Mini 922 - Mafia in Mo Town [Game Over]

[Espeonage]

If monkey flips scum I am suspicious of Hito. If Monkey is town then I don't mind his hesitation much.

[Lowell]

Um, guys. He's not town. Also 588 is hilarious and right.

[KittyMo]

Vote Count XIV

The Final Vote Count of Day 1

[7] MonkeyMan576 - (AlmasterGM, almightybob, Espeonage, xRECKONERx, Netopalis, Lowell, kyle99)

[3] Netopalis - (DeathRowKitty, Nikanor, Sakako)
[1] Sakako - (MonkeyMan576)
[1] kyle99 - (hitogoroshi)

[0] AlmasterGM - ()
[0] almightybob - ()
[0] DeathRowKitty - ()
[0] Espeonage - ()
[0] hitogoroshi - ()
[0] Lowell - ()
[0] Nikanor - ( )
[0] xRECKONERx - ()

[0]

Not Voting

- ()

With

12

alive, it`s

7

to lynch!

--------------------------

The sun begins to set, and the long first day comes to a close.

"Hurry up!" Says one of you. "It's getting dark. I want to get to sleep."

"He's obviously lying! Lynch him!"

"He's likely scum, but we should lynch someone else..."

"Look, I still think he's town. Just because he lied doesn't make him scum..."

"But look at how scummy he is!"

"LYNCH HIM! LYNCH HIM! LYNCH HIM! LYNCH HIM!" The mob cries out, taking no mercy.

"Any last words, Monkey?"

"I just wanted to help the town!"

"Yeah, he's scum. Kill him."

You string up and lynch MonkeyMan576, and...it turns out he really was just a

Vanilla Townie.

[/b]

----------------------------------

The sun goes down, and each of you dejectedly return to your houses, unsure if you'll survive the night.

It is now Night 1. Please send in all actions by Wednesday, February, 24, 2010, at 8:00AM Pacific Time.

[KittyMo]

It's 4AM. Just like every other morning at 4AM, AlmasterGM's roosters crow, and like every other morning at 4AM, Espeonage wonders why he doesn't just chop those stupid roosters' heads off so they'll shut up. And like any ordinary morning at 4AM, Espeonage decides he's too tired to kill the roosters and will do it later, and begins to snuggle back into bed. Upon remembering the horror of yesterday's events, he throws off the covers, yawns, and heads to the town square, meeting 9 other townsfolk.

"Someone's missing!" Cries out Lowell. "We'd better look for them!"

And so everyone begins running around wildly, hoping to find the 11th townsperson somewhere, anywhere. After a while of chaotic searching, everyone gets quiet in stunned silence as they hear someone screaming bloody murder.

Unfortunately, just like what only happens in the horror movies, this actually is a bloody murder. Everyone finds Netopalis standing in front of DeathRowKitty's house, staring in fear at his limp, dead body.

"Why is he laying out here?" hitogoroshi inquires. "What was he doing out of his house last night...?"

"Well, he's dressed in camoflage and...maybe he was out looking for something?" xRECKONERx wonders aloud.

"Or, perhaps, someone..." Sakako throws out.

DeathRowKitty,

Tracker

, Murdered Night 1.[/b]

Everyone decides you'll hold funerals for MonkeyMan576 and DeathRowKitty later - there's more important things to be done, such as lynching scum! The 10 of you return to the town square, ready for another long day of arguing, scumhunting, and maybe a bloody lynching!

Modnote: People involved in flavor was decided randomly by die roll and has no bearing on their role.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

It is now

Day 2

. The vote count has been cleared.

With

10

alive, it's

6

to lynch!

Deadline is at Wednesday, March 10, 2010 at 8:00:00 AM (San Diego time).

[Espeonage]

Hmm... I would like to just say. We should be careful. With the amount of people we started with we could well be in a stage where one stray vote could end in a mafia pile on if there are three scum.

[Espeonage]

ebwop I just realised I posted this in the wrong site. Don't laugh it's after 3am and I'm sick.
Surprisingly close to being correct. lol

[Espeonage]

This is what I meant to copy paste.

What the hell.

unvote, vote: monkey

This did come after alot of discussion but it still looks bad considering he was already scummy. What do others think?

[almightybob]

Fakeclaiming as Town is such fail. Goddamn.

I don't think we need to be overly worried about a speedlynch too much here esp, if it did happen the scum would out themselves and we would still have time to lynch them all.

For the points made yesterday,

Vote: Sakako

.

[xRECKONERx]

FoS: hito

Seriously, his end of D1 play was atrocious. He's worried about 'being dead weight for the town' and trying to hold up the MonkeyMan lynch. Which, I don't really

mind

considering the circumstances... however... I just can't get this nagging feeling out of my head that hito was scum trying to get town points by staying off the wagon.

