Mini 911 - Mike's Pizzeria Mafia (Game Over)

[Seven]

In this game, the most interesting thing to me is that Seven keeps answering questions directed to others, but only a few others.

Care to point out where and who? (Especially if this is actually an element to your top secret case against me.)

Intuition is effectively pattern recognition. Pattern recognition is not illogical. Thanks for playing.

Definition of intuition according to whatever came up on google (if google isn't reliable enough for you, get a dictionary... I don't believe in paper).

The act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes

I'm starting to think Shiv is cute. I want to pinch his cheeks.

Again, I know you are giddy about the prospect of piggybacking on Idiotking's (admittedly feeble) efforts, but I am not continuing with this discussion here. That said, tunneling is not a fucking scum tell, a scum tell being something scum do considerably more often than townies do.

I just love it when people say something and then use "that being said" to completely go against whatever the hell they just said.

"I'm not going to continue discussion by responding to your stupid comment that is unworthy of being responded to... that being said, here's my response to your stupid comment that is unworthy of being responded to..."

"I'm not an anti-semite! That being said, I really hate jews..."

I am extremely frustrated by (1) stubborn refusal to understand the concept of scum tell

What do you consider scum tells? So far everything that is conventionally considered a scum tell you have said doesn't count. You're also fine with going solely on gut. The things you do that you think could be scum tells get a disclaimer like "Oh hey I know this is really scummy, but since I'm aware this is scummy and would never do this as scum then obv I'm not scum!"

Seven, STOP LURKING. Or at least have the sense to hide your online status.

I'm not lurking, I'm reading through the fucking massive walls of shit you guys have been writing. Give me a break.

[Shiverer]

Probably V/LA Friday through Sunday, though I might be able to get a little hotel wireless.

Unvote.

Definition of intuition according to whatever came up on google (if google isn't reliable enough for you, get a dictionary... I don't believe in paper).

The act or faculty of knowing or sensing without the use of rational processes

The definition of intuition according to people who know what they are talking abou—EDUCATE YOURSELF BEFORE TRYING TO BE CLEVER, YEEAAUUUGHH.

So far everything that is conventionally considered a scum tell you have said doesn't count.

Pretty sure tunneling is not conventionally considered a scum tell, at this point in time. Could be wrong.

I don't have a little index card duct-taped to my computer listing a bunch of wiki tells. Scum tells are almost always situational. Games are dynamic and scum don't just robotically plant scum tells to fill a quota. They adapt to avoid committing currently widely known scum tells. I can't think of a universal scum tell off the top of my head, other than . . . claiming scum.

You're also fine with going solely on gut.

There have been two games where my gut instinctively pegged two out of three mafiosi and my reluctance to trust it lost me the game. You can ask Idiotking about one of them.

I'm not lurking, I'm reading through the fucking massive walls of shit you guys have been writing. Give me a break.

Taste of your own medicine, huh?

[Seven]

I don't mind reading through massive walls of text. I just don't like being called a lurker when it takes me more than 10 minutes to get through them.

I'm not going to debate what intuition is. THIS BEING SAID, these "patterns" seem to me a lot like what we commonly call "scum tells". Which you are pretty much saying aren't reliable. But you are also saying your gut IS reliable. So, let me think this out...

*ahem*

Scum tells = patterns = scum avoid them = unreliable
Gut = intuition = patterns = scum tells? = scum avoid them = unreliable

So as far as I can tell you're relying on neither gut nor on scum tells... but saying you're relying on both while simultaneously claiming they are unreliable for hunting scum.

If you can't figure out who is scum through these two methods, how can you find out who is scum?

You can't.

But if you already know who is scum, you don't need to find out who is scum.

See what I'm getting at here?

[Thor665]

You still asked for other's cases prior to providing yours under duress.

That. Is. Not. A. Scum. Tell.

Get it through your head.

I didn't say it was a scum tell. I disagreed with the way and reasons behind your dismissal of his comment. I think dismissing the concept using such poor logic is potentially scummy and wanted to see your reaction when asked to clarify the poor logic (my read is of another dismissal via a straw man of my actual point). I've also, in the past, disagreed with your basic concept of wanting to get other people to post their cases first - and am still waiting to hear why it needed/should be done that way.

Also, I may or may not be "opportunistically" leaping on you, but I've commented for some time that I consider SeerPenguin one of the scummiest players and that's whose slot you took over so I might be so bold as to suggest I'm poking on you because I have and did find your slot scummy. Last I checked you and I had been doing a bit of back and forth since you showed up.

