suspicious of Saber, though, for his eagerness to hop onto that idea without putting in much thought.

(the next-next post is then a saber vote)

then you can just keep in mind how many thousands of times saber had already bandwagoned for the sake of bandwagoning during D1 without Neto feeling no need to ever mention it until this point. I kid you not, he hadn't even brought it up.
(also I was wrong, it was not the very next post but a couple short ones down the line, which don't change the point though since they lead nowhere)

[DarkLightA]

unvote

[Ojanen]

Where is everyone, except for the wordless unvote from DLA? Come on guys, I've come to my senses, let's get to lynching the scum
My internet is down at home probably until Monday and I can't access the stream of consciousness notes I put down while reskimming.
Because especially Kise needs to reevaluate, I'll put up some stuff regardless about DLA making so much sense as scum.

Both Serial and Neto noticeably protect him; there is really nothing they do regards to him that wouldn't make sense from a wifom-free scumplay.

These are all stances from Serial on DLA's scumminess or related things I found relevant, and haven't left out anything negative, DLA is fairly in the backround in Serial's commentary of the game.

DLA and saber are both too random to call. They look like lynchbait, especially with the suspicion they get.

Convenient.

4) Your case against DLA. I'll give you some points for this bit, because it was more extensive than I appreciated with my reread. But it is still against an EASY TARGET. Now, if you were a player to go after anyone who looked 'scummy' according to the dummies guide to mafia, you would be voting CSL, not defending him. So I know you have it in you to defend players who are new or bad, and I know you have it in you to criticise other players for going after bad or new players. But I also know that for almost the entire game, those are EXACTLY THE PLAYERS YOU YOURSELF ARE GOING AFTER.

Chainsawish attack on Shotty.

I don't know what to think about DLA. He has been unfairly classified as a VI when he's not, although his posting style is gruff and lacking in explanation at times. Shotty being very aggressive towards him on D1 makes him more likely to be town in my eyes.

I don't get DLA going over to Hewitt. I don't think that Albert actually believed Hewitt based on the claim, because quite frankly I don't see much reason why scum would claim mason - it's demonstrably false and if it even required a counter claim (a 3-man voting block and no other masons coming forward would surely prevent that), all it does is expose a mason, which is hardly fantastic for scum. But whether that was his reason or not, Albert deifnitely seemed to dismiss Hewitt as a possibility for scum, and I'm going to trust that read. Plus Neto was shaping up to hammer Hewitt wasn't he?
Having said that, I'd like Hewitt to get in here, his lack of activity is a contrast to yesterday.
DLA - Did you read Ojanen vs kiku? Do you have an opinion on Shotty?

Finally, his continuing to push the case on DLA smells bad. I really, really doubt that DLA is scum, and Albert's town flip should have shaken that belief more strongly.

So here's where the flaking stops and the free passes stop. I am almost entirely sure that the scum team is Kise and Hewitt. The only other play that makes sense is one of the less prolific people like farside and DLA being scum and fanning the flames, but I didn't get that impression yesterday and still have prob town reads on farside and DLA.

The only weird thing about DLA I remember was him arguing with me dramatically about Neto's defending me and showing no signs of taking what I was saying on board and then within a day had switched his vote to someone else.

This is very true - smart of Serial to bring it up himself a day later to diminish it.

I have ot admit I tend to just throw up my hands when I read some of DLA's posts, but we're getting to the pointy end of the game so I can't afford to keep being complacent.
I am stunned that DLA is voting between myself and Kise. It seems to me to show an inconsistent view of the game. But then this recent vote wasn't opportunistic - a case wasn't really rising against me or anything like that. So the only benefit it could have had is if he's partners with Kise, but then if he's partners with Kise why isn't he pushing Hewitt, and why was he voting Kise for a while there?
I don't think it's necessarily scummy but I have no idea what th thought processes are. Expand on your vote please.