Hito, did you

ever

go back and do your "wagon analysis and questioning of its prime suspects"? Also, I'll probably be going back and setting my sights on a certain 3-4 people. But I oh so anxiously await hito's reply.

[Nikanor]

Fakeclaiming as Town is such fail. Goddamn.

And you sound fake, scum.
I personally am unsurprised at Monkey's flip, but that might be because I can actually tell the difference between scummy and town-like behaviour, unlike half the people in this town. Lowell's 601 is particularly hilarious.
Anyway.
I'm going to start policy lynching anyone who votes another person stating their reason as 'Lynch all Liars.' LaL is a copout as either alignment. Scum think, 'Oh hay, I can easily get this person lynched now by stating LaL!' Town think, 'Oh hay, we can lynch this person without actually having to think! I've been using my brain too much lately, so let's shut that down for a while and instead just lynch this person without thinking about his motivation for lying, which could indicate at his alignment.'

Vote: hitogoroshi.

For supporting LaL despite being experienced enough to know that LaL is for scum. Also, as has already been said, 587 is an abomination.
After lynching hito today, let's lynch almightybob. He's scum, too.

(DeathRowKitty, Nikanor, Sakako)

These people are town. Don't vote for them, or you're scum like bob.

[Netopalis]

No time to comment now, aside from to say that Monkey should seriously reconsider his actions yesterday. They were absolutely pathetic.

[almightybob]

Hmm... believing
a) "Nikanor has amazing insight and is truly an asset to Town, as evidenced by him correctly calling MM's flip even though he was acting scummy as hell all of D1" or believing
b) "Nikanor is likely scum, as evidenced by him correctly calling MM's flip even though he was acting scummy as hell all of D1".
I wonder...

I'm going to start policy lynching anyone who votes another person stating their reason as 'Lynch all Liars.' LaL is a copout as either alignment.

I'm going to start policy lynching anyone who starts policy lynching people for using a tried and tested method like LAL. It's a copout.
See how far that gets us?

If MM had been acting pro-Town and then got caught in a lie and been lynched via LAL I would agree with you. But he had been scummy all day long. You were seemingly the only person who bought his claim-change. It's far more likely that you're scum who said "No guys, claimchanging is a towntell" so you could later accuse people on the MM wagon for going with a strong scum candidate.

Nobody on the MM wagon unvoted after he changed his claim. That means that, at the very least, the following people were happy to Lynch A Liar (because they posted after he changed claim, but did not unvote):
AlmasterGM, Espeonage, xRECKONERx, Netopalis, Lowell, kyle99.
Also hito, who posted, mentioned LAL, but did not vote.
Also myself. I didn't check back into the thread between MM's claim change and his lynch, but if I had, I would have been screaming for his lynch too.

If you want to go after hito for his "I want to look moar Town" posts, fine and good luck to you. I'll definitely be looking at that particular point again.
But unless you think all 8 of us are conspiring, then the LAL argument is inadmissible as a scumtell.




And I like how you repeatedly call me scum, with nothing to back it up. Case or GTFO.

No time to comment now, aside from to say that Monkey should seriously reconsider his actions yesterday. They were absolutely pathetic.

I take it this is a typo, since Monkey's no longer with us. Did you mean hito?

[Netopalis]

No, I meant that in future games, he should consider the reasons that he was lynched and not make the same mistakes.

[almightybob]

No, I meant that in future games, he should consider the reasons that he was lynched and not make the same mistakes.

Ah right. I thought it was about this game. Fair enough.

[Nikanor]

I'm going to start policy lynching anyone who starts policy lynching people for using a tried and tested method like LAL. It's a copout.

Yes, tried and tested. In every game I've been in where it has been tested, the lynchee has ALWAYS flipped town. That's why I'm going to start policy lynching for it.
Also, a townsperson's job is not only to find and lynch scum, but to also allow others to get an accurate town read on him. When you follow LaL, you're not allowing people to read you. That is why it should be a policy lynch.

Nikanor has amazing insight and is truly an asset to Town, as evidenced by him correctly calling MM's flip even though he was acting scummy as hell all of D1

This is correct. I love it when people acknowledge my truly outstanding townhunting skills.

If MM had been acting pro-Town and then got caught in a lie and been lynched via LAL I would agree with you. But he had been scummy all day long. You were seemingly the only person who bought his claim-change. It's far more likely that you're scum who said "No guys, claimchanging is a towntell" so you could later accuse people on the MM wagon for going with a strong scum candidate.

I just happen to be able to tell the difference between anti-town and scummy. Monkey was not scummy. In fact, I said before he had claimed that I did not find him scummy enough to garner my vote. His claimchange just made me think even more that he was town.