All that said, I am pleased you're taking a V/LA for a little bit - you're not helping whatever team you're on by being so worked up and, in the final analysis, you should theoretically be enjoying your time here (and also your attitude is harshing my mellow dude). I'll accept that it's possible certain players here are too newbie to understand your concepts (certainly I am quite new and will happily admit to being denser then I would like) but I would note that if your concepts are so proper and good then you ought to be able to explain to the new guys why and what we're being so dense about without exploding into cursing and ranting at us over them. Either educate us on your concepts or get over us not understanding them.

[Thor665]

Also, Shiverer - what caused the evilsnail unvote? Did he do something to remove your gut read?

[evilsnail]

Some interesting posts in the last few pages. Idiotking's Jack vote doesn't sit very well with me. I don't see how Jack's reliance on gut is an indicator of his alignment either way. It's pretty easy to verify that he defends this opinion generally.

FOS: Idiotking

The fact that you disagree with someone doesn't mean that they're scummy. This fallacy also seems to lie behind some of the mutual Idiotking/Shiverer voting. I don't either of these votes were productive. Something about Shiverer's frustration on the last page feels genuine to me, though, so I'm inclined to believe him.

[Dragonfly13]

Idiotking and Shiverer need to calm the

FUCK

down before there's

hell

to pay! Play the

damn

game, but don't turn it into a trollfest or a flamewar, mmkay? This will be your ONLY warning.

Oh yeah, and if any of you would like Idiotking modkilled, just PM me, and it'll be handled.

I swear to god

, IK, if you don't start treating my players with some level of decency and respect, you'll be on my blacklist. And that's something that's very, VERY hard to get off of. That goes for you too, Shiv. Try to cut back on the

fuck

ing swearing, and general

spewing of bullshit

at other players for no other reason than to pick a fight. Got it? Good.

[Dragonfly13]

Votecount #18

Shiverer (3) - Seven, Idiotking, Parama
DeathRowKitty (2) - Thor665, evilsnail
Seven (1) - DeathSauce
DeathSauce (1) - DeathRowKitty
Parama (1) - Jack

Not Voting (2) - Lastsurvivor, Shiverer


With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.
Deadline: 2:00PM U.S. Central Time, Monday, February 22, 2010

[Thor665]

Some interesting posts in the last few pages. Idiotking's Jack vote doesn't sit very well with me. I don't see how Jack's reliance on gut is an indicator of his alignment either way. It's pretty easy to verify that he defends this opinion generally.

Idiotking is voting Shiverer - not Jack.

[evilsnail]

Unvote

Vote Jack

I don't think I even have to explain my vote this time. The reasons are obvious.

[Thor665]

Lost that one in the shuffle of the page explosions.

You seem to consider the page rage as somewhat absolving of Shiverer yet choose to FOS Idiotking on actions therein. Any clarification to offer on why he seems less trustworthy after it all?

[evilsnail]

I don't know if I would say that I believe the page rage absolves Shiverer. Frankly, I think that whole debate made both of them seem scummier. Neither of their votes seem motivated by a desire to catch scum, but rather by a desire to get rid of those who disagree with you, which I think is a scum tell.

But Shiverer seemed to come down from his page rage a little on the previous page and he seemed genuinely frustrated. It's mostly gut, but I got a strong impression of just a very angry townie.

I didn't get that feeling with Idiotking. Rather, his unproductive attitude seems more constant, which makes me think it might not be genuine. In addition, both his Jack and his Shiverer vote were bad, where Shiverer only had one. As such, I think it's more telling and more indicative of a pattern.

[Thor665]

Any opinion of the Parama vote during that period?

Personally I read both IK and Shiverer as mostly just having a male organ measuring match and I can't really clarify in my own head as to whether one of them was scummy or not. However, Parama's vote really slid in out of nowhere and simply dropped the ad hominen attack on Shiverer so as to slip in as the third vote on the wagon. Considering how blatantly I feel Shiv and IK were emotionally worked up to some degree or other I was really off-put by Parama's vote reasons and timing and, of the three, consider him to have come away from the exchange with the most gain in scummy points. Thoughts?

[Idiotking]

If two players have a fundamental disagreement over what can be accepted as scummy, and one player acts in a manner that the other sees as scummy while proclaiming that it ISN'T scummy, then inevitably they will clash.

