Pick Your Power II - Looks like the wine is gone (SCUM WIN)

[Fate]

Official Vote Count

Players needed to lynch: 7

Hoopla

- 1 - Socrates - (L-6)

Socrates

- 5 - Ellibereth, Jack, The1fifi, Fate, DocPotter - (L-2)

Players not voting: curiouskarmadog, Devotress, Faraday, Hoopla, StrangerCoug, TonyMontana, wolframnhart

Earlier I said you had one of the better reasons for voting me. Now I'm analyzing my wagon after a good portion of it was revealed town.

You are now one of the scummier people on that wagon.

Also, I could've sworn that was a hammer. I'm already policy lynching anyone who buys his "town gambit" for one second... Fakeclaim cop and claim a guilty on someone you hope is guilty? AND claim an innocent on someone you have no idea about? All for the purpose of drawing 1 NK?

K Socrates,

is what I would say except I did most of the work for you.

QFT. If you came up with this gambit all by yourself you should be proud. Especially if you're governed and this game is already over. Come on just tell us...

[Hoopla]

I don't know if lynch Socrates is the best town move right now. It feels like we're just playing into scum's hands. They would have known what was going to happen if Socrates did this - I can tell you now, it wasn't just a, 'hey, i'm cop lol! lets lynch pom' thing. There must be a reason why they are doing this.

Like I said, if we are playing into scum's hands it is already too late. SC and DP just seem like scum trying to work your theory against us, which makes me hopeful Socrates is the vig.

I'll vote Socrates when I get back from work tonight.

But why would scum do this cop fakeclaim play if it didn't improve their chances of winning? If Socrates really was the vig, I'd expect more people picking up my arguments (or creating some of their own) about why Socrates isn't a good play and probably isn't the vig. The town consensus seems to be that Socrates is scum, but have no idea if he's the vig or not.

I'm saying we need to deal with this later and find the scum vig now, otherwise it will just be two more town kills. I don't think your argument for Socrates possibly being the vig is too solid. As you said yourself, it just seems like hope more than anything, which is not enough. Logically, it doesn't make sense for Socrates to be scum and put himself in this situation.

If Socrates is the vig, it means scum also have the cop, because Socrates must have known cop was a safe claim. If this was the case, why not claim cop with innocents (maybe even innocents on corpses), or even a guilty on a scumbuddy? He would have known claiming a fake-guilty is only a short-term survival strategy, which isn't anywhere near optimum scumvig play.

[Hoopla]

In my opinion, if the governor is town, they need to claim now, so we can assess if they are likely town or not. This gives us a better understanding of how urgently we need to find the vig, and how long we have left. If we can safely assume the governor is town, then it gives us a bit more security.

What does everyone else think? Having the governor hidden only benefits scum, because if the governor is town, they are not going to use the power anyway. So, even by outing the governor we don't lose anything by it claiming.

[The1fifi]

@SC

Do you really want the scum to know that you're a town bomb?

Wut.

Is this such an obscure role that I have to put it in big red letters? If the scum knows you're a bomb, they'll likely get around it by not NK'ing you. It is also very possible that they'll try to get you mislynched so they can take out two townies in one day.

Socrates fakeclaiming to try to draw the NK makes sense except for the role faked.

[StrangerCoug]

@SC

Do you really want the scum to know that you're a town bomb?

Wut.

Is this such an obscure role that I have to put it in big red letters? If the scum knows you're a bomb, they'll likely get around it by not NK'ing you. It is also very possible that they'll try to get you mislynched so they can take out two townies in one day.

Socrates fakeclaiming to try to draw the NK makes sense except for the role faked.

I addressed the bold already. I would have understood if Socrates claimed doctor and picked people who survived each night as claimed targets to try to get NK'd, but the cop fakeclaim gambit backfired when a mislynch happened because of it.

[The1fifi]

you re right, that gambit claiming doctor would be a great gambit. I have to add it to my book.

[Jack]

In my opinion, if the governor is town, they need to claim now, so we can assess if they are likely town or not. This gives us a better understanding of how urgently we need to find the vig, and how long we have left. If we can safely assume the governor is town, then it gives us a bit more security.

What does everyone else think? Having the governor hidden only benefits scum, because if the governor is town, they are not going to use the power anyway. So, even by outing the governor we don't lose anything by it claiming.