Fluffs into can't comprehend but not necessarily scummy when people are suspicious of DLA's sudden hop on and off of Kise.
-----

Netopalis, well, he treats DLA on a somewhat similar manner to CSL.
One of the more interesting things is ignoring at first DLA 74 (small omgussy case against farside that DLA gets heat from). A bit of heat - Neto ignores - bit more - Neto ignores - bit more - Neto suddenly says what is in underlying quote no. 4, despite DLA saying nothing new except that he meant what he said in the case, and that delayed reaction pattern of behaviour is a rather good scumbuddy tell in my experience.

I also don't like Darklight's play in this game, but I know from a previous game with him that he acts extremely, extremely scummily as town.
I haven't played any other games with him, so he may be a bit better in others...but in that one, he played so scummily that we were able to lynch him even after he claimed doc...

No, I'm afraid not. I haven't researched his meta otherwise, all I know is that as town he tends to make logical leaps which aren't necessarily warranted.

ABR: I would assume so. My point is that illogical leaps alone should not be considered indicative of scumminess on his part.

DLA...ugh. I know that last time we lynched him for play like this and he was the doc, but his play is just so...terrible...ugh.

I will vote DLA if the vote count shows that it would not put him in the danger zone.
Essentlally, I find that the whole "lynch me if you want" mentality is used by scum primarily. Due to the fact that scum's goal is survival, it is a way for them to appear town by making it look like they're playing against their goal - or for the town one. Overall, I really don't like his posts - even given that I played with him before and I posted the stuff about his meta.

To encourage him to put up better posts.

Sure, I find it understandable that people are suspicious. I find farside suspicious. That's just life.

Can you do a bit better than this? Saying "Yeah, I'd find me scummy too" doesn't help us any....

DLA...Ugh. What a mass of incomprehensibility. Please, in a few sentences, restate what you were trying to say in English and not in Swahili, Greek, Japanese, Latin, Martian or whatever that last post was in.

it's incomprehensible, not scummy.

As for my not arguing strongly on DLA, that's honestly been because I have prior experience with him and I don't feel that my reads are that accurate for that reason. I'm going to be a lot more likely to find failtown than I will be to find scum within his posts because I framed him in the newbie game that we played. Therefore, I prefer to let those who are more neutral in regards to him lead the way. I'm happy to lynch him, of course - I just don't feel qualified to add a lot to this discussion

And so on and so on, this is the scummy funny argument of "I have meta, thus I am less qualified to evaluate him."
There's the fact that looking at the suspicion dynamics, for a good while it's between DLA and CSL and somewhat lingeringly hewitt for lynch candidates/wagon leaders. Neto decides to go neither way and goes off on this tangent of Albert voting, at one point simultaneously saying that DLA is actually the best play but he wants to pressure Albert and then completely forgetting he ever said that and chasing after saber. farside totally calls it btw.

Meh, I'm still keeping my vote on Saber. He's exhibited every scumtell in the book, far beyond the bounds of bad play. I played in a game recently with him, and while he was pretty bad...he wasn't THIS bad. I think we can distinguish the two games and say that he looks scummy anyway, but in games in which he actually is scum, he looks EXTREMELY scummy.

Why is it that whenever DLA did something scummy you kept pointing out a game he was lynched and was the doctor but knowing how badly saber plays and has been pointed out you still want to lynch him?

Gotta go for now. What do you guys think? These are only some of the obvious parts, I have more thoughts on DLA's play regards Serial and the DLA/CSL relationship I could hack out later when I have access again, how much convincing do you guys need? Please look carefully at the point I brought up in my enlightenment post about DLA's meta on Neto and the game they shared in September.
DLA's trust/non-questioning on Neto this game is really really contradictory to his actions in and knowledge from that game. I think it's quite damning.

[dramonic]

The Thirtieigth Votecount: Final Four.

Ojanen (1): Kise
DLA (1): Ojanen

Not Voting (2): Ellibereth, DLA

With 4 alive it takes 3 to lynch.

deadline is in 4 days!

[Ellibereth]

I'm feeling like voting DLA now just to 100% confirm Kise.
Oj's stuff all look good at a glance. Awaiting response.

[Kise]

Don't have time at the moment, but maybe later tonight I can get a chance to look at this. DLA's quiet unvote is creepy, and suspect, but I've been saying for a while how I view him as a spontaneous player (not in a good way). It'll be hard for me to put aside what I think is his general playstyle, but, really, what kind of plan could SC have given him if he told DLA to bus him? Like did they think bussing Neto and SC would earn DLA towncred to survive?

