Open 205 - Medical Mafia - Game Over Too Soon?

[Light]

hey guys. just finished reading (although only briefly skimmed through some) @_@

I don't have a better variation in mind, looker so i can't comment there.

After reading, i conclude that we should all go our separate ways for night 1. this circle thing proves to benefit the scum, and we don't want that do we? myko's 2nd and 3rd revisions aren't great either, there are still significant flaws in it.

Vote Count #3

mykonian (3) - Mindgamer, DiscoRoboto, XScorpion
XScorpion (2) - mykonian, SaintKerrigan
danny135 (1) - Looker

Not Voting (3) - danny135, Light, kyle99

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch.

[mykonian]

why did this sentence end up under my name, and why don't you vote mindgamer for this ( I know you won't, I just want to hear from you, why)

Because
1) I wasn't paying attention
2) Because coming from him, it's not serious.

Whereas it seems kind of like the thing you would say and mean it.

I still don't like how you are putting so much emphasis on night actions and very little during the day on who is scum and why we should vote them. Do you honestly not suspect anyone other than me? When I die, who are you voting next?

uhm, 2 things people. First, the bolded: if you are going to think I have bad intentions anyway, then there is little reason to wait for what I post, you are going to think anyway that I'm scum for it. The bolded shows tunneling: you expect me to be scum.

Further, Xscorp, you follow kyle nicely on the "mykonian is focussing on night actions, and not scumhunting"

Theory discussion made that we almost completely skipped the RVS, but that doesn't mean I already know by

PAGE 3

who is scum. Seriously, be happy I have one case, that even works on someone who fails anyway.

I could make an argument that Kyle is very wishy-washy about me, the whole game long, fueling the wagon, but staying of it anyway. I could make a case that mindgamer practically doesn't attack anyone but me. Practically nobody (apart from looker and StK) are seriously scumhunting.

But seen from earlier games (kyle xscorp) you aren't the most brilliant players.

@Kyle, theory discussion during the start of the game isn't bad. And you can't say I have only discussed theory

[mykonian]

hey guys. just finished reading (although only briefly skimmed through some) @_@

I don't have a better variation in mind, looker so i can't comment there.

After reading, i conclude that we should all go our separate ways for night 1. this circle thing proves to benefit the scum, and we don't want that do we? myko's 2nd and 3rd revisions aren't great either, there are still significant flaws in it.

do you propose trying to protect the townies, or do you propose to kill the scum?

[Mindgamer]

Are you stupid or are you scum?

Scum.

Why would that be? Because a lot players have no idea what makes someone scum.

Enlighten us, oh wise one!

Because you are lynching the person that stands out.

Moar Strawman.

Mindgamer's Post 69

- It seems you're basing your case off the fact that Myk's plan sucks, which isn't good. The best alternative would be to suggest a different, better plan

mindgamer, you have to make a better strategy to call mine bad.

It would be nice if you guys started reading the topic. Here is my plan:

As a matter of fact I do have an idea: We stop discussing the night and every individual does what they think is best, be it random or a strategy of their own. Here's why:

At this moment we have only one true advantage over the scum: We have so many protective roles that there is a high chance their night kill will fail. A failed scum kill is very valuable for the town. If the scum don't know what we are going to do, they can't act in accordance with it.

After each night, only the individual players will know something about their respective roles. THIS IS CRUCIAL. We don't want the scum to know what our roles are. We should treat this game like a closed setup, and act as self-cops for the moment. We don't mass claim in other games, do we? Why should we do that in this one? Only in LyLo should we make a massclaim.

Thoughts on this plan, please.

Further, a conspiracy is not based on facts, but on the feeling people are fooling you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_%28civil%29

You really haven't read the setup, have you?

That's right. I just posted '/in' in a random Queue. Then this Alduskkel dude send me a PM which said I'm Mafia Goon and I win when all your base are belong to us. I figured that's all I need to know so I didn't look at the setup.

[SaintKerrigan]

Unvote: XScorpion. Vote: Light.

You haven't been contributing to the scumhunting process, and I dislike your shift from "we definitely need a strategy to test our doctor skills" to "I think we should go our separate ways." It looks like trying to roll with the popular thinking.

@ Myk and Mind: You guys are descending into nitpicking each other's posts for any sign of error, be it by incorrect definition of a word, accusations of strawmanning, or otherwise. I don't feel that this is in the best interests of scumhunting. So, please, cut it out and start looking around.

I think we've lost Danny...