Isn't townie governor saving themselves in lylo potentially a good play for us? I don't think massclaim is good for the town today.

If scum have governor then they basically win.

Soc is the only person we can lynch that we

know

won't lose the us the game. In the number one spot he has a very good chance of being vig too, especially since he only claimed cop when it looked like he was going to be lynched.

[Hoopla]

Isn't townie governor saving themselves in lylo potentially a good play for us? I don't think massclaim is good for the town today.

If scum have governor then they basically win.

Soc is the only person we can lynch that we

know

won't lose the us the game. In the number one spot he has a very good chance of being vig too, especially since he only claimed cop when it looked like he was going to be lynched.

No, it isn't a good play for a townie, because we don't know if it's a townie or scum that has governed themself. Then because we get no death, scum get another round of night kills - enough to win the game.

~~

Socrates is the 'safe' option for lynch, because we're lynching scum, but I don't understand why scum would do this to their vigilante. If Socrates isn't the vig, I don't understand why scum wouldn't take vig as number 1 in the first place. A reason for that is Fate being the vig (scum having picks 1 and 2). But then it isn't doesn't make sense again because of Fate's reaction to his wagon.

So if either of those options aren't true, the minimum spot vig could be is 7th. But if it's dropped that far, it could feasibly drop anywhere down to 14th or so. But, why would scum do that, rather than just taking it first? Because we know the vig is almost certainly scum, and Socrates is scum. It's like a circle of logic where we have to guess which irrational scum decision is the most rational, because one of them has to be true.

[StrangerCoug]

I should mention that the bomb is somebody above me, Hoopla, so one of Socrates, Fate, and Jack has to be it. (In my opinion, it is least likely Jack.)

[The1fifi]

And i should mention the vig is someone above me.

[Socrates]

Strange Soc, how your list and Fate's claim list work with each other.

Jack, StrangerCoug, The1fifi, DocPotter

fifi, Fate, Doc, Jack, and Faraday

Three people the same. The difference, Devotress and Faraday and Fate.

Some sort of desperate attempt to deflect from Fate no doubt.

As I said. Good try Soc. No cigar.

Drat. You got me. Fate is my scumbuddy.

unvote, vote:Fate

I should mention that the bomb is somebody above me, Hoopla, so one of Socrates, Fate, and Jack has to be it. (In my opinion, it is least likely Jack.)

You fool! You have doomed us all!

(Stranger is obv town BTW.)

[Hoopla]

Pipe down with the wifom games Socrates, you're causing a scene.

[Ellibereth]

EVERYONE SHUT UP UNTIL AFTER THE FLIP.

[Socrates]

I don't know if lynch Socrates is the best town move right now. It feels like we're just playing into scum's hands. They would have known what was going to happen if Socrates did this - I can tell you now, it wasn't just a, 'hey, i'm cop lol! lets lynch pom' thing. There must be a reason why they are doing this.

Like I said, if we are playing into scum's hands it is already too late. SC and DP just seem like scum trying to work your theory against us, which makes me hopeful Socrates is the vig.

I'll vote Socrates when I get back from work tonight.

But why would scum do this cop fakeclaim play if it didn't improve their chances of winning? If Socrates really was the vig, I'd expect more people picking up my arguments (or creating some of their own) about why Socrates isn't a good play and probably isn't the vig. The town consensus seems to be that Socrates is scum, but have no idea if he's the vig or not.

I'm saying we need to deal with this later and find the scum vig now, otherwise it will just be two more town kills. I don't think your argument for Socrates possibly being the vig is too solid. As you said yourself, it just seems like hope more than anything, which is not enough. Logically, it doesn't make sense for Socrates to be scum and put himself in this situation.

If Socrates is the vig, it means scum also have the cop, because Socrates must have known cop was a safe claim. If this was the case, why not claim cop with innocents (maybe even innocents on corpses), or even a guilty on a scumbuddy? He would have known claiming a fake-guilty is only a short-term survival strategy, which isn't anywhere near optimum scumvig play.

Now, I might be in a biased position here, but I think the "lynch anyone but Socrates" plan makes a lot of sense. Why aren't people listening to Hoopla more?

[Socrates]

EVERYONE SHUT UP UNTIL AFTER THE FLIP.