You say that my votes aren't motivated b a desire to catch scum, and instead by a desire to get rid of those who disagree with me. If the people who are disagreeing with me are promoting scummy play and calling it pro-town, or at the very least not scummy, then of course I'm going to vote them.

I don't see how my attitude was unproductive. I argued against their play, explained how it was wrong, and voted based on those conclusions and the reactions of the people to my cases. I think that every single one of my arguments against Shiv are valid. How, then, have I been unproductive?

[Thor665]

@Idiotking - do you then currently believe Shiverer and Jack are the top of your scum list as stands? If so, could you clarify briefly the reasons for each? At the moment mostly I see a disagreement about tunneling for Shiverer and a disagreement about gut reads for Shiverer and Jack - is that it?

[Idiotking]

My list is as stands:

Shiverer
DRK
Jack
Seven

From the top.

My reasons for suspecting Shiv are:

1. His original vote placed when he hadn't read the thread and didn't give a reason for it
2. Making every implication that he wasn't going to read the thread, and then lashing out against people who brought up the fact he hadn't read the thread, and then attempting to say that not reading a thread doesn't affect scumhunting ability
3. Supporting gut reads OVER cases, thereby giving scum an easy excuse for their votes
4. Reacting negatively to

any

resistance at all, on any issue.


My reasons on Jack are:

1. Active lurking
2. Insubstantial posting
3. Saying that gut reads are all that anyone should ever use

[Parama]

Any opinion of the Parama vote during that period?

Personally I read both IK and Shiverer as mostly just having a male organ measuring match and I can't really clarify in my own head as to whether one of them was scummy or not. However, Parama's vote really slid in out of nowhere and simply dropped the ad hominen attack on Shiverer so as to slip in as the third vote on the wagon. Considering how blatantly I feel Shiv and IK were emotionally worked up to some degree or other I was really off-put by Parama's vote reasons and timing and, of the three, consider him to have come away from the exchange with the most gain in scummy points. Thoughts?

I'm going to admit it, I sided completely with Idiotking during that argument. I voted Shiv when he started attacking the players and not the logic (772-774). Plus he had failed to answer the most relevant question I had put out in my initial response (waiting for a response was why I didn't vote Shiv in the first few posts I made).
Anyways, regardless of the discussion that went on, Jack's 799 is really bothering me. WIFOM whether it's scummy or not I guess, because we don't know the alignments of either player.
And at the end of the argument Shiv called out Seven, trying to deflect away... but Seven's response came shortly after... it's bugging me, Seven only seems to appear when called out for lurking.

FoS: Seven

.

[Shiverer]

Vote: evilsnail.

In case I don't get my precious wireless.

[Seven]

Seven only seems to appear when called out for lurking.

Can you point out where?

And

@IK

why are you voting for Jack if Shiv is your top suspect? Or DRK before Jack?

[DeathSauce]

In this game, the most interesting thing to me is that Seven keeps answering questions directed to others, but only a few others.

Care to point out where and who? (Especially if this is actually an element to your top secret case against me.)

Really? Do I have to? You got called out for it on D1 with SP and you just did it again a few pages back with DRK.

By the way 7, you asked me a few posts ago to answer your questions and I asked you to repeat them. Where are they?

[Idiotking]

Currently my vote's on Shiverer.

As for DRK being higher than Jack, DRK's been scummy for much longer. My main gripes about Jack don't surpass my main gripes for DRK, and I had my vote on DRK for a very long time. My vote on Jack was more of a heat-of-the-moment thing, though I still think it's very much a bad thing to abandon cases in favor of purely gut reads.

[evilsnail]

If two players have a fundamental disagreement over what can be accepted as scummy, and one player acts in a manner that the other sees as scummy while proclaiming that it ISN'T scummy, then inevitably they will clash.

Sure.

You say that my votes aren't motivated b a desire to catch scum, and instead by a desire to get rid of those who disagree with me. If the people who are disagreeing with me are promoting scummy play and calling it pro-town, or at the very least not scummy, then of course I'm going to vote them.

Why of course? If you find self-voting in RVS scummy and I don't and I do it (to elicit a reaction or something), that doesn't mean you should vote me. It's completely normal for people to have different views of what is scummy. You need to consider intent, a person's style of play. Ignoring this seems a cheap way of building a case. If Shiverer genuinely believes what he says, then I don't see how you can consider his behaviour a scum tell. The only relevant issue is then whether you believe Shiverer is lying. Do you believe he is?