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Kyle99: You haven't been scumhunting much yourself. We're past the stage where you can post little content and get away with it.

FoS: Kyle99.

[mykonian]

StK. Why would town claim mafia. twice. in one post?

they won't. Nor will they use sarcasm when criticized, or even (in case of the theory) ignore it.

unvote vote mindgamer

Further, scum and town differ not in the mistakes they make, they differ in the motives they have. Town wants to find scum, they try to make the game understandable, but on the other hand, not predictable for scum. And they want the truth.

Scum wants to stay alive, wants the game to be orderly, and from this (mostly the first) follows that scum usually have the motive to be not noticed (WIFOM, but with a larger percentage to the scum hiding)

All the tells you have in the wiki come down to those motives becoming visible, but they only work in sometimes. Omgus, for example, is a inaccurate tell since townies who are "unfairly" under attack have the idea their accuser must be scum. Scum misuse it to get their attacker under pressure, but this isn't happening very often, so that tell basically doesn't work.

Bandwagonning, the adding of a vote to a bandwagon while you have given no explanation other then that you want to lynch that guy is a more effective tell, since this could show the motive of scum that they want to stay alive (and to direct the lynch on a towny), starting a wagon, on the other hand, is more risky for scum.

etc etc.

[DiscoRoboto]

I agree with individual night actions.

On my suspicions, I don't really trust Light but I'm not really going to pressure/commit to him yet.

I do think Mindgamer had a good point against Mykonian at first, but as there's no defending from it except 'Well I thought it was a good plan' et cetera, the thing has watered down. Please continue discussing

if

you have something new to say. Besides the plan, Mykonian hasn't been really scummy to me. Right now I think the plan is a strike against him thus I will keep my vote on him.

I can agree on what people are searching behind Xscorp, but it looks like a TvT to me. Not really getting scum vibes from Xscorp right now.

@the comment on mindgamers scum claim, I played multiple games with him, and it's just part of his playstyle... sarcasm, I guess. but seriously, scumhunting = voting someone who claimed 2x scum? Don't know what to think about that.

[SaintKerrigan]

StK. Why would town claim mafia. twice. in one post?

Why would scum claim mafia twice? Especially if you're maintaining that scum are trying to stay under the radar.

they won't. Nor will they use sarcasm when criticized, or even (in case of the theory) ignore it.

Town is just as able to use sarcasm as scum. It's a nulltell.

Further, scum and town differ not in the mistakes they make, they differ in the motives they have. Town wants to find scum, they try to make the game understandable, but on the other hand, not predictable for scum. And they want the truth.

Scum wants to stay alive, wants the game to be orderly, and from this (mostly the first) follows that scum usually have the motive to be not noticed (WIFOM, but with a larger percentage to the scum hiding)

This is all personal opinion on how scum and town operate, and is not universally applicable. People play different styles, and if you try to box scum or town into neat little boxes, you're going to find your scumdar failing a lot more often.

All the tells you have in the wiki come down to those motives becoming visible, but they only work in sometimes. Omgus, for example, is a inaccurate tell since townies who are "unfairly" under attack have the idea their accuser must be scum. Scum misuse it to get their attacker under pressure, but this isn't happening very often, so that tell basically doesn't work.

Bandwagonning, the adding of a vote to a bandwagon while you have given no explanation other then that you want to lynch that guy is a more effective tell, since this could show the motive of scum that they want to stay alive (and to direct the lynch on a towny), starting a wagon, on the other hand, is more risky for scum.

etc etc.

I agree that the Wiki tells need to be taken with a grain of salt. That being said, I don't see how this is helping to find scum. The claims from other people that you aren't doing much scumhunting are starting to ring a bell...

Look beyond Mindgamer, Mykonian. What do you see?

[SaintKerrigan]

@ DiscoRoboto: Why don't you trust Light?

You consider Mykonian's plan to be a scumtell, then? Why?

Why does XScorp v others look like TvT?

[DiscoRoboto]

I don't trust Light mainly because of his agreement with mykonians plan before even really thinking it through. Mykonians plan had several flaws, with one being that a mafia can influence the circle in such way that he can protect his mafia buddies. Now the logical procedure would be that his mafia buddy would support him in his plan so he could make the circle profitable for mafia, right?
Besides that he is really trying to stay out of the spotlight a bit too much. Just vibes there though.

The scumtell on the plan is obvious. Mindgamer pointed it out already, the plan is profitable to scum only if the scum itself makes it, and Mykonian immediatly suggests doing it, while not thinking other options through (like my plan (electing somebody)).