They're gonna be waiting a long time, seeing as how I haven't been hammered yet.

I'm scheduled to have a presidential pardon soon anyway, so I'm not worri -- OH SNAP I SHOULDN"T HAVE SAID THAT.

A few pages back Fate said I was one of the scummy votes on his original wagon, even though earlier in the game he said I was one of the better votes on his wagon. Thought that merited pointing out.


Anyhow, are we waiting more time to get night actions in, or is it safe to throw a vote up on socrates? I have a very hard time believing this was the townie gambit he claims.

I also have a bridge in San Fransisco to sell you, but you wouldn't believe that either, would you? Is it that hard for you to trust others Dev? I'M ONLY TRYING TO MAKE YOU HAPPY!

(Devotress is also scum. I mean come on, this is the culmination of all of her contributions to the game? Not to mention she is also hesitating to vote me, which is turbo scummy as per my previous posts.)

[DocPotter]

True, I hadn't considered the govenor killing off a lynch on the vig to give the extra day of NK's

Still doesn't change that we need socrates votes.

[Fate]

True, I hadn't considered the govenor killing off a lynch on the vig to give the extra day of NK's

Still doesn't change that we need socrates votes.

WOW ISNT THIS A COMPLETE 180 HUH SCUM?

[Fate]

I should mention that the bomb is somebody above me, Hoopla, so one of Socrates, Fate, and Jack has to be it. (In my opinion, it is least likely Jack.)

Directed at Hoopla, hmm? I smell scum trying to buy Socrates more time (bomb is above me, since Socrates claimed it, it has to be him!) What makes you sure Jack is the least likely?

Also, @whoever, Socrates didn't fakeclaim Doctor because the scum don't have the doctor this game, so he would've been scared of a counter-claim.

And i should mention the vig is someone above me.

Will look at this again if Socrates flips non-vig.

[Socrates]

I should mention that the bomb is somebody above me, Hoopla, so one of Socrates, Fate, and Jack has to be it. (In my opinion, it is least likely Jack.)

Directed at Hoopla, hmm? I smell scum trying to buy Socrates more time (bomb is above me, since Socrates claimed it, it has to be him!) What makes you sure Jack is the least likely?

Also, @whoever, Socrates didn't fakeclaim Doctor because the scum don't have the doctor this game, so he would've been scared of a counter-claim.

And i should mention the vig is someone above me.

Will look at this again if Socrates flips non-vig.

Why the hell would I draft doctor? Its a nearly useless role, especially if the scum end up with the empowerer. Drafting doctor with the first pick would have been a utter waste of the pick, and it would be an obvious fake-claim.

[Fate]

But why would scum do this cop fakeclaim play if it didn't improve their chances of winning? If Socrates really was the vig, I'd expect more people picking up my arguments (or creating some of their own) about why Socrates isn't a good play and probably isn't the vig. The town consensus seems to be that Socrates is scum, but have no idea if he's the vig or not.

I'm saying we need to deal with this later and find the scum vig now, otherwise it will just be two more town kills. I don't think your argument for Socrates possibly being the vig is too solid. As you said yourself, it just seems like hope more than anything, which is not enough. Logically, it doesn't make sense for Socrates to be scum and put himself in this situation.

If Socrates is the vig, it means scum also have the cop, because Socrates must have known cop was a safe claim. If this was the case, why not claim cop with innocents (maybe even innocents on corpses), or even a guilty on a scumbuddy? He would have known claiming a fake-guilty is only a short-term survival strategy, which isn't anywhere near optimum scumvig play.

Here's the breakdown again.

I agree:
-Socrates is acting oddly. There were much better fakeclaims to stay alive longer as the vig (claiming innocents on dead people, etc.)
-It is getting more and more likely that scum have governor
-Socrates has all but given up at this point, definitely not optimum scumplay.

My points:
-So what? What if we do magically out the real vig? The governor will just stop

his

lynch.
-Realistically, we won't find the real vig. Therefore we have a high chance of mislynching and losing automatically
-I think scum are playing into heavily WIFOM right now: "You can't lynch me! I have a presidential pardon *wink wink*" We can't be afraid of roles we have no proof of being in the game (unless someone wants to claim vanilla going for Governor, but even then I'd take it with some salt as scum trying to diffuse a Socrates lynch).
-Let's lynch Socrates and see what happens, that's all we can do at this point.