[Ojanen]

Some more stuff for Kise on how DLA's actions make sense as scum with Serial and bussing then.

The trouble for them, once the flip happened, was that they were both quite connected to Neto.
I'll post a summary on one relevant bit.

D2 dawns. Serial starts off by directing attention/suspicion to Shotty, kiku and Kitty(=Kise). Serial and kiku argue.
DLA enters with a post

I hammered scum. What's the problem?

^^ that
-----

I highly doubt both scum were bussing.

Why?

Vote: Kikuchiyo

this, despite the fact that he had left off D1 accusing Serial.
-Scigatt comes in with a vote on Serial.
-Elli comes in with top suspects shotty and DLA.
-farside comes in with a vote on DLA and saying that CSL is also connected to Neto.
-Elli and kiku speculate that Neto wouldn't meta-defend both of the other scum so actively; kiku says it makes the choice all the more difficult. -farside expresses again could vote for either of DLA and Serial.
I pipe in with a post that I'm LA and put up 3 townies in my suspects list (if I'm right about DLA now), and there's some talk against Shotty but generally it's very much against DLA and Serial.
At this point DLA comes in again with

Sorry, I realize that I was illogical when I voted kik.. I would have hammered too..

unvote
vote: CS

Scummy play during the lynch plus the play during his conflict with the mason.

Can you see how reactional this looks it could be, looking at the momentums cooking up around them?
On the next page DLA pulls up quotes from Neto defending Serial and concludes

So, what do you guys think. I think that SC is obv-scum..

And next page Serial and DLA spend half a page arguing. Serial feigns great frustration.
Noise between me and kiku happens. The morning following the DLA/Serial arguing DLA comes back saying

Hmm.. The problem is that we're arguing with about 1/2 of the game as lurkers. Maybe we're all town..

and pulls up a late ABR post and votes hewitt (moreover, the majority of that quote would actually be incriminating towards CSL more than hewitt).
The next post we get from him features this, along with a scumlist that has Shotty and kiku at the bottom over Serial, and hewitt in the middle (hewitt suspicion didn't get echoed really):

I'm deciding to recide with SC, he seems to have a genuine reason, so I'm left with two. Shotty and Kiku.

Vote: Kikuchiyo

Please read page two leading up to page 32. Claiming that there's a chainsaw on page 2? Odd.

All the while the general pressure has derailed from DLA and somewhat from Serial.
kiku claims, DLA votes Shotty. Nothing more relevant until end of the day.

Can you see the dancing with the momentum, how it would have obvious scum motive?

Start the day attacking town, wait around a bit. Pressure concentrated relatively universally on either Serial or DLA and sometimes both. At that point bam, "wait, I would have hammered too actually", and vote Serial. Pull up the Neto quotes. Argue with him shortly and intensely; let him spell out a defence at the same time. Next morning switch directions. Momentum is moving to other directions too, never come back during the day to him.
It makes sense.

[Ellibereth]

Vote: DLA

Kise, if you're town don't hammer kthx.

[Ellibereth]

This is ovah: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 67#2125567
I see scum giving up!!!!

[Ojanen]

I saw that too
This is not the only time I've noticed he's lurking over Little Italy without posting since the unvote btw.

[DarkLightA]

Sorry, kinda forgot about this game =P Had to start up open 206.

Anyway, I'm still stuck here, not sure who to decide on. I'm vanilla myself, but if you don't wanna believe that then that's your problem.

Leaning towards Ojanen, but not enough to vote.

[Ellibereth]

Temp

Unvote

Sorry Oj, need to check something real fast.

[Ellibereth]

KISE DON'T HAMMER.

Vote: DLA

This is just to confirm Kise. Logic says DLA, my gut still points Oj tbh...

[Ojanen]

I hope Kise checks in soon to get certainty either way.
DLA, so my case against you changed your mind from being convinced it's Kise to stuck and leaning Oj?
In any case, can you remember on what gave you the townvibes on Neto on D1, DLA, as opposed to the game you had shared a month earlier with him?