Xscrop vs others looks like TvT because I don't really get any scum vibes from either of you guys involved in the argument. Just thinking a bunch of misguided townies right now.

[mykonian]

@the comment on mindgamers scum claim, I played multiple games with him, and it's just part of his playstyle... sarcasm, I guess. but seriously, scumhunting = voting someone who claimed 2x scum? Don't know what to think about that.

@StK. A scumclaim is indeed an overrated tell. But people get lynched for it.

This opposed to sarcasm. Sarcasm is stepping away from criticism, with a joke. It is avoiding the problem. It is actually quite a good tell, but not an accepted one.


Further, I was asked how to find scum. What I said was general, only affected by WIFOM further (scum wanting to look town), which makes that this game isn't easy.

And as you can see, I have my opinions about Kyle and Xscorp already there. That means I have arguments against 3 people now. I think it is because I have a lot of posts that you see a lot of theory.

There is one problem with my arguments. They are all on "weaker" players.

[mykonian]

I don't trust Light mainly because of his agreement with mykonians plan before even really thinking it through. Mykonians plan had several flaws, with one being that

a mafia can influence the circle in such way that he can protect his mafia buddies.

Now the logical procedure would be that his mafia buddy would support him in his plan so he could make the circle profitable for mafia, right?
Besides that he is really trying to stay out of the spotlight a bit too much. Just vibes there though.

The scumtell on the plan is obvious. Mindgamer pointed it out already, the plan is profitable to scum only if the scum itself makes it, and Mykonian immediatly suggests doing it, while not thinking other options through (like my plan (electing somebody)).

Xscrop vs others looks like TvT because I don't really get any scum vibes from either of you guys involved in the argument. Just thinking a bunch of misguided townies right now.

Myko wanted to avoid the bolded.
myko of course thought about a towny vote, but didn't like the consequeses: scum knows who to kill, and still can influence the making of the circle. Further, systems like that are usually doomed because they don't come to a decision.

So ehh, what is the obvious scumtell here? that the plan can be manipulated? Who knows, maybe lynches are manipulated by scum? lets not do them then!

Horrible logic, Disco

[DiscoRoboto]

...How can I even respond to that?

You just... really? I mean... what is this I don't even-

[Looker]

Alright guys, I still think mykonian is possibly scum. Trying to focus on only the night-action instead of scumhunting is scummeh.

What about not focusing on anything at all?

vote Danny

and I encourage you to do the same.

Practically nobody (apart from looker and StK) are seriously scumhunting.

Bet you never thought you'd ever say that, right?

Vote Danny

Mindgamer's Post 78 -

Okay, very good, you have an alternate plan, so why are you still voting Mykonian? He had a plan, it sucked, you proposed a new one, and now we can move on.

Vote Danny

I think we've lost Danny...

>>>

Vote Danny

<<<

but seriously, scumhunting = voting someone who claimed 2x scum? Don't know what to think about that.

It concerns me more that Mindgamer would actually

claim

scum twice. If he's not scum, then he's a disgruntled towny that more than likely doesn't care to help seeing as he's...disgruntled. Either way, I believe our play on words and bickering is distracting from the overall point - lynching scum.

Vote Danny

---

People who I'd actually like to see

Vote Danny

:

- Kyle
- Mykonian
~Mindgamer (I don't know about this one; L-1's kinda iffy right now)

---

VOTE DANNY!

[SaintKerrigan]

Looker, why are you voting for someone that I'm betting is going to be replaced? His only post was to confirm. Why not vote for someone like Light, who seems to be active lurking?

[Mindgamer]

Danny! Danny! Danny!

Why suddenly the noise about Danny, Looker? He isn't here, he's probably going to be replaced, so why are you talking about him? Are you trying to take our attention away from something? Oh yes, you are:

Mindgamer's Post 78 -

Okay, very good, you have an alternate plan, so why are you still voting Mykonian? He had a plan, it sucked, you proposed a new one, and now we can move on.

Vote Danny

In my opinion, Mykonian is scum because of his plan and everyone knows I think this. Why are you so desperate to take my attention away from this? Scumbuddies with Mykonian perhaps?

Either way, I believe our play on words and bickering is distracting from the overall point - lynching scum.

Vote Danny

You want to lynch scum! What a wonderful initiative! So you want to bandwagon someone who isn't even here! What?
What do you expect to gain from such a bandwagon? Pressure won't make Danny magically return. I think it's just your way of wasting our time. I'm calling a scumteam of Mykonian/Looker.