Nobody on the MM wagon unvoted after he changed his claim. That means that, at the very least, the following people were happy to Lynch A Liar (because they posted after he changed claim, but did not unvote):
AlmasterGM, Espeonage, xRECKONERx, Netopalis, Lowell, kyle99.
Also hito, who posted, mentioned LAL, but did not vote.
Also myself. I didn't check back into the thread between MM's claim change and his lynch, but if I had, I would have been screaming for his lynch too.

Three are scum, the rest are just bad townies. I'm going to say it's a Neto, bob, hito team at this point.

Also bob, I'd like to know why you waited until I attacked you to attack me. I'm sure that if you were actually worried about scumhunting, you would have brought these things up sooner.

[xRECKONERx]

@Nik: you believe all three scum are on that wagon?

[almightybob]

Three are scum, the rest are just bad townies. I'm going to say it's a Neto, bob, hito team at this point.

You still haven't produced a case against me.

Also bob, I'd like to know why you waited until I attacked you to attack me. I'm sure that if you were actually worried about scumhunting, you would have brought these things up sooner.

Sooner when? The last time I checked the thread before MM's lynch was on my last post before it - Friday 19th Feb, 4:10AM. Next time I read the thread, MM's already dead (Sunday 21st Feb, 11:16AM, just over 48 hours later). Considering Day 2 has only just started, this has been the first real opportunity I would have had to bring anything up.

Your prediction only becomes scummy once it's shown to be accurate against all intuition, which to me shows foreknowledge. Therefore Day 2 would be my first opportunity to bring that particular point up.

In any event, the post that set my alarm bells ringing the most was 609. My attack comes in post 611. Hardly a long wait. And if you'd called anyone else scum without providing any semblance of a case, I'd be attacking about that. Just because you happen to apparently arbitrarily pick me does not make my attack retaliation.


Incidentally Nika, if using policy lynches like LAL is not pro-Town behaviour, please explain this:

I'm probably going to go with good ol' Lynch All Lurkers at the end, as hypocritical as that is.

[Nikanor]

You still haven't produced a case against me.

My case is that you're a lurker. When you said, 'Fakeclaiming as town is such fail,' I detected a fakeness in your tone. You also waited for me to attack you to actually scumhunt. That is a big scumtell in my books.

Considering Day 2 has only just started, this has been the first real opportunity I would have had to bring anything up.

I meant your first post of the day. You could have mentioned all these things against me, but you instead went for a Sak vote. You could have actually done something useful, but instead, you went for a Sak vote. See where I'm getting at? You didn't actually do any (real or fake) scumhunting until AFTER I attacked you today, which is scummy.

In any event, the post that set my alarm bells ringing the most was 609. My attack comes in post 611. Hardly a long wait. And if you'd called anyone else scum without providing any semblance of a case, I'd be attacking about that. Just because you happen to apparently arbitrarily pick me does not make my attack retaliation.

I didn't say it was a long wait, did I? Also, my case is above, and not arbitrary at all.

Incidentally Nika, if using policy lynches like LAL is not pro-Town behaviour, please explain this:

Lynch all Liars is a copout. Lynch all Lurkers is pro-town.

@Nik: you believe all three scum are on that wagon?

I do, if you give hito an honourary spot on the wagon (he said that he wanted to lynch Monkey). It's not really that useful to say, though, since I know I'm town and I've already said that I have a town read on Sak.
What do you think about it, Reck?

[xRECKONERx]

I think MM was so freeeeekin scummy, its a big gamble to assume all scum were on his wagon.

[hitogoroshi]

FoS: hito

Seriously, his end of D1 play was atrocious. He's worried about 'being dead weight for the town' and trying to hold up the MonkeyMan lynch. Which, I don't really

mind

considering the circumstances... however... I just can't get this nagging feeling out of my head that hito was scum trying to get town points by staying off the wagon.

Despite what Nik may tell you, you do not get town points staying OFF the wagon of a fakeclaimer. Look at this case. There are literally two living players who were not on the Monkey wagon. It's not like this lynch was something only scum would support.

Hito, did you

ever

go back and do your "wagon analysis and questioning of its prime suspects"? Also, I'll probably be going back and setting my sights on a certain 3-4 people. But I oh so anxiously await hito's reply.

Well I couldn't exactly do my questioning thanks to

Kyle, the Magic, Hammer Loving Wonder Penguin!

shooting up the chance to use the before/after lynch decision point. (Incidentally, this is what really peeves me about people calling my wanting to stall scummy - clearly the worry that a hammer would happen before I could do wagon analysis and talk to people about their view was a valid concern because IT HAPPENED, and really I should have yelled it in big, red letters.) But yes, I did look at his wagon, and I suppose I can still ask people about what they thought, though now that the town know as much as the scum about Monkey's alignment it's not gonna be nearly as useful.