[Fate]

Why the hell would I draft doctor? Its a nearly useless role, especially if the scum end up with the empowerer. Drafting doctor with the first pick would have been a utter waste of the pick, and it would be an obvious fake-claim.

Look, I know how it feels to claim scum and go crazy with power. I did it when I got flavor-scanned guilty in a theme game.

But you already crossed the line from, "last minute gambit to save your hide" to "mwhahah I got you good town!" in your first post. None of what you say has any bearing right now, unless you want to self-hammer or something. Especially if you really have the governor.

[Hoopla]

I agree:
-It is getting more and more likely that scum have governor

My points:
-So what? What if we do magically out the real vig? The governor will just stop

his

lynch.
-Realistically, we won't find the real vig. Therefore we have a high chance of mislynching and losing automatically

1) Lets wait until everyone checks in again before make such assessments. I'll bold this request -

if you're the town governor, you must claim now.

2) Well, if we don't find the vig today we will likely lose. If we don't find it tomorrow we almost definitely lose. If nobody claims governor, then we know for sure this is the case.
3) If you think this is a no-hope chance for the town, why not listen to me and follow my orders, and let me try and give the town a chance at winning this game. I think I'm one of the one's taking it most seriously, and could do some damage if I have people to back me up. I will likely die tonight, and I hope the town just doesn't give up, so I'm staking everything on finding the vig.

And at the moment, I think it's one of the three players in the only untouched group - StrangerCoug, Fifi, wolf.

[The1fifi]

And at the moment, I think it's one of the three players in the only untouched group - StrangerCoug, Fifi, wolf.

I just soft claimed vanilla, after going for vig -.-

[StrangerCoug]

I should mention that the bomb is somebody above me, Hoopla, so one of Socrates, Fate, and Jack has to be it. (In my opinion, it is least likely Jack.)

Directed at Hoopla, hmm? I smell scum trying to buy Socrates more time (bomb is above me, since Socrates claimed it, it has to be him!) What makes you sure Jack is the least likely?

Socrates flat-out claimed bomb and your Day 1 actions (specifically, your refusal to claim after a weak wagon on you) indicate that you could be. Nothing I can recall Jack doing is suggestive of him being a bomb.

And at the moment, I think it's one of the three players in the only untouched group - StrangerCoug, Fifi, wolf.

That's impossible if both The1fifi and I are telling the truth. We both implied that we tried for a role and got beaten to it. I tried for bomb and didn't get it, leaving me as VT, and likewise for The1fifi trying to get the vig role; wolframnhart is below The1fifi.

[Fate]

I agree:
-It is getting more and more likely that scum have governor

My points:
-So what? What if we do magically out the real vig? The governor will just stop

his

lynch.
-Realistically, we won't find the real vig. Therefore we have a high chance of mislynching and losing automatically

1) Lets wait until everyone checks in again before make such assessments. I'll bold this request -

if you're the town governor, you must claim now.

2) Well, if we don't find the vig today we will likely lose. If we don't find it tomorrow we almost definitely lose. If nobody claims governor, then we know for sure this is the case.
3) If you think this is a no-hope chance for the town, why not listen to me and follow my orders, and let me try and give the town a chance at winning this game. I think I'm one of the one's taking it most seriously, and could do some damage if I have people to back me up. I will likely die tonight, and I hope the town just doesn't give up, so I'm staking everything on finding the vig.

And at the moment, I think it's one of the three players in the only untouched group - StrangerCoug, Fifi, wolf.

I'm listening. I think Jack said this before: if scum have the governor they aren't going to claim it. If town has it, they are best left until a lylo situation, and them claiming only satisfied our fears of not lynching Socrates, which we should do without fear anyway.

SC and Fifi just denied Vig, as expected. If Jack is the vig, he'll deny it. If Wolf is the vig, Fifi lied to throw off suspicion AND Wolf will deny it.

Seriously, in a game where you can claim VT reasonably after this many flips, how do you propose we find the vig?

1. Lynch SC, fifi is telling the truth and it is either Jack or SC (or Socrates)
2. Lynch Jack, see above
3. Lynch Me, see above
4. Lynch Wolf for no reason other than he could be lying
^All these situations a mislynch will lead to instant loss