Oh, and SaintKerrigan is right. I didn't notice because I was tunneling on Mykonian, but Light has posted... nothing. Completely nothing.

Unvote. Vote: Light

I want some content. Now.

[mykonian]

the above post is scummy.

First, he is

consistent

by finding me scum, even accusing people who don't agree of being scum (Looker). He even continues with attacking Looker....

and bandwagons Light. That is just weak.


And Disco, horrible logic is done by both scum and town, please tell me what you think of Kyle.

@StK

if you are scum, how would you be caught (as in, what are your scumtells?)

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Mykonian: Why would I want to disclose that kind of information? Even if I did, would you believe me? If you really want to know, go meta me on my scum games and decide for yourself what my scumtells are.

[DiscoRoboto]

and bandwagons Light. That is just weak.

Says the one who wants to bandwagon danny?

And Disco, horrible logic is done by both scum and town, please tell me what you think of Kyle.

Ignoring the first part as it's obviously the most

moronic

thing you can possibly say, I will ask you:
What is there to think about Kyle?
He once denied putting you at L-1, which was the correct course of action, then he suspected a looker+myko scum team (which is oh so coincidentily also suspected by mindgamer atm) theres not much to think except for what he's done seems fine so far.

what do YOU think about kyle?

HOW CAN YOU CALL LOGIC HORRIBLE IF YOU DONT EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT IT WAS ALL ABOUT.

sigh, i got that out of my system.

[mykonian]

and bandwagons Light. That is just weak.

Says the one who wants to bandwagon danny?

and where have I said that. I know looker did. But I didn't. And even if I did, that doesn't mean Mindgamer isn't scummy for it. ad hominem.

And Disco, horrible logic is done by both scum and town, please tell me what you think of Kyle.

Ignoring the first part as it's obviously the most

moronic

thing you can possibly say, I will ask you:
What is there to think about Kyle?
He once denied putting you at L-1, which was the correct course of action, then he suspected a looker+myko scum team (which is oh so coincidentily also suspected by mindgamer atm) theres not much to think except for what he's done seems fine so far.

what do YOU think about kyle?

HOW CAN YOU CALL LOGIC HORRIBLE IF YOU DONT EVEN UNDERSTAND WHAT IT WAS ALL ABOUT.

sigh, i got that out of my system.

way of totally not answering the question. My answer is actually in the thread already, I advice you to read it.

[mykonian]

@ Mykonian: Why would I want to disclose that kind of information? Even if I did, would you believe me? If you really want to know, go meta me on my scum games and decide for yourself what my scumtells are.

Town doesn't mind giving this information. Please answer the question, StK.

[SaintKerrigan]

@ Mykonian: Why would I want to disclose that kind of information? Even if I did, would you believe me? If you really want to know, go meta me on my scum games and decide for yourself what my scumtells are.

Town doesn't mind giving this information. Please answer the question, StK.

But I'm not always going to be town. It's not in my best interests as a player to disclose my weaknesses. As I stated before, you are free to look up my meta, check my scum games, and see how I play then to determine my scumtells. I will not, however, tell you outright.

[SaintKerrigan]

EBWOP: Why are you asking this question of me in particular, Mykonian?

[kyle99]

Meh, I'm not supporting a danny lynch simply because lurkers will be replaced, and lynching lurkers usually ends in a mislynch anyway.

Here's my list of people and me current reads:

SCUM
Mykonian
Looker
XScorpion
Light
Mindgamer
Disco
SaintKerrigan
Kyle99
TOWN

I have a null-read on Danny because he has appeared to have flaked from the site.

Mykonian is starting to seem slightly less scummy as I read, but he's still my top lynch-candidate, and some of his plans just don't make sense and are fairly scummy.

Looker went from saying that Danny was probably town to encouraging everyone to bandwagon him without even giving any reasononing. He's inactive, and he'll be replaced. Flaking is a null-tell, not a scum-tell.

XScorpion has come off appearing slightly scummy, but I've played with XScorpion-town before and his current playstyle fits this meta well.

This is where my list starts to get more towny, and light seems towny. Would like to see a bit more from him though.

Mindgamer seems fairly town, his posts have good logic and hasn't acted scummy at all.

Disco seems town, his posts are all excellent and he seems to be legitamently scumhunting.

I'm pretty confident that SaintKerrigan is town, he is definatly legitamently scumhunting and his posts are all well thoughtout and use good logic.

Kyle99 is obv-town.


Interested to hear more from Light and Danny's replacement.