Specifically, I'm interested in people who continued to vote for Monkey while he was a claimed JOAT. Nik has the efficacy of Lynch all Liars and Lynch all Lurkers backwards - that is, the former is enough to lynch off of itself while the latter is at least somewhat circumstantial (though in many circumstances I'm happy with a lurker lynch) - but that's a subject for a later post lest this become too walltastic. Preview to a point I'm sure Nik will make me expand out: when scum can get a reward (WIFOM defense) without a risk (since they 'switch back to VT', which can't be validated in anyway) townies have no good reason to fakeclaim and giving an allowance for them to do so is one that will be used by scum far, far more than town. It's basicially the inverse of Hanlon's Razor.

So we start with Monkey 471, where he claims JOAT. At the time, AlmasterGM, almightybob, Espeonage, Sakako, xRECKONERx, and Netopalis are voting for him.

Reck and Neto unvote.

Lowell votes him.

Espeon holds his vote.

Sakako unvotes.

Neto: You just don't lynch a claimed PR.

Almaster holds his vote.

Reck revotes.

Neto revotes.

Then some words happen but nothing major wagon-wise until he recants his claim.

Gonna go play League of Legends with some friends so I'll pick this up later. My take on the wagon analysis is that it's town points for Sakako, scum points for Neto, Espeon, and Lowell, and null points for Almaster and Reck. I'll explain how I got to those conclusions from this data when I get back (it'll be tonight sometime.) I know that as it stands this is a touch IioA - trust me, the analysis is coming. :p

Bob - were you ever in this thread between Monkey's JOAT claim and his recanting of it? I didn't see you but I was skimming.

Happy Scumday! ~KittyMo

[almightybob]

Lynch all Liars is a copout. Lynch all Lurkers is pro-town.

Why?

Specifically, I'm interested in people who continued to vote for Monkey while he was a claimed JOAT
[...]
It's basicially the inverse of Hanlon's Razor.

This paragraph is full of win. Goodposting.

Bob - were you ever in this thread between Monkey's JOAT claim and his recanting of it? I didn't see you but I was skimming.

No. As I said above, my last post was on the Friday. I didn't have time to check the thread at all until Sunday, and when I came back, MM has claimed JOAT, switched his claim, and been lynched.

If you want to check, I keep a list of all my games on my wiki page. You can see that for the three I'm in currently, I didn't post in any of them between Friday 19th and Sunday 21st.

[Lowell]

So hitero just shows up to call out those voting for monkey, after he fakeclaimed, then admitted his claim was fake. Sorry, not taking the blame for monkey being an idiot. Those strategically avoiding the whole situation (ahem, hitero) look much worse, IMO.

[Nikanor]

Despite what Nik may tell you, you do not get town points staying OFF the wagon of a fakeclaimer. Look at this case. There are literally two living players who were not on the Monkey wagon. It's not like this lynch was something only scum would support.

I wasn't giving you town points. I was giving you scum points. Try to pay attention. You were technically on the Monkey wagon anyway.

Preview to a point I'm sure Nik will make me expand out: when scum can get a reward (WIFOM defense) without a risk (since they 'switch back to VT', which can't be validated in anyway) townies have no good reason to fakeclaim and giving an allowance for them to do so is one that will be used by scum far, far more than town. It's basicially the inverse of Hanlon's Razor.

EXCEPT!
>WIFOM ALERT!<
The current site meta would mean that Monkey would be absolutely eaten alive for going back on a PR claim. So much so that the fact is that if he was scum, he would not have bothered going back on the claim and would instead have waited until the next day. Make sense?
>END WIFOM<

Why?

Read above.

[Nikanor]

Oh, and

Unvote. Vote: almightybob.

[almightybob]

Why?

Read above.

*reads above*

Your reasons that LAL is scummy (correct me if I'm wrong)

:

1)

LaL is a copout as either alignment. Scum think, 'Oh hay, I can easily get this person lynched now by stating LaL!' Town think, 'Oh hay, we can lynch this person without actually having to think! I've been using my brain too much lately, so let's shut that down for a while and instead just lynch this person without thinking about his motivation for lying, which could indicate at his alignment.'

-

Applies equally to Lynch All Lurkers.

2)

In every game I've been in where it has been tested, the lynchee has ALWAYS flipped town. That's why I'm going to start policy lynching for it.

-

How many games would that be? And more importantly, were the people using LAL as justification scum or Town?

3)

Also, a townsperson's job is not only to find and lynch scum, but to also allow others to get an accurate town read on him. When you follow LaL, you're not allowing people to read you. That is why it should be a policy lynch.

-

Again, applies equally to Lynch All Lurkers, or any lynching policy.

Your reasons that Lynch All Lurkers is pro-Town

:
- none given.



You haven't provided a single argument showing LAL is scummy which doesn't equally apply to Lynch All Lurkers. They're just general arguments against policy decisions, which you've chosen to apply to LAL to further your cause here.