I don't see how my attitude was unproductive. I argued against their play, explained how it was wrong, and voted based on those conclusions and the reactions of the people to my cases. I think that every single one of my arguments against Shiv are valid. How, then, have I been unproductive?

It's unproductive because it was an argument that was about personal differences of opinion, and not really relevant to most of the other players. Instead of agreeing to disagree or something along those lines, you (and Shiverer, for that matter) drew it out.

@Thor: Where the discussion between Shiverer and Idiotking bothers me is the point at which they start to base their votes on it. Voting someone for having a different opinion on what is scummy only makes sense if you think they're lying. The fact that neither of them took this into account at all makes me think neither of them was seriously interested in finding scum. Do you think it makes sense for a pro-town player to cast this kind of vote?

Re Parama's vote: Ad hominem attacks can be a scum tell, if a weak one. As scum, it can help to escalate a discussion to steer away from content and muddle the waters a little. Also, putting down their accuser can be an effective way for scum to weaken a case. Do you think overuse of ad hominem attacks are not a scum tell?

The timing is a little opportunistic, though, I'll grant you that. It would probably have been productive to stay out of the discussion too, but there was a bit of a dialogue between Parama and Shiv there.

[Thor665]

Voting someone for having a different opinion on what is scummy only makes sense if you think they're lying. The fact that neither of them took this into account at all makes me think neither of them was seriously interested in finding scum. Do you think it makes sense for a pro-town player to cast this kind of vote?

I will disagree that voting someone for disagreeing is clearly anti-town. What if I were to declare that I didn't feel it was scummy to lurk and cast votes without any explanation? If I do something you think is scummy you're going to likely vote for me whether or not I agree with you that it's scummy. That's what happened here, they basically were debating the relevance of some scumtells and general game strategies. I have yet to really see the player who fully agrees with the case that gets him lynched.

Do you think overuse of ad hominem attacks are not a scum tell?

Depends. I would say that if Shiverer had a long and storied history of ad hominem throughout the thread and that was part of a case on him I would have significantly less problem with it. Picking it out at a single point where I think it's fairly obvious emotions had run away with some people seems much more questionable in my mind especially now that Parama is maintaining it which suggests he himself did not feel he was emotionally colored in making the decision to vote Shiverer.

The timing is a little opportunistic, though, I'll grant you that. It would probably have been productive to stay out of the discussion too, but there was a bit of a dialogue between Parama and Shiv there.

As in many things, timing can be everything. I would note that simply because there was a dialogue did not obligate him to a vote. Also, note that he maintains the vote at this stage and defends the logic of the ad hominem being used within a small handful of isolated posts. Thus, the question becomes do you believe an isolated incident like that makes ad hom a worthwhile scumtell - and I do not, which is why I think it makes Parama look sketchy for doing it.

[DeathRowKitty]

First thing's first: HI CRYPTO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was trying to figure out who's alt you were, but I really had no clue.

In an effort to avoid writing a wall post in response to everything that's happened during the last few pages, I'll try to just mention important things:

Whoever's voting IK (I think someone is), he's town. Between the way he's playing in general and knowing what can just be pinned down to playstyle

because he's stalking me

, I can say this with a fair amount of certainty.

Re - Cases vs. Gut: Gut is (in general) how you find scum. Cases are how you validate your gut and/or sell it to the town. Going on gut is not a town tell, nor is it a scum tell. It's a tell that someone likes using gut.

Re - The New Wall Posts: I read them, but seriously guys, as nice as they are for you, they aren't helping anyone else. Arguing via walls of text just clutters the thread with posts that don't give anyone else reliable reads.

I read straight through the thread; I happened skim over some posts along the way.

Because Shiv used it to respond to IK 10 times, and it's got a massive grammar failure that I would have fixed in the quoting of myself. So

LOL: Shiverer

I declare Parama to be the official winner of the wall of text wars. Everyone else loses. This is non-negotiable.

I really don't think Shiv is scum. He hasn't done much of anything scummy as far as I'm concerned.

Not surprisingly, I would prefer if neither player gets modkilled.

Hmm, so apparently no one is voting IK right now.

To rehash important points (and adding a couple things I didn't mention):

tl;dr

• Shiv wagon is fail.
• IK is town.
• evilsnail/deathsauce would be a good lynch
• HI CRYPTO!!!

[DeathRowKitty]

EBWOP: quote fail

I read straight through the thread; I happened skim over some posts along the way.

Because Shiv used it to respond to IK 10 times, and it's got a massive grammar failure that I would have fixed in the quoting of myself. So LOL: Shiverer